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When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

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Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...
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Great8 said:
I think his creativity is fantastic but he still doesn’t have a defensive bone in his body and his direct opponent can hurt him at times.
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If half the team played with his desperation Carlton would have won by 5 goals. His defensive game was fine, Plowman on the other hand [emoji107]
 
I posted this on another forum last week, it was seen as overly negative and misguided, you be the judge :



THE LORDS PRAYER : A Different Look At Our Playing List

With a number of the so-called experts in the media suggesting we are on the up in 2021, I've been reviewing our playing list for the past month or so trying to see where our next block of improvement is going to come from.

Like many others, I have been quite interested in the way our list has been turned over and new players have been brought in to the club. However, I have always had that niggling thought in the back of my mind "what if they don't kick on" ??

I decided to break the list down into smaller bite size chunks so it is easier to put them under the microscope as well as work out what we are lacking.

Unfortunately, my findings don't make for exciting reading nor do they fill me with too much immediate enthusiasm.

For the record, if a player hasn't delivered to a high level, then they are not getting a pass mark from me until they do. For far too long, we have had plenty of players at the club who have masqueraded as "real" when all they have ever offered is "potential" instead.

Naturally some people will disagree with my views so I'm interested to read the feedback and counter arguments.


DEFENCE

Key Position (196cm +)
Jacob Weitering
Liam Jones

Facts : Weitering is a bone-fide A-Grader but Jones is just filling a hole whilst we find a replacement, of genuine concern is that we don’t have any other genuine prospects waiting in the wings

Verdict : this is a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed and quickly

Tweener (191cm-195cm)
Caleb Marchbank
Lachie Plowman
Tom Williamson

Facts : Marchbank can’t get on the park, Williamson showed the other night that he is not a long-term option and I’ve never been a fan of Plowman

Verdict : Plowman should be traded and the other two face delisting at year’s end, this is a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed and quickly

Mid-Sized (185-190cm)
Luke Parks
Nic Newman
Sam Docherty

Facts : Newman is a solid soldier, Docherty is a shadow of his former self pre-knee injuries & Parks is an untried rookie

Verdict : if there was a way to put Docherty out to pasture I would, this is a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed and quickly

Small (under 185cm)
Adam Saad
Sam Petrevski-Seton

Facts : picking up Saad has been a godsend for our defence but Petrevski-Seton has not lived up to the hype thus far

Verdict : play Petrevski-Seton in a position that better suits his strengths or trade him at year’s end, this area is not at emergency levels just yet but does need some serious focus


MIDFIELD/ONBALL

Big-Bodied (196cm +)
Patrick Cripps

Facts : Cripps is captain and the marquee player on our list, when he was out injured last year or had very little impact in games, it forced the other players in the midfield to lift their output dramatically to cover for him. However, when he is in the team, the others just sit back and rest on their laurels. Also, Cripps now tries to do too much

Verdict : as strange & unpalatable as it sounds, I’d trade Cripps to Fremantle for a player like Cerra & a couple of first rounders, we need to spread the workload instead of constantly relying on him, the recruiting and list management people need to find another option or two as well

Tweener (191cm-195cm)
Brodie Kemp
Mathew Kennedy
Will Setterfield

Facts : Setterfield has been a non-event to date, Kennedy is clearly out of favour with the hierarchy & Kemp is yet to debut due to his pre-draft injury

Verdict : realistically, we can only pin our hopes on Kemp at this stage but it has to be viewed as ’high risk’, Kennedy will more than likely be shown the door this year and Setterfield the year after so this is a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed and quickly

Mid-Sized (185cm-190cm)
Jack Carroll
Jack Newnes
Lochie O’Brien
Paddy Dow
Zac Williams

Facts : if you take Williams out of that group, it is bordering on deplorable, there is nothing of substance whatsoever

Verdict : Dow & O’Brien have until the end of this year to step up to a much higher level or they have to be shown the door, Newnes is only a cameo on the list until a better option arrives & Carroll is a newbie, this is a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed and quickly

