Analysis Where are we actually at as a club?

[plugger66]

We have had a very disappointing year , heartbreaking really - but knowing where we came from before Ratten we are heading in the right direction.

Our spine is just about there Howard - XXXX - Steele - XXXX - King
Find those 2 missing pieces that can mark and we are set.
If you have a contested marking CHB and CHF they can get out of all kinds of problems.
All of a sudden they midfielders who can't kick are somehow finding these big guys are marking everything.
Imagine if we had Darcy Moore at CHB and Naughton at CHF , we would be unbeatable with only 2 additions to the side.
Darcy Moore is a RFA next year and the Pies could well get rid of him now get more for him.

Howard is a disappointing player if he gets the wrong match up. Gets a fair few goals kicked on him. Having said that the spine isn’t the issue. Not sure the dogs have a great spine. It’s simply one maybe 2 issues. Our midfield isn’t very good and we get bugger all run off the half back and wings. I really dislike how we use hill. He is an ordinary kick but we now try to use him way to much. We need another in out mid with pace and we need an in out winger not a complete receiving winger. Also a great user off half back.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Where are we actually at you ask? Linton Street, Moorabbin

 

[gringo2011]

Howard is a disappointing player if he gets the wrong match up. Gets a fair few goals kicked on him. Having said that the spine isn’t the issue. Not sure the dogs have a great spine. It’s simply one maybe 2 issues. Our midfield isn’t very good and we get bugger all run off the half back and wings. I really dislike how we use hill. He is an ordinary kick but we now try to use him way to much. We need another in out mid with pace and we need an in out winger not a complete receiving winger. Also a great user off half back.

I remember someone saying that Darcy Moore had got huge coaches votes and won a media player of the week but his direct opponent had kicked 6 goals or something crazy. Defence isn't one guy on one guy anymore I guess.

Yeah, we don't have a strong enough midfield to carry a pure outside receiver.

 

[DarkSaint]

I remember someone saying that Darcy Moore had got huge coaches votes and won a media player of the week but his direct opponent had kicked 6 goals or something crazy. Defence isn't one guy on one guy anymore I guess.

Yeah, we don't have a strong enough midfield to carry a pure outside receiver.

Howard is decent enough. We are continually undersized and to me it looks like he tries to do too much.

You are deff not wrong when it comes to overlapping from our wingers and half backs. I think we are one of the worse teams going around. You just have to watch other teams to see how much the whole of defence get involved in overlapping from the half back line.

If Sinclair doesn't do it, then we are stuffed.

 

[lewdogs]

Interesting discussion.

Would start by saying the club itself is in a great spot. Probably the best I can remember, back at Moorabbin, seems to be getting more stable.

The team...

I tend to think the issue isn't our depth. I don't think we have a core group of leaders that can steer the ship and get us to play in a way that wins games. When we play fast attacking footy we look great at times, been some great footy to watch. When things aren't going our way we sometimes struggle to find another way to win. Then there has also been other elements of close losses, bad luck through injuries and a tough draw.

I think we've seen exactly why we signed up guys like Frawley and Hannebery. They are leaders that can help to set a certain mode or way of playing. Unfortunately those guys haven't been able to get on the park along with Geary.

I'm not sure about our youth. It might be good, it might not be. The one player I'm certain of is King. The rest could go either way.

We really need a few players to step up next year. Sinclair is a guy I've been impressed with. Highmore is one to watch. Clark I think is the one we really need to get going. But we need more. I don't have much faith in guys like Billings, Ross, Membrey being any better. They are all solid players and will remain so. But we need a core group of gun leader types to take us forward. That's my take.

I've gone off Ratts a bit but I'm open-minded. Whatever happens he has next year. For him to survive we need to become more consistent which in my opinion comes back to the point above, we need a core group of consistent good players to lead the side, which means internal improvement and recruiting/trading for those types.

 

[plugger66]

I remember someone saying that Darcy Moore had got huge coaches votes and won a media player of the week but his direct opponent had kicked 6 goals or something crazy. Defence isn't one guy on one guy anymore I guess.

Yeah, we don't have a strong enough midfield to carry a pure outside receiver.

