Why do some players bulk up so quickly?

[FuManchu]

In order of importance
1. Genetics
2. Training stimulus
3. Diet
4. Legal supplements

Illegal supplements can be so effective, you'd probably put them in front of genetics.

Aussie Rules is a sport where creatine would have one of the best potentials for benefit. Water retention is not really a major side effect when used in controlled dosage. In the original trials they only used around 5g a day after the initial loading phase. This dosage won't, in my experience, cause much water retention, particularly if it's high quality micronised creatine.

There's evidence to suggest caffeine counteracts creatine's benefits. It's possible they'll use creatine in the off-season/pre-season and caffeine during the season.

Everyone's different though and creatine doesn't benefit a lot of people so this is not a golden rule. Different players will use it differently.

creatine does have some benefit for sure

but the old crushed coffee, aspirin and sudafed used to work wonders before the gym. tasted terrible tho

 

[Crankitup]

Has anyone noticed the amazing way some players seem to bulk up so quickly.
I can recall West Coast players in the very late 80s at the end of the season and then in the beginning of the next season looking completely different - huge upper body development.

I have noticed that to alesser extent in more recent years although some Collingwood players may be approaching that category.

Is it just hard work and top gym work?

If you're insinuating something sinister in terms of 'roids at WC then consider the case of Fraser Gehrig. Whilst at the Eagles he was relatively lean. A couple of seasons at St Kilda though and he's turned into a monster. Has anyone EVER accused St Kilda players of being on 'roids?

 

[Paul.]

No, it's drugs.

There you are, you've got the answer you were wanting, we can end the thread now.

Idiot. The long term effects of drugs is devastating on you're body.

 

[Schism]

creatine does have some benefit for sure

but the old crushed coffee, aspirin and sudafed used to work wonders before the gym. tasted terrible tho

Up until recently i worked with a guy who was a pro'ish bodybuilder and bouncer back in the 70's/80's. Back then he drank 8 pints of milk a day, because that's what they thought was the go at the time. He was a monster and still is, at 50 odd. To me it is amazing how so many guys these days are obsessed with calorie intakes, protein intakes, supplements, this, that and the other, they have it down to a science....and are half the size of the old school lads, who kept it simple.

Walk into a gym now and tell some stick insect to drink 8 pints of milk a day or do a deadlift. He'll laugh at you and then continue on his merry way with the triceps kickbacks and ez bar curls. Of course, there's exceptions to the rule, some people listen, look and learn. But 95% don't.

 

[FuManchu]

Up until recently i worked with a guy who was a pro'ish bodybuilder and bouncer back in the 70's/80's. Back then he drank 8 pints of milk a day, because that's what they thought was the go at the time. He was a monster and still is, at 50 odd. To me it is amazing how so many guys these days are obsessed with calorie intakes, protein intakes, supplements, this, that and the other, they have it down to a science....and are half the size of the old school lads, who kept it simple.

Walk into a gym now and tell some stick insect to drink 8 pints of milk a day or do a deadlift. He'll laugh at you and then continue on his merry way with the triceps kickbacks and ez bar curls. Of course, there's exceptions to the rule, some people listen, look and learn. But 95% don't.

and try tell them to go straight home and eat chicken, fish or red meat within the hour. carbo load before 3 but dont touch them after 3, dont get on the grog and only one day a week indulge yourself with whatever you want to eat.

If you want to get big, there are simple but effective rules, but they arent always guaranteed to work. i've seen so many obviously genetically lean massed people get no-where and plataeu after 3 or 4 months and no amount of protein loading will get them anywhere. you either have it or you dont. Its very hard to convert slow twitch muscle to fast twitch, impossible perhaps.

 

[Schism]

and try tell them to go straight home and eat chicken, fish or red meat within the hour. carbo load before 3 but dont touch them after 3, dont get on the grog and only one day a week indulge yourself with whatever you want to eat.