Small (under 185cm)
Ed Curnow
Liam Stocker
Mathew Cottrell
Sam Ramsay
Sam Walsh

Facts : Walsh aside, this group is extremely threadbare

Verdict : Walsh is A-Grade and should be ‘elite’ by year’s end & E. Curnow has one more season in him, Ramsay & Stocker must be given games this year to fast-track their development & Cottrell is just clogging up the list, this is a serious deficiency that needs to be reviewed and addressed


FORWARDS

Key Position (196cm +)
Harry McKay
Levi Casboult

Facts : Levi has no shelf life at all & Harry is still making some the same brain-fade decisions he always has, if Harry doesn’t make the grade (and there are some serious doubts right now), the cupboard is completely bare with no apprentices on the list

Verdict : let Levi retire at the end of the season & give Harry a massive kick up the jaxy, this is a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed and quickly

Tweener (191cm-195cm)
Charlie Curnow
Jack Silvagni
Mitch McGovern
Oscar McDonald

Facts : McGovern is an overpriced dud, there is no hiding from that, C. Curnow may never ever make it due to injury, JSOS is a deadest trier but does have some limitations whilst McDonald cannot be considered a long term replacement

Verdict : this is a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed and quickly

Mid-Sized (185cm-190cm)
David Cuningham
Jack Martin
Sam Philp

Facts : Martin is a class act but has to develop some consistency from week to week, Cuningham is far too inconsistent and not damaging enough on the scoreboard & who knows if Philp will graduate

Verdict : this is a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed and quickly

Small (under 185cm)
Corey Durdin
Eddie Betts
Josh Honey
Lachie Fogarty
Marc Murphy
Mathew Owies
Michael Gibbons
Zac Fisher

Facts : even though there are 8 names on that list, only Fisher & Gibbons can be viewed as a long-term options, Betts is about to retire as is Murphy, Fogarty is still an unknown quality (serious doubts are creeping in), Durdin, Owies & Honey have L-plates on so who knows if they will salute

Verdict : we have lacked crumbing goalkickers for nearly two decades and are yet to unveil one who can consistently deliver a cross a whole season, this area is not at emergency levels just yet but does need some serious focus


RUCK
Marc Pittonet
Tom De Koning

Facts : De Koning is the great white hope and for good reason too, Pittonet has way too many flaws in his technique and onfield output to be considered a viable long-term fixture, outside of those two, there are no other bone-fide ruckman on the list which is a complete & utter disgrace

Verdict : this area is at an emergency level & requires need some serious focus, at worst, the club needs to secure at least one quality young project player who can be given time to develop his craft and be used when injuries hit
 
Spanish_Fly said:
Couldn't believe all the hype and backslapping after last weeks loss to Richmond as if it was some sort of achievement to be quite close. They'd had 5 extra weeks of pre season over Richmond, this is huge. If you want to see what 5 extra weeks of pre season should look like have a look at Adelaide and Swans performances last week with similar advantages. If Carlton were going to be any good they would have given Richmond a touch up last week who looked very rusty.

Their main issue is still too many poor players, must be 10 players from last nights game that wouldnt get anywhere near a best 22 from any of last years finals sides.
Plowman, Dow, Casboult, Gibbons (even though he did ok last night), Fischer, Pittonet, Settlefield, Williamson, Petrevski-Seton, Newnes and probably even add in Murphy in the role he played last night.

Pretty ordinary best 22 with these blokes all getting a game, they need all these guys stepping up atleast 1, possible 2 levels from C-D graders to B Graders before they'll become a genuine top 8 side.
Click to expand...

Not discounting the point that there are players in the current best 22 that wouldn’t fit into the side of a finalist from last year, you have rocks in your head if you think Fisher wouldn’t crack into those sides. As for a few of the others, I’d bank on a change of environment doing wonders for their career.

a best 22 doesn’t equate to 22 guns. I could pluck out a player in each of last year’s finals sides that is serviceable at best. It’s fundamentally about players playing their roles and aligning with an effective game plan.
 
