Worst list in the AFL at present?

[CrowToon]

The issue I have with the crows is that they have bottomed out and accumulated high draft picks. However there are very few to get genuinely excited about. Sure rechelle and Fogarty are exciting, and thilthorp should be good (however what position?). Then there are some nice players.

I still feel it’s the older players who are keeping the team competitive. I will say that rankine is a great pick up and the forward line is looking good.

You may have to run my post through some bogan-English translator but I want to be clear - outside of Tex, it wasn't the old brigade getting us the W.


Don't see how we even make the cutoff considering we have improved year of year the last 2 years, added draft and traded talent in and nave a very promising forward line, a midfield with a couple of kids who could break out any year. Yeah ok the defence looks thinner but there are several clubs worse than us.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I think you’re being the nuffie for thinking you know better than an AFL coach regarding a list that you seem to barely have a grasp of. That’s Bigfooty though, I guess.

The question you should have asked was “which players does Sam see as being part of the next flag?”, but instead you seemingly think that he’s wrong to have even identified players within his list who have the talent to eventually get there.

It would be nice if there was a specific Hawthorn list/rebuild thread to continue this discussion in, rather than in every second thread about “who’s the worst”, “who’s got the best kids” etc. Maybe you can start one, and we can keep ourselves entertained for the summer? Actually I have an idea.

I actually didn't say I didn't think Sam Mitchell doesn't know anything about list management or winning flags (clearly he does, quite considerably)

I thought it was a silly comment to make about a team that is widely tipped to finish bottom 4 (and maybe the Spoon) and may create some unnecessary expectations for HFC supporters and or pressure on some of your young players.

 

[Macca180]

West Coast not getting any better.

 

[Shadow89]

I think you’re being the nuffie for thinking you know better than an AFL coach regarding a list that you seem to barely have a grasp of. That’s Bigfooty though, I guess.

The question you should have asked was “which players does Sam see as being part of the next flag?”, but instead you seemingly think that he’s wrong to have even identified players within his list who have the talent to eventually get there.

It would be nice if there was a specific Hawthorn list/rebuild thread to continue this discussion in, rather than in every second thread about “who’s the worst”, “who’s got the best kids” etc. Maybe you can start one, and we can keep ourselves entertained for the summer?

To be fair, I think what most here would be jumping on, would be the key words 'vast majority' and 'bits and pieces.'

Mitchell could very well lead you to your next flag with this list, and the pieces have begun to be assembled, but I do think it is strange to say that the 'vast majority of the club's next Premiership side has been assembled' and 'only bits and pieces need to be added' - when the rebuild has only really just begun.

Mitch Lewis needs a partner, as I don't think Kozi and Jeka (who is a forward but played as a defender) are close to his level from what they've displayed thus far. Reeves, DGB, Meek, Lynch and Blanck all show decent signs, but they're by no means projecting as Premiership level KPD's and rucks. Cooper showed some good signs but doesn't have much exposure and Ward and Worpel still have a long way to go before they can form a Premiership midfield nucleus - as Worpel has gone backwards a bit and Ward still hasn't played a full season of AFL midfield. Macdonald again shows good signs and could transition into the mids as he did at underage level, and Mackenzie was the player I wanted most above anyone - even Clark - so I think you'll have a winner there. Your back half is basically complete, and your non KPP front half (Moore, Brockman, Wingard, Breust, Macdonald etc.) and your wingers are solid. KPP's and mids are no small thing though, and I think that's where the 'bits and pieces' to be added are needed.

There's nothing wrong with saying that you're happy with how the list build is going and that things are going in the right direction, but it's a but much to suggest that a likely Bottom 6 side has the 'vast majority of its team assembled' when there is still a long way to go.

I don't personally take issue with how young the Hawks have gone, as they always rebound quickly...but you won't be making finals next year or the year after that at the least based on past history and improvement trajectories for other clubs. So 2025 or 2026 is when you're really taking this list to the next level. At that point you may be in a really good position, or half of the draftees/young trade ins you've gathered could be a bust - which will set your rebuild back further.

His commentary relies on the fact that most will succeed/not succumb to injury that are currently there, and that just seems unlikely. Serious elite depth is what allows you to contend, and outside of 10-15 or so players right now, there really isn't too much of that at the moment on form displayed - given the deep cuts you've made and the direction you've chosen to go in.

