Why do workers vote Liberal?

[bluebob1]

* Labor *

You are correct. Wonder why they spelt it that was since it is based on Labour day etc and is the Labour party in the UK.

 

[nut]

and where is the revenue base coming from to pay for free health, education, insurance, pensions once the oil is phased out and they lose 20% of GDP and 62% of their exports? This ultimately has a double whammy as not only is industry reduced resulting in less high paid jobs but also no windfall inflows into the fund. 3% govt taps of the fund each year will see Norway "transition" to a reality.

Further chat to anyone from Norway and Sweden and although they love their country, they can't afford the lifestyle of Australians. I appreciate life isn't all about $'s but it is the benchmark reference here.

Can’t afford the life style of Australians ?…. What you mean …

 

[bluebob1]

Any price increase such as tax is always shared between the buyer and the seller. If we use corporate tax using the same logic as "they all pay the same 30% rate" this suggests it is only born buy the company and not passed onto the consumer. We know this isn't true.

The "truth" in the burden on GST on the poor is that the wealthy don't pay GST on their savings. Where the poor spend all their income each week. This needs to be addressed in implementation and constantly monitored.

The question we need to ask ourselves is whether having an efficient and effective tax system, to capture multinationals exceeds the effort to ensure fairness. Fairness would include low income earner rebates and increasing social welfare. With the net result better income collection to fund better services.

For me, I feel we are behind the rest of the world including NZ, Norway, UK etc.


You're right inflation is effectively a form of taxation but I prefer to see wealth utilised for productive purposes and thus a tax system should encourage that allocation

We also are a much geographically larger country with a small population which i think it why it might feel we are behind those countries so we need to tax higher as our infrastructure is more expensive per head of population. Much easier to have great internet in the UK rather than here as an example. Geography dictates that we are always going to be an expensive country. Immigrants notice straight away that everything costs a lot here.

 

[Christopher Buttersnip]

I think you've got it a bit mixed up. The people who fund the IPA also fund the LNP, but it's not the IPA who call the shots in the LNP. The IPA is against a lot of the stupidity going on right now in the religious LNP faction. Not all the LNP are aligned with the IPA.

The CFMEU is one of many Unions. The largest union, the SDA (Shoppies) have been basically corrupt for the last 50 years since the ALP Schism. They're still in charge. The ALP Executive are ALL Union people who answer to the Union (not voters or even ALP members). Andrew Leigh is the ALP's best economics person. But he can't even get into cabinet because he's not union-aligned. The ALP will forego performance/governance in favour of Union factionalism. Union Factionalism ALWAYS brings down the ALP. Federally and at the state level.

Weeeeell, think it's you who is mixed up as well as meandering.

1. Peeps who fund the Libs may also contribute to the IPA but it's nonsense to suggest their policies aren't aligned. There maybe a point here or there where they differ but the IPA is a Murdoch baby which has the LNP by the balls and on all the big issues they are as one.

2. My point about the CFMEU and Labor was to illustrate that unions do not control it per se. As was my point about the conflict with the ACTU.

3. So far as the parliamentary LNP goes their IPA membership is immense, including key ministers. And they have former office bearers now in the parliament who are also influential. Then there are those with power and influence outside the parliamentary party which includes LNP admin and prominent journos.

4. Just as the reactionaries base is big business so is the union movement the base of the ALP. But to suggest the unions have more influence on ALP policy than the IPA and big business has on the LNP is quite a stretch.

Anyway we a drifting away from the OP, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[Power Raid]

Yep… raise taxes…

I'm pro increasing taxes and pro increasing social welfare

What we will have the challenge with is changing our culture to understand the concept of responsibility, shame and conservative values. That's where Norway has a massive advantage.

 

[Power Raid]

We also are a much geographically larger country with a small population which i think it why it might feel we are behind those countries so we need to tax higher as our infrastructure is more expensive per head of population. Much easier to have great internet in the UK rather than here as an example. Geography dictates that we are always going to be an expensive country. Immigrants notice straight away that everything costs a lot here.

