Training 2015/16 preseason training (discussion)

[Fred Ziffel]

I'm so conflicted. I want him to cut his hair soooooo badly.

Want no more; it is gone.

 

[Taylor]

OHh. I thought that is what it would be.
Are they supposed to kick goals ? I can't think who plays that position at the other clubs.

The best ones I can think of in previous season are Nicoski at West Coast and Palmer at GWS. Ideally we want our own to be two way running like a mid, fast enough and able to read the play - which are all better suited to creative roles for us.

 

[Shadow Man]

I'm so conflicted. I want him to cut his hair soooooo badly.

Long is ok, just not the man-bun. He's so much better than that.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Long is ok, just not the man-bun. He's so much better than that.

Too late. The long is gone and the bun is in, albeit a small bun.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

The best ones I can think of in previous season are Nicoski at West Coast and Palmer at GWS. Ideally we want our own to be two way running like a mid, fast enough and able to read the play - which are all better suited to creative roles for us.

Thanks Taylor.
I would rather a forward who is too busy being chased, to worry about other things.
Very confusing game this.

 

[Shadow Man]

Too late. The long is gone and the bun is in, albeit a small bun.

 

[Allikat]

Too late. The long is gone and the bun is in, albeit a small bun.

I'm going to have to talk to him about this when I'm in Perth next week

 

[Taylor]

Thanks Taylor.
I would rather a forward who is too busy being chased, to worry about other things.
Very confusing game this.

It is all a game of metres, if our worst forward is keeping their best creative defender out of the game it is a huge win. Obviously we prefer that the win of that position is because our worst forward is kicking goals.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Something else I saw late in the session this morning was Matt Taberner having a huge chuck outside the gym.

Stephen Hill was standing behind him laughing while Tabs was on his hands and knees spewing his guts up.

It brought much mirth to others on the oval.
Usually you see instances of this after players have just returned from the break and after a huge run. Not rushing out of the gym.
Must have been strenuous stuff going on in the gym.

Good to see Yarran, Bennell and Fyfe getting in a lot of running too.

 

[Bicco]

It is all a game of metres, if our worst forward is keeping their best creative defender out of the game it is a huge win. Obviously we prefer that the win of that position is because our worst forward is kicking goals.

The obvious thing here is that in at least the last two games vs Hawks, Mayne has been flogged by Gibson, neither impacting offensively or defensively. The problem with role players is they inevitably fail one on one vs quality. This is the risk Lyon can't bring himself to take. To give a quality player who my fail in the 'role' but excell in that undefinable 50/50 moment that can win you a contest and game.

 

[Unique Name]

It is all a game of metres, if our worst forward is keeping their best creative defender out of the game it is a huge win. Obviously we prefer that the win of that position is because our worst forward is kicking goals.

Would you say it's similar to the tagging role in that against poor teams who have less play makers it's effective. But against better sides that have more options it's somewhat limited.

This is my gripe with these defensive positions, it works well against the lesser teams even though we could beat them going fully offensive. Then when it comes to the better teams we might be able to completely lock down a single player but the opposition usually have so many options it doesn't really effect them.

 

[Sully90]

The obvious thing here is that in at least the last two games vs Hawks, Mayne has been flogged by Gibson, neither impacting offensively or defensively. The problem with role players is they inevitably fail one on one vs quality. This is the risk Lyon can't bring himself to take. To give a quality player who my fail in the 'role' but excell in that undefinable 50/50 moment that can win you a contest and game.

To be fair the only time that Gibson gets beaten is against two genuine key forwards and even then it's not 100% certain. The only recent time I can think of is against Eagles in the Qualifying final, he couldn't just peel off to the main threat because both Darling and Kennedy were equally contributing and beating their respective defenders. Lucky for him they both played rubbish the GF.

 

[Bicco]

To be fair the only time that Gibson gets beaten is against two genuine key forwards and even then it's not 100% certain. The only recent time I can think of is against Eagles in the Qualifying final, he couldn't just peel off to the main threat because both Darling and Kennedy were equally contributing and beating their respective defenders. Lucky for him they both played rubbish the GF.

Therefore, to beat the Hawks, you need your 'defensive forward' to excell defensively or offensively. Role players do not 'excell'. They play their role. Hence the problem.

