Why do workers vote Liberal?

[Baltimore Jack]

I note you have nothing to discuss about the issue

Do you have issues with accepting the facts?

Yep, I do, from a self confessed non-voter, I generally dismiss you as just a waste of oxygen
I think you are lucky you even get to post here, let alone ague a position

 

[Power Raid]

Yep, I do, from a self confessed non-voter, I generally dismiss you as just a waste of oxygen
I think you are lucky you even get to post here, let alone ague a position

I'm not arguing a position, rather stating a fact.

I note you're not arguing a position but rather like a 2 year old very distracted.

look, is that a paper plane?

 

[ChampRevesby]

Weeeeell, think it's you who is mixed up as well as meandering.

1. Peeps who fund the Libs may also contribute to the IPA but it's nonsense to suggest their policies aren't aligned. There maybe a point here or there where they differ but the IPA is a Murdoch baby which has the LNP by the balls and on all the big issues they are as one.

2. My point about the CFMEU and Labor was to illustrate that unions do not control it per se. As was my point about the conflict with the ACTU.

3. So far as the parliamentary LNP goes their IPA membership is immense, including key ministers. And they have former office bearers now in the parliament who are also influential. Then there are those with power and influence outside the parliamentary party which includes LNP admin and prominent journos.

4. Just as the reactionaries base is big business so is the union movement the base of the ALP. But to suggest the unions have more influence on ALP policy than the IPA and big business has on the LNP is quite a stretch.

Anyway we a drifting away from the OP, so let's agree to disagree.

The Fabian Society are the ALP's IPA. Political think tanks are not uncommon and not particularly controversial. You will find a lot of ALP leaders are Fabians.

 

[nut]

You're wrong

Hawke shifted the Party to the right, he then tried to coral the Unions with "The Accord"
He then cosied up with the US (MX Missiles etc) on numerous issues

The entire party moved to the right

But that is all documented and available for your perusal/reading at anytime

The Accord was used to stop inflation and wage rises and the reward was superannuation

 

[Christopher Buttersnip]

The Fabian Society are the ALP's IPA. Political think tanks are not uncommon and not particularly controversial. You will find a lot of ALP leaders are Fabians.

The Fabian's are basically a philosophical relic. Essentially a discussion group. They have no power or influence. The IPA is a political lobby group whose membership consists of the movers-n-shakers in our society. Their reach and influence is immense. Keith Murdoch knew what he was doing when he set it up and Dirty Rupe has it purring with the enormous support of peeps like Rhinehart.

 

[Christopher Buttersnip]

Woo-hoo!

 

[Baltimore Jack]

The Accord was used to stop inflation and wage rises and the reward was superannuation

'Intent' and 'Use' were different things

I was an Official of the ETU at the time

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I think people are too eager to point to Shorten in 2019 and conclude that progressive policies cannot be accepted by the electorate. Such simplistic thinking ignores that Shorten was inept at selling his policies to the public (or having any charisma) and eliminating franking credit refunds do not represent the sum total of progressive politics, in fact they're merely a side issue to the real problems of housing affordability, wealth inequality and the casualisation of the workforce. An ambitious policy on any of these substantive issues could be a vote winner, provided the leader knows how to sell it to the people in a convincing way. This is a quality every Labor leader since Rudd has lacked.

 

[DaRick]

I think people are too eager to point to Shorten in 2019 and conclude that progressive policies cannot be accepted by the electorate. Such simplistic thinking ignores that Shorten was inept at selling his policies to the public (or having any charisma) and eliminating franking credit refunds do not represent the sum total of progressive politics, in fact they're merely a side issue to the real problems of housing affordability, wealth inequality and the casualisation of the workforce. An ambitious policy on any of these substantive issues could be a vote winner, provided the leader knows how to sell it to the people in a convincing way. This is a quality every Labor leader since Rudd has lacked.

Unfortunately, it is easier to destroy than to create.

It is regrettably easier to pick apart a detailed, comprehensive, thoughtful policy platform with populist nonsense than it is to 1) create one and 2) sell it. Bart Simpson, of all people, proved that with his "MORE ASBESTOS!" chant.

That's why the likes of Gough/Hawke resorted to populist sloganeering and their own charisma to carry the day during the campaign ("It's Time." "Bringing Australia together.") before enacting policy when they were actually in office.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

That's why the likes of Gough/Hawke resorted to populist sloganeering and their own charisma to carry the day during the campaign ("It's Time." "Bringing Australia together.") before enacting policy when they were actually in office.