Jcpdragonx said:
Just accept reality mate. You support Cartlon why would you expect anything good
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We will finish comforably head of the Crows on the ladder.

Where do you get the idea that Saad is not a team player???
 

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GC2015 said:
Serious question. Why does the media give this club so much credit and regularly talk about them being on the verge of jumping into a finals position? After tonight's result, they've started the last nine seasons 0-2.

Their results in the last 20 years:

2001 - 5th (semi final)
2002 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2003 - 15th
2004 - 11th
2005 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2006 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2007 - 15th
2008 - 11th
2009 - 7th (elimination final)
2010 - 8th (elimination final)

2011 - 5th (semi final)
2012 - 10th
2013 - 8th (semi final)
2014 - 13th
2015 - 18th (wooden spoon)
2016 - 14th
2017 - 16th
2018 - 18th (wooden spoon)
2019 - 16th
2020 - 11th

Three finals wins, five finals appearances (their most recent of which they didn't really earn), five wooden spoons, nine bottom 4 finishes and six mid-ladder finishes that were outside the finals.

Essendon cop a lot of grief for their lack of success in the last 20 years yet they've had double the amount of finals wins Carlton have had in the last 20 years and have received 1/5 of the amount of wooden spoons Carlton have.

I know my club has performed poorly for the last 10 years as well but the media have never really talked us up as finals chances but Carlton are constantly getting pumped up by the media.

I don't get it. What's with the media love affair for Carlton?
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Still don't get the fascination with the 'won a final' thing. Who cares about winning a final if you don't win a flag?

Now days since you won a flag is a much more pertinent number.

Carlton are at 9309 btw.
 
00Stinger said:
It's only taken 8 days for the Carlton supporters to have their smugness removed
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#godees have not won a flag before the invention of colour TV and man landed on the Moon. You lot need to pipe down until you actually can win a flag (if ever)
 
Don't get the hate for Cripps. On-field he's been Datsun 180b, but off-field he's Mercedes. Heavily involved in Carlton's recruitment over the last year and instrumental in signing Clayton Oliver as a Blue from 2022 onwards. That's worth at least another 30+ handballs a game. Give 'em another year or so.
 
Elmer_Judd said:
#godees have not won a flag before the invention of colour TV and man landed on the Moon. You lot need to pipe down until you actually can win a flag (if ever)
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First colour TV demonstration was 1944, we beat its invention by a good 20 years thanks.
 
Toump Ass said:
Don't get the hate for Cripps. On-field he's been Datsun 180b, but off-field he's Mercedes. Heavily involved in Carlton's recruitment over the last year and instrumental in signing Clayton Oliver as a Blue from 2022 onwards. That's worth at least another 30+ handballs a game. Give 'em another year or so.
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No hate at all, just bewilderment and some sadness at the waste.
 

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Toump Ass said:
First colour TV demonstration was 1944, we beat its invention by a good 20 years thanks.
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Touche, well played old man.

Seriously got nothing against The Dees, out of all the remaining Vic clubs, you guys are the ones that I don't mind the least.

It's a bit frustrating getting trolled by one of your own though (although probably with some justification to be fair)
 
SOS was a diaster. Selling hope by bringing highly touted juniors who failed previously.

They need to slash the losing culture with guys like Murphy, Curnow shown the door and bring in a Hodge type who can sell a winning culture.

Cut these GWS rejects as well who clearly aren’t up to it.
 
10571z said:
SOS was a diaster. Selling hope by bringing highly touted juniors who failed previously.

They need to slash the losing culture with guys like Murphy, Curnow shown the door and bring in a Hodge type who can sell a winning culture.

Cut these GWS rejects as well who clearly aren’t up to it.
Click to expand...

Agree a little bit Murphy, but really harsh on Ed Curnow who is a consummate pro.

Our lack of proper development of young players and draftees (IE Dow and LOB and Stocker) is really disturbing. Not sure if they were bad picks by SOS or more a failure of our culture and system.
 