 

[wayToGo_]

Just being the devil's advocate here but what is a defensive forward and who plays it at Hawthorn , Sydney, Port, Geelong, wc , North, Richmond and Bulldogs ?

I don't think you have many exclusively defensive forwards in today's game (they still have to be kicking goals) but I actually think the need for all forwards to be capable defensively is more important than ever before. Putting pressure on an opposition's back line has a huge knock on effect down field. A pressured kick often misses its target or gets intercepted and even if the intended target gets it they will often be under greater pressure also, and so on down the line. Keeping the ball locked in your forward line is not only going to end up in a score more often than not but is going wear down your opponents regardless. I think we look a lot better when Ballas and Mayne are applying pressure and stopping the free flow of our opposition out of their back half.

I think the only reason West Coast did well last season was because their pressure started with their forwards - as soon as that wasn't there it was a disaster (ie the GF - well that and they didn't turn up). I don't agree that forward defensive pressure is pointless on the best teams - I think it is the only way to stop a Hawthorn because if they are able to transition out of defence unimpeded you know that ball is coming through pretty cleanly down field and served up on a platter to their impressive forward line for a goal.

 

[malpaso]

Therefore, to beat the Hawks, you need your 'defensive forward' to excell defensively or offensively. Role players do not 'excell'. They play their role. Hence the problem.

Well if your a defensive forward and that's your role, then you didn't play your role if Gibson wins.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Well if your a defensive forward and that's your role, then you didn't play your role if Gibson wins.

Precisely.
The team loses on both counts but then again it could be said that if he kicks five goals but Gibson plays well, he has failed in his role.
Paradoxically, If he kicks five goals and we win the game, he could be dropped for not playing his role and following the coach's instructions.

 

[G Mus]

Just being the devil's advocate here but what is a defensive forward and who plays it at Hawthorn , Sydney, Port, Geelong, wc , North, Richmond and Bulldogs ?

To be fair, rioli is quite defensive

 

[Ripper]

It is both.
He has definitely cut most of it off and the remainder is tied back into a gorgeous little back knot.

Fraid so. It looks smaller than Cam McCarthy's tho, if that is any consolation.
But let's face it, he had to do something with it. Looked bloody awful.

Oh no! Not one of those please

Long is ok, just not the man-bun. He's so much better than that.

Settle down girls.

 

[theGav56]

The obvious thing here is that in at least the last two games vs Hawks, Mayne has been flogged by Gibson, neither impacting offensively or defensively. The problem with role players is they inevitably fail one on one vs quality. This is the risk Lyon can't bring himself to take. To give a quality player who my fail in the 'role' but excell in that undefinable 50/50 moment that can win you a contest and game.

I think you are off the mark.

Lyon doesn't gift players games;
1) who have not hit fitness markers or
2) who have not absorbed the game plan games.

Once the have achieved those things they are available.

Which quality players versus which role players who fit those markers do you think should have got games? Until the likes of Langdon, Weller and co hit those markers it becomes a debate about Suban/de Boer/Mzungu versus Grey, a decision of little consequence imo.

He has also demonstrated with Clarke (potential quality) versus Griffin (role player)that he has preferred the player with the higher ceiling. He also has given Crozier ample opportunity to lock down a position in the best 22.

 

[Scham]

The obvious thing here is that in at least the last two games vs Hawks, Mayne has been flogged by Gibson, neither impacting offensively or defensively. The problem with role players is they inevitably fail one on one vs quality. This is the risk Lyon can't bring himself to take. To give a quality player who my fail in the 'role' but excell in that undefinable 50/50 moment that can win you a contest and game.

Mayne is Gibsons bitch. He flogs him every time we play the Hawks. Has done for years.

 

[Unique Name]

[/QUOTE]

I think you are off the mark.

Lyon doesn't gift players games;
1) who have not hit fitness markers

I think there has been quite a few occasions when players have been given games even though not fully fit. Clarke and his ribs in 14 barely impacting the game. Mayne and his ankle in 14 against Sydney. My memory is hazy but Macca in 14 against Geelong only managed a half. Fyfe on 15 in multiple games clearly wasn't even close to 100%. I'm sure there are more but i think these would have been judgement calls, not hitting all right fitness markers.