How about Rudd? He proposed a National Broadband Network and climate change action.

 

[Toump Ass]

I think people are too eager to point to Shorten in 2019 and conclude that progressive policies cannot be accepted by the electorate. Such simplistic thinking ignores that Shorten was inept at selling his policies to the public (or having any charisma) and eliminating franking credit refunds do not represent the sum total of progressive politics, in fact they're merely a side issue to the real problems of housing affordability, wealth inequality and the casualisation of the workforce. An ambitious policy on any of these substantive issues could be a vote winner, provided the leader knows how to sell it to the people in a convincing way. This is a quality every Labor leader since Rudd has lacked.

I was studied accounting at the time and listening to Shorten try and explain franking credits made me wonder if I'd misunderstood the unit completely.
The Liberals framed it as Labor trying to steal money from pensioners, and it worked.

Shorten didn't even need to sell anything in the first place either. If all he'd done is attack the Liberals for being unstable he probably would have won. Instead, he overwhelmed people with policies he couldn't even articulate.

Shorten absolutely botched that one. What an outrageously shit leader he is.
And **** Albanese too while I'm here.

 

[nut]

When Jokowi took the Indo presidency he called a meeting with the top 10 to 20 richest people in Indo and asked them to pay taxes. He did this by outlining what he was spending it on, including infrastructure and reassured them the thieving would be mitigated.

The wealthy accepted his promises given his track record as mayor of Jakarta and not only started paying taxes but back paid.

This is an extreme example of corrupt governments but it does highlight people don't mind paying taxes if there is a benefit. However an extension of this is how tax payers view the recipients of benefits. It is much easier to reach into ones pocket when you see clean cut, socially responsible people who have a culture of shame and conservative values. It is this last part that sets Norway apart from Australia and why a Norwegian system couldn't be implemented here with generations of cultural change.




The media is a reflection of the customer base. It is easy to blame one guy "Murdoch" but we should be finger pointing the readers of the rags, the queues at maccas, the lazy parents who don't read to their kids, the lazy parents who feed their kids fast food etc. We as a society own this; not one man.




Our system is also a "more one contributes, the more one has".

As I understand, the federal government can't just create a net surplus and keep it. Further the government was in breach of its own rules in terms of super contribution. A company can't just spend other people's superannuation as working capital and write an IOU. So the government set up the fund which is still materially smaller than the liability.

Explain to me what you mean by culture of shame and conservative values ….

And on Murdoch he’d get kicked out by the Norwegian media board

I was studied accounting at the time and listening to Shorten try and explain franking credits made me wonder if I'd misunderstood the unit completely.
The Liberals framed it as Labor trying to steal money from pensioners, and it worked.

Shorten didn't even need to sell anything in the first place either. If all he'd done is attack the Liberals for being unstable he probably would have won. Instead, he overwhelmed people with policies he couldn't even articulate.

Shorten absolutely botched that one. What an outrageously sh*t leader he is.
And fu** Albanese too while I'm here.

How do you rate Scomo as a leader then?

 

[Toump Ass]

How do you rate Scomo as a leader then?

Shithouse, which only highlights how bad the opposition is.

 

[DaRick]

How about Rudd? He proposed a National Broadband Network and climate change action.

Yeah, but he sold up the climate change thing by saying that "it was one of the great challenges of our time" - nothing that the LNP could really take apart there, and pretty persuasive.

Plus, Rudd buried any potential scare campaigns RE the NBN via sloganeering (Kevin '07) and demagoguery. That he was a Queenslander helped him some.

 

[DaRick]

I was studied accounting at the time and listening to Shorten try and explain franking credits made me wonder if I'd misunderstood the unit completely.
The Liberals framed it as Labor trying to steal money from pensioners, and it worked.

Shorten didn't even need to sell anything in the first place either. If all he'd done is attack the Liberals for being unstable he probably would have won. Instead, he overwhelmed people with policies he couldn't even articulate.

Shorten absolutely botched that one. What an outrageously sh*t leader he is.
And fu** Albanese too while I'm here.

Agree that Shorten should have just stuck to a 2016-style campign. Had (say) LeaderScare replaced MediScare, he'd likely get up.

With hindsight, maybe it's better from a political POV that he didn't.

Albo is unconvincing, but he gets political points simply for not being Shorten.

 

[Pessimistic]

I was studied accounting at the time and listening to Shorten try and explain franking credits made me wonder if I'd misunderstood the unit completely.
The Liberals framed it as Labor trying to steal money from pensioners, and it worked.