Australia was once cheap, really cheap. but we have lost that competitive advantage in the last two decades with property rezoning and our energy policy.

oh well!

 

[Pessimistic]

We also are a much geographically larger country with a small population which i think it why it might feel we are behind those countries so we need to tax higher as our infrastructure is more expensive per head of population. Much easier to have great internet in the UK rather than here as an example. Geography dictates that we are always going to be an expensive country. Immigrants notice straight away that everything costs a lot here.

It wasn’t so when I arrived in 88

 

[nut]

I'm pro increasing taxes and pro increasing social welfare

What we will have the challenge with is changing our culture to understand the concept of responsibility, shame and conservative values. That's where Norway

You are right … it would take a massive change in the way people think … this would need to be supported by a supportive media… if people can see the benefits then they would support it.
But having corporate owned media influencing the people to benefit the rich … I can’t see it happening.



I guessing you mean social responsibility.

People don’t mind paying taxes when they can see where it goes and what benefits come from it.
Australians see their taxes getting lumped into 1 large tax pool and then see the government spend billions wasting it. Supposedly ….

I feel the Norwegians See the benefits that their tax system gives them, they see the importance of government owned utilities, infrastructure and more importantly they trust their government to do the right thing by its people.
They are protected financially throughout their lives … and they pay a premium for that.
They also don’t have the influences from the Murdoch press.

The size of the pension in Norway is determined by the how much you contributed to society … the longer you worked the larger your pension.

The unemployment scheme is also “socially responsibly”, everyone pays a levy… everyone is protected.

Our Medicare levy is one great example of how people can see the benefits of a social system.

It’s funny how the LNP set up a sovereign fund just for Politicians and public servants !!!!!!

 

[Saint]

Weeeeell, think it's you who is mixed up as well as meandering.

1. Peeps who fund the Libs may also contribute to the IPA but it's nonsense to suggest their policies aren't aligned. There maybe a point here or there where they differ but the IPA is a Murdoch baby which has the LNP by the balls and on all the big issues they are as one.

2. My point about the CFMEU and Labor was to illustrate that unions do not control it per se. As was my point about the conflict with the ACTU.

3. So far as the parliamentary LNP goes their IPA membership is immense, including key ministers. And they have former office bearers now in the parliament who are also influential. Then there are those with power and influence outside the parliamentary party which includes LNP admin and prominent journos.

4. Just as the reactionaries base is big business so is the union movement the base of the ALP. But to suggest the unions have more influence on ALP policy than the IPA and big business has on the LNP is quite a stretch.

Anyway we a drifting away from the OP, so let's agree to disagree.

Agreed.

One last point to make on the topic. The IPA, BCA, LNP (rich kids), business owners, bankers. It's pretty clear their ideologies are aligned, small corporate tax rates, nothing free for the peasants. Regardless of who they are, what org they're in or who/where they donate, they're all on the same page. The organisations come and go. The IPA could disband tomorrow and everything else would remain the same. The Sydney Institute would just replace the IPA.

But the SDA stopped the ALP voting for same sex marriage despite it being obviously supported by a huge majority of Union members, ALP members and the electorate. Why? Because the leaders of the SDA are religious zealots who run the Union as a personal fiefdom. That's much more of a perversion of the two party system than the corporate capture of the conservative wing. Even Penny Wong wouldn't publicly say anything bad about it. The Unions have ALP members over a barrel.

George Christensen and other lunatics in the LNP are allowed to do far worse against their own party. The IPA kids are just ideological warriors.

Keep in mind, 2PP I've voted ALP every time over LNP. But I could never join the ALP. It would just be giving money to people like the SDA to abuse.

 

[Rotayjay]

'The workers' of Australia aren't what they used to be. What was once a huge group of men in traditional manufactuting jobs and highly unionised is now a bunch of temporary migrants who can't vote in elections and are in 'giggified' jobs like transport, manufacturing is a much smaller part of the workforce and unionism has collapsed. There are a lot of tradies who are now self-employed and many vote Liberal - the Howard Battlers. They are small business owners.

