Analysis Where does Buddy Franklin rank amongst the greats?

[HairyO]

While he played a few big games for Hawthorn in finals is efforts in finals for Sydney have been really poor. For some reason this gets overlooked. He has a reputation for performing on the big stage which just doesn't stack up. He's a great athlete and all that but when it comes to the crunch he hasn't really delivered consistently in the games that count and he's had plenty of chances over his career.

He was pretty good in 2014 when the rest of his team failed to even make a whimper, and despite being injured in 2016 he still managed a great game.

His 2013 was very much a case of drag his opponent as far from goal as possible to neutralise him - which he did very well. Mitchell did a similar thing when he had Crowley and another Freo mid rotating on him. Mitchell would drag them out of position which made it easier for our other mids to get the ball.

 

[Oliver09]

He was pretty good in 2014 when the rest of his team failed to even make a whimper, and despite being injured in 2016 he still managed a great game.

His 2013 was very much a case of drag his opponent as far from goal as possible to neutralise him - which he did very well. Mitchell did a similar thing when he had Crowley and another Freo mid rotating on him. Mitchell would drag them out of position which made it easier for our other mids to get the ball.

1.1 in 2016, he was poor. He did roll his ankle but his direct opponent for much of the game, Dale Morris, was playing with a fractured vertebrae. Franklins issue was minor.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I don't think Dunstall or Hudson could do this.

 

[RUNVS]

yes he would. He’d be training at a professional level as well so he’d be even better, as would Lockett Carey Dunstall and Matthews.

one thing that always stands the test of time in this game is natural skill.

He is 185cm. How many 185cm players in the modern game are kicking large amount of goals?

 

[Oliver09]

I don't think Dunstall or Hudson could do this.

They probably would've made a lead from the goalsquare and he would've passed it to them. Instead on this night he had a paddock in front of him.

 

[HairyO]

I don't think Dunstall or Hudson could do this.

They could kick 17 goals though...

 

[Oliver09]

He is 185cm. How many 185cm players in the modern game are kicking large amount of goals?

How many players running around have the ability of Gary Ablett snr? 0. I can only assume you never saw him play, he kicked goals playing on the wing, HFF then when he got to 32 or 33 from the goalsquare. In that position he played on taller key defenders but since he was enormously strong for his size he still beat them more often than not. The only thing that did happen in those final years was his form did fall away the last 4 or 5 games of a season. That was probably because of the fall he took taking one of the greatest marks of all time over Gary Pert. He didn't sit on blokes heads as often after that.

 

[William Wonka]

Absolutely up there. Certainly the best forward of the last 20 years.

I might be biased, but I don't rate him above Carey. Only because I saw Carey have such an influence and presence on so many games, was a better mark, and often had more than one defender hanging off him.

Carey at his best was like a fully grown bloke playing in the under 14s

 

[nickcat0]

6th on the all-time goal scoring list, only 3 men have won more Coleman medals; he'd definitely be in the conversation for one of the best Forwards of all-time.

Personally, out of players I've seen, I find it hard to put anyone ahead of Ablett Snr or Carey, just based on their abilities to amaze me with their skills. I also have to bow to Lockett's sheer weight of numbers, including his 4.84 goals per game average. So at best I've got Buddy at #4.

You then factor in the number of great players who played in other positions; Ablett Jnr, Martin, Matthews, Judd, Voss, Buckley, etc etc; combined with a centuries worth of players I never saw; and it becomes difficult to see how Franklin cracks the Top 20 all-time.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

They could kick 17 goals though...

13 goals in the modern era is just as good though.

 

[RUNVS]

How many players running around have the ability of Gary Ablett snr? 0. I can only assume you never saw him play, he kicked goals playing on the wing, HFF then when he got to 32 or 33 from the goalsquare. In that position he played on taller key defenders but since he was enormously strong for his size he still beat them more often than not. The only thing that did happen in those final years was his form did fall away the last 4 or 5 games of a season. That was probably because of the fall he took taking one of the greatest marks of all time over Gary Pert. He didn't sit on blokes heads as often after that.

According to many on this site Ablett wasn't even the best forward of his era. There is no doubt Buddy is the best key forward of his era. It isn't even open to discussion, it is just a fact.

 

[HairyO]

13 goals in the modern era is just as good though.

Ben Brown kicked 10 only 2 years ago. That is just as good as 13 kicked in 2012.

 

[boxxie2022]

According to many on this site Ablett wasn't even the best forward of his era. There is no doubt Buddy is the best key forward of his era. It isn't even open to discussion, it is just a fact.