In summation, it's not the inference or train of thought that's the problem, it's the terminology that I think most would take issue with - as there's good parts thus far, but it's nowhere near complete as Mitchell suggests, IMO.

 

[SSSSSS]

We have a pretty solid nucleus of young kids that I'm fairly bullish on.

Lewis looks to be a 40-50 goal a year pack crashing CHF. Just needs to stay fit. Still need to find a partner for Lewis long term. Not sold on Kozi who is solid but a battler. Ramsden is an athletic freak but a beanpole.
Moore is now an established goal a game close to 20 disposal HFF/mid.
Very bullish on Butler as a high impact per possession pressure forward but jury is still out. Still need to find some to add to the mosquito fleet.

Midfield coming along with Newcombe, Ward, Day, MacDonald and the addition of MacKenzie. Still very light on in depth and quality but the easiest area to address through drafting/trading/FA. If Mitchell has plans for a tagger then Finn Maginness has shown he has the skillset and athleticism to beat some of the best in the comp.
If Worpel can recapture his best form it will go a long way in expediting our return to finals contention. Very big if but I love him too much to rule him out.

Our ruckstocks which ones looked a weakness is now a strength of ours. Reeves is a massive talent. Kid is a massive unit and his tapwork is the best I've seen in Hawks colours since Max Bailey. Meek I am excited about. Lynch is solid but never had a great run with injuries and concussion.

Backline of CJ and Scrimshaw as interceptors. Hardwick is only 25. One of DGB, Blacnk and Jeka should make an excellent FB/CHB.

B: Hardwick _ __
HB: CJ DGB Scrimshaw
C: Day Ward ____
HF: Moore Lewis ___
F: _ _ ____

R: Reeves Newcombe ___

If the likes of Worpel, Finn, MacDonald, Butler etc fill out to their promise and we start filling in those gaps very quickly.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

I actually really like the bones of the Hawks list. Think they’ll do better than most expect

The core group where we expect the most impact from every game have all been at the club 4-5 years bar Newcombe. Ward and Mcdonald are both elite talents for their age as well. Were much stronger in the ruck now also. Big boy was on his last legs and we replaced him with a guy ready to explode if given a decent crack in Meek. Reminds me of Nankervis going to Richmond when he did quite similar scenario. People misinterpret experience with leadership qualities. Sure we lost a bit of experience but I rekon there's enough leaders down there to build from.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Mitchell and the Hawks know where they are at and have brought in some good kids and have some strong leaders than can see them bounce quick, West Coast have no idea where they are at, a heap of old men being paid way too much all who have done SFA for 4 years but living off the fruits of yesteryear, how Simpson is still in a job says a fair bit about the lack of leadership at the top of West Coast

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

If WC have a good pre-season and healthy injury run, they'll go close to finals this year IMO, that might not actually be good for them in the long run though. With Tassie coming, they should probably commit as hard as possible the next two years (which seens the plan) to the draft and take the pain before the draft gets thinned again. They'll come out stronger in the long run.

Personally think if your aim is to win a flag, Saints are the furthest away so would have them as the worst list

 

[VinnieB]

I think you’re being the nuffie for thinking you know better than an AFL coach regarding a list that you seem to barely have a grasp of. That’s Bigfooty though, I guess.

The question you should have asked was “which players does Sam see as being part of the next flag?”, but instead you seemingly think that he’s wrong to have even identified players within his list who have the talent to eventually get there.

It would be nice if there was a specific Hawthorn list/rebuild thread to continue this discussion in, rather than in every second thread about “who’s the worst”, “who’s got the best kids” etc. Maybe you can start one, and we can keep ourselves entertained for the summer? Actually I have an idea.

yep...

 

[00VicWard001]

To be fair, I think what most here would be jumping on, would be the key words 'vast majority' and 'bits and pieces.'

Mitchell could very well lead you to your next flag with this list, and the pieces have begun to be assembled, but I do think it is strange to say that the 'vast majority of the club's next Premiership side has been assembled' and 'only bits and pieces need to be added' - when the rebuild has only really just begun.