What I'm trying to get at is that I think the old unionised permanent job model fostered voting Labor. Voting Labor was part and parcel of being a working class union employee. Now people don't think of themselves as working class, are not union, their employers have a lot more power over them and they do not realise that (or they don't have a PAYG employer at all) and reckon they don't need to vote Labor to get better outcomes.

 

[Pessimistic]

‘By xxxx no Australian child (needs to/will be) living in poverty’

The country is so rich this is true. Why is it not so. It seems Norway country in comparison has a much better distribution of wealth, and bot sides of politics seem invested in it

 

[Pessimistic]

Agreed.

One last point to make on the topic. The IPA, BCA, LNP (rich kids), business owners, bankers. It's pretty clear their ideologies are aligned, small corporate tax rates, nothing free for the peasants. Regardless of who they are, what org they're in or who/where they donate, they're all on the same page. The organisations come and go. The IPA could disband tomorrow and everything else would remain the same. The Sydney Institute would just replace the IPA.

But the SDA stopped the ALP voting for same sex marriage despite it being obviously supported by a huge majority of Union members, ALP members and the electorate. Why? Because the leaders of the SDA are religious zealots who run the Union as a personal fiefdom. That's much more of a perversion of the two party system than the corporate capture of the conservative wing. Even Penny Wong wouldn't publicly say anything bad about it. The Unions have ALP members over a barrel.

George Christensen and other lunatics in the LNP are allowed to do far worse against their own party. The IPA kids are just ideological warriors.

Keep in mind, 2PP I've voted ALP every time over LNP. But I could never join the ALP. It would just be giving money to people like the SDA to abuse.

Some afl clubs would have more actual members than all the political parties combined, yet theoretically all adults vote

 

[Rotayjay]

I'm pretty pessimistic about the intelligence of the average voter, especially after the 2019 election.

Anecdotally, my opinion is that there was once a time when more than half the workforce were union members, and therefore highly likely to vote Labor as their union would encourage that. Nowadays less than a fifth of employees are union members. I don't think they realise how much worse off an ordinary worker is now, relatively speaking.

I don't mean living standards compared to 1975. I mean how much more casualised and insecure work is, how rife wage theft is, how CEO pay is now so many times more than worker pay. The portion of revenue that goes to labour as opposed to shareholders is collapsing.

This is sounding really Marxist but I think the workers of Australia have been downtrodden and do not realise how badly they are downtrodden. They have given up on unions and seem to think the Liberals are just as good, if not better for workers because 'yeah they're giving a tax cut to people who work hard like me' when in fact voting Labor would likely result in a better life.

It's a kind of Stockholm syndrome. Much of the workforce has never seen significant union numbers, has NEVER had bargaining power against employers and don't realise how significant that is, and has seen six years of Labor government in the last twenty-six.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I'm pretty pessimistic about the intelligence of the average voter, especially after the 2019 election.

Anecdotally, my opinion is that there was once a time when more than half the workforce were union members, and therefore highly likely to vote Labor as their union would encourage that. Nowadays less than a fifth of employees are union members. I don't think they realise how much worse off an ordinary worker is now, relatively speaking.

I don't mean living standards compared to 1975. I mean how much more casualised and insecure work is, how rife wage theft is, how CEO pay is now so many times more than worker pay. The portion of revenue that goes to labour as opposed to shareholders is collapsing.

This is sounding really Marxist but I think the workers of Australia have been downtrodden and do not realise how badly they are downtrodden. They have given up on unions and seem to think the Liberals are just as good, if not better for workers because 'yeah they're giving a tax cut to people who work hard like me' when in fact voting Labor would likely result in a better life.

It's a kind of Stockholm syndrome. Much of the workforce has never seen significant union numbers, has NEVER had bargaining power against employers and don't realise how significant that is, and has seen six years of Labor government in the last twenty-six.