No it’s certainly team defence but when left one out he struggles on certain types of players. He isn’t the problem though.

 

[plugger66]

Interesting discussion.

Would start by saying the club itself is in a great spot. Probably the best I can remember, back at Moorabbin, seems to be getting more stable.

The team...

I tend to think the issue isn't our depth. I don't think we have a core group of leaders that can steer the ship and get us to play in a way that wins games. When we play fast attacking footy we look great at times, been some great footy to watch. When things aren't going our way we sometimes struggle to find another way to win. Then there has also been other elements of close losses, bad luck through injuries and a tough draw.

I think we've seen exactly why we signed up guys like Frawley and Hannebery. They are leaders that can help to set a certain mode or way of playing. Unfortunately those guys haven't been able to get on the park along with Geary.

I'm not sure about our youth. It might be good, it might not be. The one player I'm certain of is King. The rest could go either way.

We really need a few players to step up next year. Sinclair is a guy I've been impressed with. Highmore is one to watch. Clark I think is the one we really need to get going. But we need more. I don't have much faith in guys like Billings, Ross, Membrey being any better. They are all solid players and will remain so. But we need a core group of gun leader types to take us forward. That's my take.

I've gone off Ratts a bit but I'm open-minded. Whatever happens he has next year. For him to survive we need to become more consistent which in my opinion comes back to the point above, we need a core group of consistent good players to lead the side, which means internal improvement and recruiting/trading for those types.

Yep forgot about leadership. Everyone has a go about recruit hanners and obviously it hasn’t work but the club obviously knew we lacked leadership. We still do. I’m still pissed off not one leader went up to Higgins before that last shot against Sydney. Blind Freddy could see he rushed the previous kick at goal. Unfortunately I still rate our depth as poor. That doesn’t mean it can’t change over preseason if some younger kids come on to at least a grade. I know Connelly excites people but he is a D grade player at the moment. Nothing wrong with that but it’s an example of the type of player who needs to become a C grader or better

 

[bergholt]

I know Connelly excites people but he is a D grade player at the moment. Nothing wrong with that but it’s an example of the type of player who needs to become a C grader or better

Totally, but he’s young and shows signs, so he could jump to B inside the next couple of years if we’re lucky.

Unlike Billings, Dunstan, Ross - who are C+ to B and we know they’re all at their ceilings. Hence we let them go if the comp is right, or keep them at a reasonable price but not higher.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Where are we actually at you ask? Linton Street, Moorabbin

Thank fk for that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Miha]

Why can't St Kilda be based in St Kilda? I'd head down for a latte and buy a scarf

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

We have a proven KPD in the team...one Josh Battle

26

Josh Battle

Age

25

Ht

193cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.9

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.4

4star

MG

196.8

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.8

3star

MG

142.8

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

175.6

3star

, play him Doogs and Highmore as your talls, Paton Sinclair and Webster as your lockdown defenders and HBF's.
I would Webster a run on the ball just quietly...have always thought that, tough as nails has a crack and rip a low bullet like pass.

 

[plugger66]

Totally, but he’s young and shows signs, so he could jump to B inside the next couple of years if we’re lucky.

Unlike Billings, Dunstan, Ross - who are C+ to B and we know they’re all at their ceilings. Hence we let them go if the comp is right, or keep them at a reasonable price but not higher.

Nothing wrong with B and C graders in your side. What’s the right deal? That’s the question. Dunstan can hopefully be replaced by bytel as they both can’t play. Think he goes. Pretty sure we have no billings replacement of because of his bad foot injury compensation won’t be worth it. I think we need to look at his form before the injury. It was very good. Ross won’t get anything of value so he probably stays.

 

[gringo2011]

Nothing wrong with B and C graders in your side. What’s the right deal? That’s the question. Dunstan can hopefully be replaced by bytel as they both can’t play. Think he goes. Pretty sure we have no billings replacement of because of his bad foot injury compensation won’t be worth it. I think we need to look at his form before the injury. It was very good. Ross won’t get anything of value so he probably stays.