Not denying buddy but to downgrade Carey Ablett Lockett Dunstall is just completely pig headed and short sighted.
Carey is still the best player I’ve seen

 

[RUNVS]

Not denying buddy but to downgrade Carey Ablett Lockett Dunstall is just completely pig headed and short sighted.
Carey is still the best player I’ve seen

Not downgrading them. I am just saying that I think there are some rose-tinted glasses going on here that supposedly so many of the games greatest players (often forwards) all played in pretty much the same era. I think it is more likely that the conditions of that era for a key forward were very favourable so that helped make players look better.

Had someone like Travis Cloke played in the 80's he would probably be in the same discussion as a lot of the forwards you are talking about now, whereas in the era he did play in he was seen as a very good player but certainly not one of the greats.

 

[Oliver09]

According to many on this site Ablett wasn't even the best forward of his era. There is no doubt Buddy is the best key forward of his era. It isn't even open to discussion, it is just a fact.

From 93-95 he kicked 375 goals in 64 games, he was 31-33 in those years. He was also the no.1 key forward in the game in those years. Before then he played further up the ground kicking similar numbers to what Franklin has done in his career. Franklin had a big year in 08, hasn't got close to that goal tally since. If Ablett played his whole career at FF it isn't exaggerating to say he would've gone close to 1400 goals. Franklin isn't in the same class, it's that simple.

 

[HairyO]

From 93-95 he kicked 375 goals in 64 games, he was 31-33 in those years. He was also the no.1 key forward in the game in those years. Before then he played further up the ground kicking similar numbers to what Franklin has done in his career. Franklin had a big year in 08, hasn't got close to that goal tally since. If Ablett played his whole career at FF it isn't exaggerating to say he would've gone close to 1400 goals. Franklin isn't in the same class, it's that simple.

Hudson kicked 416 goals in 65 games

 

[WilloTree]

I don't think Dunstall or Hudson could do this.

This one is my favourite

 

[Leon]

Absolutely deserves to be ranked as one of the all time greatest (Ablett, Carey, Matthews etc al)

 

[lumpinee]

Lockett kicked 100 goals 6 times in 17 or 18 seasons. Hudson did it 5 times in 6 seasons.

Locketts seasons played is misleading,completed about 10 seasons at most,id rationale that a near complete season be classed as 14 games/starts or more....started @ 17 yrs and played around 10 games 1st season,played 4 games in comeback season and another 5 seasons at least were destroyed by injury/long suspensions where he played about 11 games or less, and whats also forgotten about Lockett is hed won the Brownlow and kicked the ton by 21 years of age and then proceeded to start in only 31 of the next 72 games over 3.5 seasons meaning the footy world was deprived of Lockett for a full 2 seasons at his absolute peak from 22 yrs-25 yrs

Just to tidy up ,ive noticed youve conveniently left out that Hudson participated in 9 seasons of Australian Rules in Victoria,not 6
but its ok to include all of Locketts participation and uncompleted seasons...lol

 

[HairyO]

Locketts seasons played is misleading,completed about 10 seasons at most,id rationale that a near complete season be classed as 14 games/starts or more....started @ 17 yrs and played around 10 games 1st season,played 4 games in comeback season and another 5 seasons at least were destroyed by injury/long suspensions where he played about 11 games or less, and whats also forgotten about Lockett is hed won the Brownlow and kicked the ton by 21 years of age and then proceeded to start in only 31 of the next 72 games over 3.5 seasons meaning the footy world was deprived of Lockett for a full 2 seasons at his absolute peak from 22 yrs-25 yrs

Just to tidy up ,ive noticed youve conveniently left out that Hudson participated in 9 seasons of Australian Rules in Victoria,not 6
but its ok to include all of Locketts participation and uncompleted seasons...lol

He played 1 game in 2 separate seasons and 2 games in another. He basically lost 5 years of football in a row, yet came back in 1977 and kicked 110 goals.

Lockett had 16 seasons where he played 10 or more games. Locket had a couple of seasons with injuries, but mostly when he missed games it was due to suspensions.

 

[Vass]

I have him as the best I have seen since following the game ( around 20 years). Can't compare to players before as I know alot less about them.

There is a gap between Buddy and the next best in that era IMO, Buddy is a remarkable player.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

I have him as the best I have seen since following the game ( around 20 years). Can't compare to players before as I know alot less about them.

There is a gap between Buddy and the next best in that era IMO, Buddy is a remarkable player.