While I tend to agree with you, the ALP hasn't helped itself by moving to the right and maintaining and supporting a lot of Anti-Worker policies of the Tories in an effort to appease a wider audience....but of course, in doing so, it weakened their base

Many workers see that and think "what's the difference, one is as bad as the other"

 

[Saint]

While I tend to agree with you, the ALP hasn't helped itself by moving to the right and maintaining and supporting a lot of Anti-Worker policies of the Tories in an effort to appease a wider audience....but of course, in doing so, it weakened their base

Many workers see that and think "what's the difference, one is as bad as the other"

It's the other way. The base was weakened as Union membership collapsed as state companies and manufacturing declined, replaced by the private sector, plus everyone started looking at their Super accounts rather than the pension. So people were drifting away from the Unions to the centre. Therefore the ALP had to move towards what you're calling "anti-worker" policies.

It's clear the corporate/capital class has begun fleecing the workers again. But the answer isn't necessarily Union-membership, just better education about how the economy works and highlighting the ways ordinary people are being stiffed (though it's often complicated...)

 

[Johnny Bananas]

keeping their jobs in the coal mine

Are coal miners poor? I thought they were paid quite well. I also didn't think mines employed that many people in the operation phase.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

It's the other way. The base was weakened as Union membership collapsed as state companies and manufacturing declined, replaced by the private sector, plus everyone started looking at their Super accounts rather than the pension. So people were drifting away from the Unions to the centre. Therefore the ALP had to move towards what you're calling "anti-worker" policies.

It's clear the corporate/capital class has begun fleecing the workers again. But the answer isn't necessarily Union-membership, just better education about how the economy works and highlighting the ways ordinary people are being stiffed (though it's often complicated...)

You're wrong

Hawke shifted the Party to the right, he then tried to coral the Unions with "The Accord"
He then cosied up with the US (MX Missiles etc) on numerous issues

The entire party moved to the right

But that is all documented and available for your perusal/reading at anytime

 

[Saint]

Bob Hawke who was head of the ACTU prior to being probably the best ALP Prime Minister of all-time?

He was the one who ruined the party by dragging it to the right?

Is it possible the party was too far left for its existence prior to Hawke which was why they lost to Menzies forever and why Whitlam couldn't hold his Government together?

Perhaps the electorate shifted to the right and the ALP could either move or be left behind.

Do you think the party's struggles are because it isn't "left enough"?

It's strange that every time the ALP win an election they're not "left enough" and when they're "left enough" like last time, they lose. Is it a coincidence?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Bob Hawke who was head of the ACTU prior to being probably the best ALP Prime Minister of all-time?

He was the one who ruined the party by dragging it to the right?

Is it possible the party was too far left for its existence prior to Hawke which was why they lost to Menzies forever and why Whitlam couldn't hold his Government together?

Perhaps the electorate shifted to the right and the ALP could either move or be left behind.

Do you think the party's struggles are because it isn't "left enough"?

It's strange that every time the ALP win an election they're not "left enough" and when they're "left enough" like last time, they lose. Is it a coincidence?

"ruined the party" you say?

I think the ALP has two clear issues
1. Bland Leadership
2. Being LNP lite

I have no idea about these "coincidences" of which you speak.....do you?

Perhaps you needed to be in the Party at the time to fully understand it
(luckily some of us stopped the Internal Passport plan of the ALP at the time)

 

[Power Raid]

People don’t mind paying taxes when they can see where it goes and what benefits come from it.
Australians see their taxes getting lumped into 1 large tax pool and then see the government spend billions wasting it. Supposedly ….

When Jokowi took the Indo presidency he called a meeting with the top 10 to 20 richest people in Indo and asked them to pay taxes. He did this by outlining what he was spending it on, including infrastructure and reassured them the thieving would be mitigated.

The wealthy accepted his promises given his track record as mayor of Jakarta and not only started paying taxes but back paid.