Having older players helps young players come on too. Under Richo we did a Melbourne where we thought kids would develop together but it makes it much slower and harder with out some older harder bodies around them. Billings, Ross etc might not be the future but they will help bring through our future. If we are happy to have a few years in the bottom 6 you get rid of the competitive older guys. We shouldn't over pay them but then I can't work out how we have so much cap tied up any way.

 

[El HOSS]

I agree with a few on here that we aren't as far away as it seems. We've just not played anywhere near the level anticipated by the media preseason. Who, I think, grossly overestimated our performance last year. We got a huge spike playing the equivalent of T20 cricket in a hub environment. I expected a dip and missing the 8 because we had too many key outs in the preseason and I expected some arrogance to creep in with some younger players who haven't kicked on.

This years' performance is closer to what I expected last out of 2020 incidentally. There are some glaring gaps and strategic issues that need to be addressed, ruck post Ryder, flaky half forwards and skills (particularly i50s and goal kicking) which are a massive issues. They are really holding us back now and will if we don't come up with a solution.

I'm undecided on Ratts but I like that he's willing to move magnets around and has managed to get us over the line or to winning positions in a number of games that I didn't think we're possible. He deserves next year, at least, to show what he can do. I don't think we gain much by dumping him next year unless Clarko is willing or we win 6 games in total. Sure, I'm baffled by some player positions including Battle and Hill. It's hard to comment on assistants from the outside, what Sexton offers and does is completely beyond me though....

I'm optimistic and confident in our drafting and list management. I hope we let Dunny and JB go in FA. Hit the 2nd round and find some gems. I'd like Seb to go to but if he's staying for a modest salary it's hard to complain. Those 3 aren't propelling us to the promised land for mine....

 

[MightySaint]

I don't harbor too many grand designs on winning a flag. If it happens it will be amazing, but there are so many elements of luck that go into it, as well as good management, that its a bonus.
What shits me to death though is non competitive garbage and inconsistency. It is completely unacceptable to be 10 years into a rebuild. This season is easily the most disappointing season in my time supporting the saints (1996). I can handle the team being crap and having a plan. I can't handle having a decent team that gets completely blown out 6-7 times a season.
In terms of off field success, we seem to have gotten our act together which is great. Hopefully the results come in the next few years, membership keeps rising and we become a club resembling some of the competition's powerhouses.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Having older players helps young players come on too. Under Richo we did a Melbourne where we thought kids would develop together but it makes it much slower and harder with out some older harder bodies around them. Billings, Ross etc might not be the future but they will help bring through our future. If we are happy to have a few years in the bottom 6 you get rid of the competitive older guys. We shouldn't over pay them but then I can't work out how we have so much cap tied up any way.

The question is weather those older players are driving standards or just lining up for a paycheck.
How does Seb Ross have the credibility to pull someone up about s**t kicking or s**t efforts? or how does JB pull someone up about shirking a contest or missing an easy goal.
There in lies the problem. We lack quality in the upper age bracket to properly influence our performance and development. It's a s**t situation and I don't pretend to have an answer, but holding on to defective older players under the belief that they're something they're not definitely isn't it.

 

[MeSaint]

The problem isn't our players. It's been shown time and time again that the once players go to another club they excel.

I think it is all psychological, there is nothing physically wrong with any of our players (except Hannebery).

First step I would advise is for our media department to stop drinking its own bathwater. If we lose, no Sainter of the week.

Then I would advise the players to show consistent effort, if not they are dropped... no matter who they are.

I'd also lose the reliance on sports psychologists. Tell them to watch as much live local football as they can. Watch amateurs kick goals from 30m out and hit targets.

Then make them go to an Auskick or attend a junior football training every week and see how much football actually means to the kids.

 

[St Kilda Death]

The problem isn't our players. It's been shown time and time again that the once players go to another club they excel

Like...
Newnes?
Acres?[/QUOTE]

 

[g_TRAIN]

The question is weather those older players are driving standards or just lining up for a paycheck.
How does Seb Ross have the credibility to pull someone up about sh*t kicking or sh*t efforts? or how does JB pull someone up about shirking a contest or missing an easy goal.
There in lies the problem. We lack quality in the upper age bracket to properly influence our performance and development. It's a sh*t situation and I don't pretend to have an answer, but holding on to defective older players under the belief that they're something they're not definitely isn't it.