If you want to get big, there are simple but effective rules, but they arent always guaranteed to work. i've seen so many obviously genetically lean massed people get no-where and plataeu after 3 or 4 months and no amount of protein loading will get them anywhere. you either have it or you dont. Its very hard to convert slow twitch muscle to fast twitch, impossible perhaps.

True genetics is pivotal, but there's very few people who absolutely cannot put size on. Easy for me to say, sure, from day 1 i put on size if i so much as looked at a dumbell, but there are ways for the "hard gainers" (****en hate that term). But this is getting way OT

 

[Mr Lizard]

no offence, but the second line kind of blows the first line out of the water there.
There was actually a guy on here when everyone was talking about EPO who had a keen interest in cycling and drugs in cycling (he certainly seemed to know a lot more about it than any of us) and he was saying that for EPO to have an effect you need to be in the regions of a lance armstrong as far as your efficiency of oxygen use in the blood, as well as doing super endurance events like the tour de france, and that basically for sports like football, EPO would not improve performance.
But hey, keep making it up as you go along!

Oh OK, so there are no drugs then that would help with endurance in AFL. Some guy on here who seemed to know a lot about it said so.
Other guys who seem to know about it don't reckon drugs would help at all with AFL.


Because really, the AFL players aren't really finely tuned athletes at all. I'm sure Justin Charles is the only PED cheat the sport has ever seen.
Collingwood doesn't get any benefit out of their altitude training bit either, they are only doing it for a tax write off.


I'm not making it up as I go along, like I say I don't know the specifics of what drugs are out there that could help an AFL footballer's performance. I'm merely musing on the claims that 'steroids would make you top heavy = not suited to AFL.' Look at the difference in all the players across the league in the last twenty years. These guys are power athletes who are borrowing from Olympic training methods. There aren't drugs in Olympic sports, how silly of me to even think of the possibility there might be drugs in AFL football.

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

Like people say, genetics are huge- some people are naturally keggers, some people are simply not able to bulk up- Tyson Stenglein is a classic example of someone who has had a million big preseasons at two clubs with excellent facilities, with the only impact being he's now skinny and unbelievably cut rather than just skinny.

 

[FuManchu]

Oh OK, so there are no drugs then that would help with endurance in AFL. Some guy on here who seemed to know a lot about it said so.
Other guys who seem to know about it don't reckon drugs would help at all with AFL.


Because really, the AFL players aren't really finely tuned athletes at all. I'm sure Justin Charles is the only PED cheat the sport has ever seen.
Collingwood doesn't get any benefit out of their altitude training bit either, they are only doing it for a tax write off.


I'm not making it up as I go along, like I say I don't know the specifics of what drugs are out there that could help an AFL footballer's performance. I'm merely musing on the claims that 'steroids would make you top heavy = not suited to AFL.' Look at the difference in all the players across the league in the last twenty years. These guys are power athletes who are borrowing from Olympic training methods. There aren't drugs in Olympic sports, how silly of me to even think of the possibility there might be drugs in AFL football.

generally speaking, a steroid based program would not be of such obvious benefit for a sport where such endurance and flexibility is needed. A heavily loaded protein diet for some positional players may produce some obvious strength benefits without robbing them of any enduarnce qualities, but with the amount of running required preseason and during the season, the players metabolism will probably dictate to a certain degree their physical outcomes, as in body shape, muscle mass etc

 

[Mr Lizard]

generally speaking, a steroid based program would not be of such obvious benefit for a sport where such endurance and flexibility is needed. A heavily loaded protein diet for some positional players may produce some obvious strength benefits without robbing them of any enduarnce qualities, but with the amount of running required preseason and during the season, the players metabolism will probably dictate to a certain degree their physical outcomes, as in body shape, muscle mass etc

So do you think that steroids combined with something like EPO could do the trick?

Just something I was wondering about that hasn't really been mentioned during this tediously long 'drugs in football' season.
A player wouldn't need to train for strength as much to get the size, and could focus plenty on endurance training, or vice versa.