Mitch Lewis needs a partner, as I don't think Kozi and Jeka (who is a forward but played as a defender) are close to his level from what they've displayed thus far. Reeves, DGB, Meek, Lynch and Blanck all show decent signs, but they're by no means projecting as Premiership level KPD's and rucks. Cooper showed some good signs but doesn't have much exposure and Ward and Worpel still have a long way to go before they can form a Premiership midfield nucleus - as Worpel has gone backwards a bit and Ward still hasn't played a full season of AFL midfield. Macdonald again shows good signs and could transition into the mids as he did at underage level, and Mackenzie was the player I wanted most above anyone - even Clark - so I think you'll have a winner there. Your back half is basically complete, and your non KPP front half (Moore, Brockman, Wingard, Breust, Macdonald etc.) and your wingers are solid. KPP's and mids are no small thing though, and I think that's where the 'bits and pieces' to be added are needed.

There's nothing wrong with saying that you're happy with how the list build is going and that things are going in the right direction, but it's a but much to suggest that a likely Bottom 6 side has the 'vast majority of its team assembled' when there is still a long way to go.

I don't personally take issue with how young the Hawks have gone, as they always rebound quickly...but you won't be making finals next year or the year after that at the least based on past history and improvement trajectories for other clubs. So 2025 or 2026 is when you're really taking this list to the next level. At that point you may be in a really good position, or half of the draftees/young trade ins you've gathered could be a bust - which will set your rebuild back further.

His commentary relies on the fact that most will succeed/not succumb to injury that are currently there, and that just seems unlikely. Serious elite depth is what allows you to contend, and outside of 10-15 or so players right now, there really isn't too much of that at the moment on form displayed - given the deep cuts you've made and the direction you've chosen to go in.

In summation, it's not the inference or train of thought that's the problem, it's the terminology that I think most would take issue with - as there's good parts thus far, but it's nowhere near complete as Mitchell suggests, IMO.

And the comment is made in a vaccuum with no consideration of other teams and how they will also develop. He shouldn't even mention the P word, rather talk about cohesiveness and building a team that is going to play together for a long time, which in turn creates opportunities for success.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

yep...

View attachment 1573553

You got trolled by Mick, it seems.

 

[Mags98]

You're clearly not familiar with some of our younger players.

no one is cause theyre no good

 

[Mags98]

You may have to run my post through some bogan-English translator but I want to be clear - outside of Tex, it wasn't the old brigade getting us the W.


Don't see how we even make the cutoff considering we have improved year of year the last 2 years, added draft and traded talent in and nave a very promising forward line, a midfield with a couple of kids who could break out any year. Yeah ok the defence looks thinner but there are several clubs worse than us.

yeah im liking what the crows are building atm, will be a tough beat next season though definitely need some additions to the backline

 

[Noidnadroj]

I get Darling is being paid a lot more than he’s worth but not that many 450+ goal players and he’s done it in the hardest era to score. Just like Tex the guy gets disrespected too much

Darling is nearly 31 start of 2023, with 3 years left … that’s the problem. And he’s on the decline.

Goals + goal assist averages:

2018: 3.1
2019: 3.2
2020: 2.5
2021: 2.4
2022: 2.0

As a comparison … Brody Mihocek:

2021: 1.9
2022: 2.2

Jack Riewoldt:

2021: 3.1
2022: 2.5

Jack was supposedly on the cusp of retirement… then re-signed on apparently $300k.

So big money for the 2018-19 version of Darling, no problem.

But big money for 31-33yo Jack Darling in 2023-25 … that’s a problem.




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[VinnieB]

Darling is nearly 31 start of 2023, with 3 years left … that’s the problem. And he’s on the decline.

Goals + goal assist averages:

2018: 3.1
2019: 3.2
2020: 2.5
2021: 2.4
2022: 2.0

As a comparison … Brody Mihocek:

2021: 1.9
2022: 2.2

Jack Riewoldt:

2021: 3.1
2022: 2.5

Jack was supposedly on the cusp of retirement… then re-signed on apparently $300k.

So big money for the 2018-19 version of Darling, no problem.

But big money for 31-33yo Jack Darling in 2023-25 … that’s a problem.




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I always wonder with goal assists how reliant these numbers are on the performance of your teammates/forwards.
Collingwood obviously had a better year this season and kicked more goals (or more players kicked more goals) so Mihocek's goal assist numbers are better.