 

[Alfonz]

Yarran's a medium forward and he's better at kicking goals. Is there room for both in the forward line? If you've got Pav, Walters, Ballantyne, Bennell on a flank (sorry, i'm not ignoring him), one of our talls (Tabs/Ape/whoever else) at FF/CHF and at times a resting ruck, it's already looking pretty full on.

I love Mayne but it's been two years of average goalkicking form (numbers, forget accuracy). He's kicked 41 goals in the last two years. If you think our forward line doesn't need to change, i'm not sure what to tell you. Hope this doesn't come across as too harsh, there needs to be some kind of pub talk emote to show my blend of shrugging and slurring to convey this.

Not harsh at all. And I'm not saying our forward line doesn't need to change. Quite the contrary. I'm all for adding extra goalkickers. I wish we had snared Stevie J for a season. Mayne/Yarran swap is actually doing less to change our forward line than playing both of them.

I'd be playing with one genuine KPF (Pav/Apeness/Taberner). Resting ruckman and more forward time from Fyfe can provide extra height. If we had McCarthy or Hogan, then I'm all for a different setup. But we just don't have any good second tall KPFs at the moment. If Yarran is capable, I think he should come into the side at the expense of someone who can't kick goals, not Mayne. I'd ignore 2014 (injuries) for Mayne, 2012/13/15 suggests he is capable of kicking 30-35 goals.

Gunston-Roughead-Rioli-Puopolo-Bruest ... Kennedy-Darling-Hill-LeCras-Cripps ... Betts-Walker-Lynch-Cameron-Jenkins .... Waite-Petrie-Brown-Thomas-Higgins ... Pavlich-Walters-Ballantyne-Mayne-???. Every side is different, but I feel we would benefit from 5 main forwards who can kick goals. Yarran could be that 5th, but if you then turf Mayne, we still need to find another 5th. Not convinced Taberner/Apeness can be that player. Maybe we need extra output from Fyfe/Bennell to compensate for poorer forwards, but we don't want to put too much reliance on them.

Anyway, this is enough derailment to the training thread. Hopefully Apeness/Taberner can win the training the house down award and actually prove themselves to be good enough to kick some goals.

 

[mustlovepurple]

Nathan can wear a hessian sack and pigtails for all I care!...i like he has a sense of style,not fussed about wearing a suit that resembles a 70's velvet flocked poster,can rock a bulgari watch and a cane,he's young ,likes to take risks,and he is a afl mvp, 2015 brownlow medalist,helicopter pilot.road train driver,surfing .fremantle player and unlike sharon w..he can really play football.

 

[Bicco]

I think you are off the mark.

Lyon doesn't gift players games;
1) who have not hit fitness markers or
2) who have not absorbed the game plan games.

Once the have achieved those things they are available.

Which quality players versus which role players who fit those markers do you think should have got games? Until the likes of Langdon, Weller and co hit those markers it becomes a debate about Suban/de Boer/Mzungu versus Grey, a decision of little consequence imo.

He has also demonstrated with Clarke (potential quality) versus Griffin (role player)that he has preferred the player with the higher ceiling. He also has given Crozier ample opportunity to lock down a position in the best 22.

Josh Simpson is the obvious one here. Lachie as sub in the GF and multiple games last year when the players you mentioned were playing well for Peel but not being allowed to 'spread their wings' in the firsts. You're completely right on Lyons markers for getting a game. That's his strength and his weakness. Talent is talent. Lyon struggles with that. He has a formula that is very successful, no doubt, he is the best coach we've ever had. Clearly the output of Mayne, Suban and Deboer is known and for Lyon that is enough to keep picking them, even when it's also known that their level of output won't be enough to contribute to a win (my Gibson reference earlier). Bennell/Yarran/Simpson vs Gibson would be a whole different dynamic for the Hawks to deal with. The Hawks must look at our selections and just know they have the advantage. This will be a very interesting year for us. I know we will do well.

 

[Moo]

Just being the devil's advocate here but what is a defensive forward and who plays it at Hawthorn , Sydney, Port, Geelong, wc , North, Richmond and Bulldogs ?

Whichever forward is struggling to kick goals.