 

[Teh_Nub]

From what i know is that you bulk up faster when you start doing weights and one you get pretty big its a lot harder to get bigger. I think players get biger over the break because less cardio to burn all the fat that can be used for muscles also it would be an aim to get bigger. Also these players have top personal trainers to help them

 

[FuManchu]

From what i know is that you bulk up faster when you start doing weights and one you get pretty big its a lot harder to get bigger. I think players get biger over the break because less cardio to burn all the fat that can be used for muscles also it would be an aim to get bigger. Also these players have top personal trainers to help them

they do more cardio work in the pre-season than during the season. They may have peaks and troughs within the season in terms of cardio training schedules, but the real grunt work in terms of running, hence cardio, is done pre season.

 

[Bomber Man]

Why does it only rain on cloudy days?

But seriously, I reckon some players lift weights...

 

[Schism]

Whatever their cardio programs may be, anything more than minimal cardio is counter-productive to putting on siginificant muscle mass.

 

[The Casey Cat]

and try tell them to go straight home and eat chicken, fish or red meat within the hour. carbo load before 3 but dont touch them after 3, dont get on the grog and only one day a week indulge yourself with whatever you want to eat.

If you want to get big, there are simple but effective rules, but they arent always guaranteed to work. i've seen so many obviously genetically lean massed people get no-where and plataeu after 3 or 4 months and no amount of protein loading will get them anywhere. you either have it or you dont. Its very hard to convert slow twitch muscle to fast twitch, impossible perhaps.

Impossible it is as far as I know (master trainer AIF). Was taught some have more that can be recruited if need be (muscle fibres). Than others. Ian Thorpe was used as an example of this by lecturers for my course. He was strong (good for sprinting) but could also swim as far as 800m competitively. Dunno if that's the best example ever but it's one they gave us.

As far as I've noticed you have it or you don't. I've been reasonably good (in terms of dedication, pushing myself, eat right etc) with weight training for about 3 years now and look ok, but not fantastic or anything. I have a mate who has been no more dedicated than me for 2 years (probably more on and off now I think about it) but he is huge and lifts 20-30% more than me on pretty much anything. He was a great sprinter when younger so he has those bloody fast twitch fibers that make the difference. Just the way it is.

 

[FuManchu]

So do you think that steroids combined with something like EPO could do the trick?

Just something I was wondering about that hasn't really been mentioned during this tediously long 'drugs in football' season.
A player wouldn't need to train for strength as much to get the size, and could focus plenty on endurance training, or vice versa.

if I was playing at the elite level, i wouldnt touch the gear unless I had a persistant injury (is anyone listening) but that is based on my own experience of what I need in terms of maintaining bulk but also maintaining the ability to get heart rate above 170bpm or more for over 30 mins at a time. Getting on the gear wont help you run for two hours, trust me!

I dont know enough about EPO to make any judgement, other than it really doesnt relate to strength training from what i've seen in and around gyms. In other words, the big boys dont talk about it. But I could imagine an elite mid fielder may get some endurance gain from this. May, not definitely.

 

[FuManchu]

Whatever their cardio programs may be, anything more than minimal cardio is counter-productive to putting on siginificant muscle mass.

hence the body metabolises to what is required.

people should remember that muscle is developed as a defence mechanism to exertion. The body says I need this specific amount of muscle to enable this level of activity. If you want to bench 180kg's and run 20km's, then i'd say that your body will tell you to make a choice. If you keep running, the power ability will wane.

 

[Del Piero]

This time last year the pathetic media and unbelievably inbred Victorian public were going into overdrive because a couple of WC players forgot to shake the little kiddies hands.

It just never stops . The constant crying from this pathetic state.

Must be the poor education system and mass poverty that dictates the attitudes of these cowardly cyberspace heroes.

Even when one of their fortunate teams wins the bitterness never stops.
Lucky for Geelong, WC were not at full strength or we would of had to put up with another year of this childish crap...