Darling's numbers seem to be fairly correlated to maybe Kennedy's decline and the performance of other forwards who haven't had good years, or have been injured.

But, notwithstanding that, I agree in that he isn't going to help West Coast and probably is overpaid.

 

[bh90210fan]

I always wonder with goal assists how reliant these numbers are on the performance of your teammates/forwards.
Collingwood obviously had a better year this season and kicked more goals (or more players kicked more goals) so Mihocek's goal assist numbers are better.

Darling's numbers seem to be fairly correlated to maybe Kennedy's decline and the performance of other forwards who haven't had good years, or have been injured.

But, notwithstanding that, I agree in that he isn't going to help West Coast and probably is overpaid.

Shortened quarters, team was shit, sitting out a preseason

All contributing factors

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Reality is going to hit a few Hawks supporters very hard over the next 12 months.

There may be a few good players on that list but nothing that stands out over and above any other club. Going into a season with an average player age of 23.1 is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[BigVic]

It has to be West Coast. Worst list by a mile and will struggle in 2023.

 

[Bestbird]

It has to be West Coast. Worst list by a mile and will struggle in 2023.

Pretty hard to judge West Coast list as it was decimated by injuries before the season even began

 

[illegaleagle]

Pretty hard to judge West Coast list as it was decimated by injuries before the season even began

Allan, Cole, Chesser 0 games last year
Sheed 1 game
Yeo 5 games, McGovern 10 games Nicnat
8 Games

There’s 7 guys that played maybe 24 games between them last year that will play a lot more games this year. Loads of other guys missed numerous games. I can’t see Eagles getting worse next year, maybe win 5 to 7 games or so.

The overpaying of the older players debate isn’t an issue when your a poor team as you have to pay 95% of the salary cap anyway. Who else deserves the money not the 10 guys that were delisted or the young guys that are unproven.

Darling kicking 2 goals a game is
Pretty decent really in a team that only won 2 games and struggled to kick more than 10 goals on average. So they may as well overpay for him than someone who’s about to be delisted or young and unproven.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

At Present
Hawthorn
Long term
West Coast.

 

[76woodenspooners]

But I thought the Pies had a s**t list this time last year... so...

There can be quite a difference between a good list and a good team.

Lots of other factors go into winning or losing games of footy - coaches for example.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I don't understand why anybody would have an issue with that comment.

We've quickly become the youngest team in the competition after hitting the draft hard and securing talent from other clubs still with plenty of footy left in the tank.

If you consider Mitchells comment to be laughable are you suggesting that the young talent on the list isn't capable of developing over the next 5-10 years?

He isn't suggesting the team in its current form are premiership fancies heading into 2023.

But what is wrong with a coach anticipating that his side is primed for future success once Will Day, DGB, Josh Ward, Connor Macdonald, Cam Mackenzie, Josh Weddle, Jai Newcombe, Dylan Moore, Jiath, Ned Reeves, Mitchell Lewis, Jack Scrimshaw, Sam Butler and co have played 50-100 games together? He believes in his young men. That's all.

The comment is purely from a list demographic perspective and one that proves he has confidence in this current group executing a game plan that will win finals as they mature.

Early Suns and GWS teams were filled to the brim with the best young talent in the comp, but that didn’t mean that they were successful. There needs to be more than that.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Early Suns and GWS teams were filled to the brim with the best young talent in the comp, but that didn’t mean that they were successful. There needs to be more than that.

Completely different scenarios. Half the players I mentioned are about to hit their prime years or are there already. That's why Sam Mitchell likes what he sees and his confidence isn't just based on hopeful development like those expansion sides.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Eagles are cooked. Committed to lots of long-term big money deals for injury prone or under-performing players:

Gaff (2 more years)
Yeo (2 more years)
NicNat (2 more years)
Allen (3 more years) *good youngster but injury prone
Tim Kelly (3 more years)
Jack Darling (3 more years)
*Kelly and Darling being paid superstar money but
they’re well below that level.

Having said that, post-2017 I thought the Eagles were in big trouble as their midfield was hopeless in quality and depth …. Then they won the flag ….


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The biggest issue with most of these blokes is they just so clearly couldn’t give a ****. They seem just content to lay around and stink the joint up for the rest of their contracts.