This is an extreme example of corrupt governments but it does highlight people don't mind paying taxes if there is a benefit. However an extension of this is how tax payers view the recipients of benefits. It is much easier to reach into ones pocket when you see clean cut, socially responsible people who have a culture of shame and conservative values. It is this last part that sets Norway apart from Australia and why a Norwegian system couldn't be implemented here with generations of cultural change.

I feel the Norwegians See the benefits that their tax system gives them, they see the importance of government owned utilities, infrastructure and more importantly they trust their government to do the right thing by its people.
They are protected financially throughout their lives … and they pay a premium for that.
They also don’t have the influences from the Murdoch press.

The media is a reflection of the customer base. It is easy to blame one guy "Murdoch" but we should be finger pointing the readers of the rags, the queues at maccas, the lazy parents who don't read to their kids, the lazy parents who feed their kids fast food etc. We as a society own this; not one man.

The size of the pension in Norway is determined by the how much you contributed to society … the longer you worked the larger your pension.

The unemployment scheme is also “socially responsibly”, everyone pays a levy… everyone is protected.

Our Medicare levy is one great example of how people can see the benefits of a social system.

It’s funny how the LNP set up a sovereign fund just for Politicians and public servants !!!!!!

Our system is also a "more one contributes, the more one has".

As I understand, the federal government can't just create a net surplus and keep it. Further the government was in breach of its own rules in terms of super contribution. A company can't just spend other people's superannuation as working capital and write an IOU. So the government set up the fund which is still materially smaller than the liability.

 

[Power Raid]

Bob Hawke who was head of the ACTU prior to being probably the best ALP Prime Minister of all-time?

He was the one who ruined the party by dragging it to the right?

Is it possible the party was too far left for its existence prior to Hawke which was why they lost to Menzies forever and why Whitlam couldn't hold his Government together?

Perhaps the electorate shifted to the right and the ALP could either move or be left behind.

Do you think the party's struggles are because it isn't "left enough"?

It's strange that every time the ALP win an election they're not "left enough" and when they're "left enough" like last time, they lose. Is it a coincidence?

Yep

Labor's brand has simply not been accepted by the Australian people.

In the post war era, labor has been in power 22 years and if we remove the "great right hawke keating era" then labor true brand has only been accepted for ~9 years and out of tiredness of the incumbent or the last resort.

For me labor is perfect for state government.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Yep

Labor's brand has simply not been accepted by the Australian people.

In the post war era, labor has been in power 22 years and if we remove the "great right hawke keating era" then labor true brand has only been accepted for ~9 years and out of tiredness of the incumbent or the last resort.

For me labor is perfect for state government.

Right here ^ we have the irrelevancy of those who do not vote

Its like throwing confetti in a Hurricane.....in the scheme of things, no one pays it any attention

 

[Saint]

Right here ^ we have the irrelevancy of those who do not vote

Its like throwing confetti in a Hurricane.....in the scheme of things, no one pays it any attention

But it's true.

The true believers on the left of the ALP and in the Greens would rather be righteous and losing than practical and win an election every now and then to actually make change.

The other part of the only 22 years in power is that those 22 years saw 3x as much progress as all the other years of Conservative governments.

The current one is the worst yet. They've done absolutely nothing. Which is usually fine, but when we needed a strong response to bushfires, pandemic etc, they just completely abrogated their responsibilities. It's cost thousands of lives and livelihoods.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

But it's true.

The true believers on the left of the ALP and in the Greens would rather be righteous and losing than practical and win an election every now and then to actually make change.

The other part of the only 22 years in power is that those 22 years saw 3x as much progress as all the other years of Conservative governments.

The current one is the worst yet. They've done absolutely nothing. Which is usually fine, but when we needed a strong response to bushfires, pandemic etc, they just completely abrogated their responsibilities. It's cost thousands of lives and livelihoods.

How would you know what happens inside the ALP or Greens?

 

[Power Raid]

Right here ^ we have the irrelevancy of those who do not vote

Its like throwing confetti in a Hurricane.....in the scheme of things, no one pays it any attention

I note you have nothing to discuss about the issue

Do you have issues with accepting the facts?