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GC2015 said:
Serious question. Why does the media give this club so much credit and regularly talk about them being on the verge of jumping into a finals position? After tonight's result, they've started the last nine seasons 0-2.

Their results in the last 20 years:

2001 - 5th (semi final)
2002 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2003 - 15th
2004 - 11th
2005 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2006 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2007 - 15th
2008 - 11th
2009 - 7th (elimination final)
2010 - 8th (elimination final)

2011 - 5th (semi final)
2012 - 10th
2013 - 8th (semi final)
2014 - 13th
2015 - 18th (wooden spoon)
2016 - 14th
2017 - 16th
2018 - 18th (wooden spoon)
2019 - 16th
2020 - 11th

Three finals wins, five finals appearances (their most recent of which they didn't really earn), five wooden spoons, nine bottom 4 finishes and six mid-ladder finishes that were outside the finals.

Essendon cop a lot of grief for their lack of success in the last 20 years yet they've had double the amount of finals wins Carlton have had in the last 20 years and have received 1/5 of the amount of wooden spoons Carlton have.

I know my club has performed poorly for the last 10 years as well but the media have never really talked us up as finals chances but Carlton are constantly getting pumped up by the media.

I don't get it. What's with the media love affair for Carlton?
Click to expand...
So Carlton are statistically as likely to win the wooden spoon as they are making finals? Sums up their last two decades.
Qualifying for only 4 finals in 20 years is a horrible record.
 
Jezzitizle said:
They’ll get an injury ravaged Freo at Marvel and probably get the win to start the season (and hype train) up again.

Cripps may look better as the weather worsens, and the games become a little less quick and clean.

Would say I don’t want him at Freo though, cost (at least in cap, even if he moved as a fa) will be well above return.

He’d look a lot better playing with a dominant tap ruckman, so the dirty birds with nicnat a better option.
Click to expand...
Not required.
 
RAPPA said:
Not discounting the point that there are players in the current best 22 that wouldn’t fit into the side of a finalist from last year, you have rocks in your head if you think Fisher wouldn’t crack into those sides. As for a few of the others, I’d bank on a change of environment doing wonders for their career.

a best 22 doesn’t equate to 22 guns. I could pluck out a player in each of last year’s finals sides that is serviceable at best. It’s fundamentally about players playing their roles and aligning with an effective game plan.
Click to expand...

I agree all sides have role players, but Fisher isn't a small forward, and he's still to slight to play midfield, thats the only reason they are playing him forward. Which top 8 teams from last years best 22 is he getting a game at? Maybe Pies and/or Bulldogs, but no certainty for either. He's not replacing any of the small forwards at the other 6 clubs.

And well done finding 1 player from the 10 I listed that might possibly get a game in a decent side, doesn't detract from the overall point I was making.
 
10571z said:
SOS was a diaster. Selling hope by bringing highly touted juniors who failed previously.

They need to slash the losing culture with guys like Murphy, Curnow shown the door and bring in a Hodge type who can sell a winning culture.

Cut these GWS rejects as well who clearly aren’t up to it.
Click to expand...

Have you got the Hodge equivalent who is available, can be immediately placed on the list who can sell a winning culture? You don't sell a winning culture, you build it. And you build a culture based on a sound game plan and players buying in to that plan and executing their role.

It's not as if there are game breaking players sitting on the sidelines, not getting a game because someone like Murphy is getting a game. The fact is, sweet FA can be done about the list until the end of the year. Until then, there are three things that will have a bearing: 1. game day / coaching tactics 2. player performances 3. Injuries.
 
Farang83150 said:
When in reality it was those clubs hitting the jackpot in finding another club to unload those players on!
Click to expand...

It was a bit of both in reality. Lots of first round picks who could have been good, but were already behind the 8-ball when they got to Carlton either due to injury or long stints in the NEAFL.

The strategy was fine, execution has been poor.

Our development is what really needs to be put under the microscope. Apart from Walsh, Weitering and McKay we don't have any other players who look like becoming some of the best in their position. 2 of these guys were former Pick 1's, the other is a top 10 pick.
 
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