Shorten didn't even need to sell anything in the first place either. If all he'd done is attack the Liberals for being unstable he probably would have won. Instead, he overwhelmed people with policies he couldn't even articulate.

Shorten absolutely botched that one. What an outrageously sh*t leader he is.
And fu** Albanese too while I'm here.

So labor’s fault we have a crap coalition govt?

 

[Toump Ass]

Albo is unconvincing, but he gets political points simply for not being Shorten.

Totally agree. My hatred of Albo is personal though. See I met him through work, and he was unfathomably rude; I literally couldn't believe it. He's the (next) opposition leader interacting with the public, and acting like the most entitled dickhead on planet Earth. I've never met any Liberals but I'm absolutely certain they'd at least pretend not to be arseholes. Surely it's part of your job? If he's not smart enough to not be a campaigner meeting voters then he's not smart enough to run a country IMO.

 

[DaRick]

Totally agree. My hatred of Albo is personal though. See I met him through work, and he was unfathomably rude; I literally couldn't believe it. He's the (next) opposition leader interacting with the public, and acting like the most entitled dickhead on planet Earth. I've never met any Liberals but I'm absolutely certain they'd at least pretend not to be arseholes. Surely it's part of your job? If he's not smart enough to not be a campaigner meeting voters then he's not smart enough to run a country IMO.

That's a real shame.

Similarly, I heard a less than flattering story about Shorten using an autistic kid for PR (promising him a photo-retouching job in public and then reneging on the promise in private). I did vote ALP anyway, because I suspected that ScoMo was even worse (him doing a Latham and grabbing that girl's hand during that bushfires proved that in my mind), but I never really liked him.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Agree that Shorten should have just stuck to a 2016-style campign. Had (say) LeaderScare replaced MediScare, he'd likely get up.

With hindsight, maybe it's better from a political POV that he didn't.

In 2019 Shorten promised to buy a fleet of water bombers to fight bushfires. Would have been very useful that summer. And as much as I find him completely devoid of charisma, I can't see him handling the pandemic any worse than the current mob has.

 

[DaRick]

In 2019 Shorten promised to buy a fleet of water bombers to fight bushfires. Would have been very useful that summer. And as much as I find him completely devoid of charisma, I can't see him handling the pandemic any worse than the current mob has.

I agree with that, but if there was any election which was good to lose, it was that one.

This whole term has basically been a crisis situation, and even the best of leaders - never mind incompetents like ScoMo - make mistakes in a crisis. Shorten's would have been seized upon even more viciously than ScoMo's, especially because he was even less popular than ScoMo to begin with...and ScoMo would have been ready to take advantage of that come election time.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I agree with that, but if there was any election which was good to lose, it was that one.

This whole term has basically been a crisis situation, and even the best of leaders - never mind incompetents like ScoMo - make mistakes in a crisis. Shorten's would have been seized upon even more viciously than ScoMo's, especially because he was even less popular than ScoMo to begin with...and ScoMo would have been ready to take advantage of that come election time.

Yeah good point, plus Labor would have been absolutely raked over the coals by Murdoch media for anything resembling state control. The Liberals can get away with it, Labor would have been likened to Stalin.

 

[eddiesmith]

In 2019 Shorten promised to buy a fleet of water bombers to fight bushfires. Would have been very useful that summer. And as much as I find him completely devoid of charisma, I can't see him handling the pandemic any worse than the current mob has.

I doubt Australia would actually end up buying a fleet of water bombers, they’re currently leased every summer and they go north during winter. Shortens fleet would just have seen the same aircraft we currently have scattered around the country and available to any state, be paid for by the Feds rather than states. Which is probably exactly where he was coming from, taking financial burden off the Labor state premiers to waste money elsewhere.

 

[Power Raid]

Liberal represents the worker and the small guy

Labor represents unions and for them to succeed, they need to centralise human resources and the best way to achieve that is to look after large organisations and the wealthy. That's why labor wanted to remove franking credits for the ordinary but keep it for the wealthy, they wanted to remove negative gearing for the ordinary but keep it for the wealthy, they opposed the GST because they didn't want to tax mutli-national corporations and mitigate transfer pricing. The only time Labor was on song was under Hawke and Keating.

 

[Christopher Buttersnip]

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Liberal represents the worker and the small guy

Yeah, I thought Workchoices really showed their love of ordinary workers.