I wouldn't question Seb's effort too often but certainly his kicking and decision making.

You make a good point though, we can't expect Steele to be the only one pulling guys up for their lack of standards. It's a shame Hanners hasn't been able to get fit he's exactly what we have needed this season.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I wouldn't question Seb's effort too often but certainly his kicking and decision making.

You make a good point though, we can't expect Steele to be the only guy pulling guys up for their lack of standards. It's a shame Hanners hasn't been able to get fit he's exactly what we have needed this season.

We all notice different things I suppose. Personally I think Seb is a big offender of the half effort. Perhaps it's because I'm always watching him for it, but at least IMHO he's too often one of the first, if not the first to offend when it's on the line.
I tend to think he's better if given the tagging roll, because it's almost always in general play when I see it. Then it catches...

 

[bergholt]

Nothing wrong with B and C graders in your side. What’s the right deal? That’s the question. Dunstan can hopefully be replaced by bytel as they both can’t play. Think he goes. Pretty sure we have no billings replacement of because of his bad foot injury compensation won’t be worth it. I think we need to look at his form before the injury. It was very good. Ross won’t get anything of value so he probably stays.

Billings was pretty mediocre last year too though. His best year was 2019 but that's feeling like a long time ago now.



I guess what that shows is basically that he's playing a different role. Clearly a half-forward now - less clearances, more marks inside 50, etc. I hope we pay him as one though - give him a couple of years at $450k - $550k.

 

[Mowman]

Billings was pretty mediocre last year too though. His best year was 2019 but that's feeling like a long time ago now.

View attachment 1194875

 

[CaptainRisky]

The problem isn't our players. It's been shown time and time again that the once players go to another club they excel.

I think it is all psychological, there is nothing physically wrong with any of our players (except Hannebery).

First step I would advise is for our media department to stop drinking its own bathwater. If we lose, no Sainter of the week.

Then I would advise the players to show consistent effort, if not they are dropped... no matter who they are.

I'd also lose the reliance on sports psychologists. Tell them to watch as much live local football as they can. Watch amateurs kick goals from 30m out and hit targets.

Then make them go to an Auskick or attend a junior football training every week and see how much football actually means to the kids.

Had thought about that myself , rewards shouldn't be given out for losing ,

 

[prophetic1]

The question is weather those older players are driving standards or just lining up for a paycheck.
How does Seb Ross have the credibility to pull someone up about sh*t kicking or sh*t efforts? or how does JB pull someone up about shirking a contest or missing an easy goal.
There in lies the problem. We lack quality in the upper age bracket to properly influence our performance and development. It's a sh*t situation and I don't pretend to have an answer, but holding on to defective older players under the belief that they're something they're not definitely isn't it.

As in relationships anywhere, love, life, legal and yes sport, the key ingredient to success through adversity and through to triumph and eventual fleeting happiness is COMMUNICATION. Where things break down is lack of effective communication. If we lack composure its a euphemism for we lacked the on field or off field ability to effectively organise and strike back. I have felt that we lack the overall dynamic communication.

Now our captain is brilliant at leading by example and digging deeper into himself and finding more.....but there needs to be a man or a number of men, that come hell or high water, are constantly directing the flow and countering the ebbs .........I don't see that when we are down or being out boxed!

I love STEELE and many of you probably laugh when I long for HANNEBURY to get back on field. Even one full year of him on the park would be the intangible that we lack at present much of the time, imo. I feel the intangibles in footy at this level are the difference in teams much more than the what a lot of what is levelled as criticism concerning the SAINTS.

Yes some do it now and then, but under duress is the time we need that constant most!

 

[The Punter]

Billings was also dropped in 2019.

IMO his best year was 2017. That year, three players only played at least 22 games and averaged at least 22 disposals and 1 goal per game.

Patrick Dangerfield, Dustin Martin, and Jack Billings

14

Jack Billings

Age

28

Ht

185cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.3

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

9.8

5star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.3

3star

D

19.7

5star

K

11.7

5star

HB

8.0

4star

M

4.7

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

2.3

4star

D

13.8

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

4.6

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

1.6

4star

CL

0.0

1star

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