 

[FuManchu]

This time last year the pathetic media and unbelievably inbred Victorian public were going into overdrive because a couple of WC players forgot to shake the little kiddies hands.

It just never stops . The constant crying from this pathetic state.

Must be the poor education system and mass poverty that dictates the attitudes of these cowardly cyberspace heroes.

Even when one of their fortunate teams wins the bitterness never stops.
Lucky for Geelong, WC were not at full strength or we would of had to put up with another year of this childish crap...

Its Ember's latino cousin

 

[Schism]

hence the body metabolises to what is required.

people should remember that muscle is developed as a defence mechanism to exertion. The body says I need this specific amount of muscle to enable this level of activity. If you want to bench 180kg's and run 20km's, then i'd say that your body will tell you to make a choice. If you keep running, the power ability will wane.

Again..you've repeated what i said, in a more complex way

There are exceptions. Mariusz Pudzianowski is one, although to be fair, he is genetically superior to pretty much every human being that ever walked the planet.

 

[Mr Lizard]

if I was playing at the elite level, i wouldnt touch the gear unless I had a persistant injury (is anyone listening) but that is based on my own experience of what I need in terms of maintaining bulk but also maintaining the ability to get heart rate above 170bpm or more for over 30 mins at a time. Getting on the gear wont help you run for two hours, trust me!

That's what I always figured 'roids would be best used for in footy, injury recovery.

I dont know enough about EPO to make any judgement, other than it really doesnt relate to strength training from what i've seen in and around gyms. In other words, the big boys dont talk about it. But I could imagine an elite mid fielder may get some endurance gain from this. May, not definitely.

I've never heard of it for strength training. I'd love to know what the BALCO scientists would have to say on this subject. I mean, sure long distance runners and tour de france cyclists would benefit from EPO, but if it was of no use for power/strength training, why would sprinters like Marion Jones and Alvin Harrison be testing positive for it then?

As I've said, I don't know shit about it all, but I read the papers and I am curious.

 

[FuManchu]

I've never heard of it for strength training. I'd love to know what the BALCO scientists would have to say on this subject. I mean, sure long distance runners and tour de france cyclists would benefit from EPO, but if it was of no use for power/strength training, why would sprinters like Marion Jones and Alvin Harrison be testing positive for it then?

.

Good question, but in elite athletes, the pervading mentality can sometimes be nothing ventured nothing gained.

Jones didnt need it as she already had the power attributes (legally or non legally) to compete, and any move up to 400 metres wasnt going to benefit from any such use. But who knows? Maybe it was a combination experimental use that was being tried, maybe it was just plain stupidity.

 

[Mr Lizard]

Its Ember's latino cousin

hahaha I nearly missed this

 

[BWST]

weight training is highly unrecommended for individuals under the age of 16, can harm muscle and bone development, along with a crap load of other issues that can arise that may harm the individuals body development.

just like that russian kid a few years back whos probably 18/19 now, power to weight ratio, could outlift anyone at the gym and was like 8 years old or something

How do you know that ???

I highly recommend resistance training for anyone that can physically achieve it.

My daughter is 12, she did light weights for all body parts ( very light resistant ).......she played in the highest level of Basketball possible for her. Country State. It did her the world of good, along with her aerobic fitness.

Go take another bite of the Sav.......cause you are wrong !!

 

[FuManchu]

How do you know that ???

I highly recommend resistance training for anyone that can physically achieve it.

My daughter is 12, she did light weights for all body parts ( very light resistant ).......she played in the highest level of Basketball possible for her. Country State. It did her the world of good, along with her aerobic fitness.

Go take another bite of the Sav.......cause you are wrong !!

Personally I wouldnt tell a kid to even worry about resistance training until 14/15, depending on their level of sport.

Its enough that the little mongrels just run around and be active. If they are doing that at 14/15 then they should have a good base to work from. If they want to take their sport to the next level, then that is a good time for them to start weight training. Hopefully by then their joints/ ligaments can take the stress associated with weights.