All those unique older forwards mentioned earlier were extraordinary as well.

 

[danster168]

one of the all time greats.

 

[GWT6]

Lockett, Ablett, Carey, Dunstall, Franklin, Lloyd. In the mix

Hahaha, Essendon fans are the gift that just keep giving.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

Not downgrading them. I am just saying that I think there are some rose-tinted glasses going on here that supposedly so many of the games greatest players (often forwards) all played in pretty much the same era. I think it is more likely that the conditions of that era for a key forward were very favourable so that helped make players look better.

That's simply not true. Using goal-kicking as a measure, the best three forwards are Hudson, Lockett and Coleman. People make a lot of the fact that Lockett missed a lot of games, but in the end he played more games (281) than any of the other great forwards except Coventry (301). But that was because he started at 17, whereas most debuted at 19-21. Lockett turned 20 at the start of the 1986 season and if you ignore 1983-85 (where he kicked 175 goals from 53 games, so just over 3 goals per game) the average for the rest of his career lifts to over 5 per game. It is still below Coleman and Hudson, but then you have to allow for the fact that there careers were so short it lowered the chance of decline or lean patches.

My view is that if all three started at 17 and played 281 games they all would have kicked over 1300, it would be a matter of what order it would be in.
So that's three players from three different eras - 50s, 70s and 80s-90s.

The fourth best is Dunstall, who is just behind those three. He did debut at age 20, and in the end only played 12 games less than plugger but ended up a whole 100 goals behind. If Plugger started at age 20 he would have played far fewer games than Dunstall, and kicked fewer goals but at a better average.

Peter McKenna is 5th. After 129 games he had 629 goals, which is more than anyone at that stage except Hudson (Lockett third with 575), but by the time his career ended his average had dropped below Dunstall's. Partly this was due to his comeback from retirement, which yielded 36 goals for Carlton from 11 games. But even by the time his career at Collingwood was ended by a kidney injury his goaklkicking had been declining - he actually sustained the kidney injury when dropped to the reserves.

So in the top 5 you have - 1 x 50s, 2 x 60s-70s, 2 x 80s-90s. However, the next best forwards all come from earlier eras.

The next best forwards are Pratt (1930s), Mohr (1930s) and Coventry (1920s-30s). Pratt and Mohr are the only players beside Lockett, McKenna and Hudson to have kicked over 500 goals in 129 games. Coventry had only kicked 438 at the Hudson mark, but would improve his average over the rest of his career.

Somewhere in there you have to also think about where Fred Fanning (1940s) and Ron Todd (1930s) sit. Todd only played four VFL seasons (76 games), transferring to Williamstown on the back of consecutive 120+ seasons. In the VFA he kicked 188 goals in one season, and his combined total of VFA/VFL goals was 999 from 217 games. By way of comparison Lockett got the tonne in game 201, Dunstall in 206 and Coventry in 239.

Fred Fanning never kicked 100 in the VFL but topped the goal-kicking three times from his 104 games (411 goals). Obviously he kicked 18 in his final game before transferring to Hamilton, where he kicked bags of 22 and 20 and had a best season of 150 goals.

Chuck Ablett in there somewhere and you've got 10 players coming from:
1 x 1920s-30s
3 x 1930s
1 x 1940s
1 x 1950s
2 x 1960s-70s
3 x 1980s-90s

It is true that if you keep going you end up with more players from the 80s-90s (eg Modra, Taylor) and the 20s-30s (eg Vallance, Moriarty), so these do seem to be golden eras for forwards. Buddy is clearly ahead of his contemporaries, but I don't think it is any greater than the dominance of Lockett, Hudson, Coleman or Dunstall. But you can find great goalkickers in almost all eras - eg Wade in the 1960s and Dick Lee in the 1910s.

The obvious thing about this sort of analysis though is that it does not allow for the eye test. For example, on a goals measure Franklin is better than Carey, which would no doubt be a controversial claim. The further back you go however, the harder it is to make a fair comparison, relying on less and less footage and fewer statistical measures. It will be interesting to see how Buddy compares going forward, where we have footage of all games and stats for things like inside 50s and goal assists (eg Hawkins and J Riewoldt have more goal assists than Buddy from fewer games).

We clearly are in an era without dominant forwards kicking big bags, but I don't know whether that is a lack of those mercurial players, an outcome of tactical measures, or a bit of both. I don't see why we could not have them again - McKay has shown himself capable of kicking multiple bags and may go on to do so more consistently. I hope that we do.