List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[martinson]

Bored thought bubble.

Levi Ashcroft shows all the signs of being very good straight up in 2025, if Sam Marshall has a really good year and moves up the ratings do we contemplate looking at trading out someone with currency who has not quite lived up to expectations?

eg. Cam Rayner, Zac Bailey, Jarrod Berry. Not all 3, just one.

I reckon some of these guys need to show more this year to justify what other clubs would be willing to pay them.

But not of a mind to pitch anyone out who gets a regular game and contributes.

Unless we're reasonably confident of something better in return.

 

[Pride of lions]

Is it poor drafting or poor development? There seems to be a complete lack of improvement in so many players over the last 5 years. That’s why our depth is so shallow.

 

[briztoon]

Sorry had issues with my iPad. I know we do have them - but your comment I was responding to was

Quote- ‘Teams employ psychologists, body language experts, and others to do background checks on the kids’

The area that needs the most attention is a strengthening and retention of the talent scouts rather than spending what i consider heaps of money on body language experts, focus more on the expertise of the talent scouts themselves. A one stop shop so to speak rather than multiple people essentially doing the same job, that one person can do. Upskill existing talent managers who have a track record of success. If that means getting in talent from other clubs so be it.

Correct me if i am wrong but I heard in WA (this was during the pandemic and the financial issues all clubs were facing with spending caps ,the lions had no representation in WA , could be wrong , I thought that was what I heard).

The club can save money there and spend it where it counts i.e finding the next Wilmot. So bottom line SPEND MORE WISELY and focus on the people that will help us achieve great results well into the future. Can tell you now Fitzroy was almost bankrupt but there scouts were outstanding. Gary Pert, Paul Roos etc They could not afford body language experts. I think you know where I am heading with this.

That was the point I was trying to make.

I do not know the workings of recruiting teams, how many people make up a team, etc. Looking at the amount of people in the draft rooms on draft night, some clubs have a lot of recruiting staff, others not so many.

Talent scouts can only do so much, and the figures I've heard recently, many of them are doing it for their love of the game and role, and not for the money. Their primary job is to judge talent, and that includes a lot of coding of the U18 games during the week, not just sitting in the stands on weekends. And there are a LOT of U18 games each week across Vic, SA and WA.

Those psychologists and others, are also footy people and are watching the games as well, judging talent. But they also have a role when it comes to interviewing players and their family, coaches, teaches, etc.

It's not multiple people doing the same job, it's multiple people doing THEIR job, to help the head recruiter put together as complete a picture as possible.

Put it another way, just have talent scouts and none of the others, and we likely end up with more Schache's and less Wilmot's.

As far as I know, we've always had a part time scout in WA. They work weekends and report to Conole. I know one of the posters on the West Coast board knows him personally, rates him very highly.

 

[Sproj]

Is it poor drafting or poor development? There seems to be a complete lack of improvement in so many players over the last 5 years. That’s why our depth is so shallow.

Which, along with the inability to change game plans, move with the times, etc unfortunately points to poor coaching. And honestly, I feel so bad saying it because Fages has been wonderful for the club and deserves all the accolades he gets...but everyone gets stale at some point and unfortunately, the cracks that are now glaring have all been there for some time.

I honestly hope I get proven wrong but a number of players seem to have really stagnated and few of the outside team guys get much of a chance no matter how bad the incumbents go, this does need breed competition for spots or desire to develop to your best if the door is never opened no matter how well you do or if it is, gets slammed on the back of one average showing.

This just does not look a happy group right now, man I hope I end up with egg on my face.

 

[BuntonRules]

Put it another way, just have talent scouts and none of the others, and we likely end up with more Schache's and less Wilmot's.

As far as I know, we've always had a part time scout in WA. They work weekends and report to Conole. I know one of the posters on the West Coast board knows him personally, rates him very highly.

First bit is a given. Well spoke.

Was it not Richard Hadley's old man for a while?

 

[briztoon]

First bit is a given. Well spoke.

Was it not Richard Hadley's old man for a while?

Conversation was from aa couple of years ago, so I don't remember the name.

 

[cotter101]

I do not know the workings of recruiting teams, how many people make up a team, etc. Looking at the amount of people in the draft rooms on draft night, some clubs have a lot of recruiting staff, others not so many.

Talent scouts can only do so much, and the figures I've heard recently, many of them are doing it for their love of the game and role, and not for the money. Their primary job is to judge talent, and that includes a lot of coding of the U18 games during the week, not just sitting in the stands on weekends. And there are a LOT of U18 games each week across Vic, SA and WA.

Those psychologists and others, are also footy people and are watching the games as well, judging talent. But they also have a role when it comes to interviewing players and their family, coaches, teaches, etc.

It's not multiple people doing the same job, it's multiple people doing THEIR job, to help the head recruiter put together as complete a picture as possible.

Put it another way, just have talent scouts and none of the others, and we likely end up with more Schache's and less Wilmot's.

As far as I know, we've always had a part time scout in WA. They work weekends and report to Conole. I know one of the posters on the West Coast board knows him personally, rates him very highly.

We always used to have two. Terry Pass and Brett Wills.

 

[Nathan Barley]

First bit is a given. Well spoke.

Was it not Richard Hadley's old man for a while?

Graeme Hadley. Didn't realise he was related. Mastermind behind the 08 draft IIRC

 

[KissKiss]

Bored thought bubble.

Levi Ashcroft shows all the signs of being very good straight up in 2025, if Sam Marshall has a really good year and moves up the ratings do we contemplate looking at trading out someone with currency who has not quite lived up to expectations?

eg. Cam Rayner, Zac Bailey, Jarrod Berry. Not all 3, just one.

At this point no-one will trade anything for Berry. Way too out of form and too many injury concerns for anyone to cough up andything valuable at the trade table.

Of those three only really Bailey would attract enough to be worth it IMO. He still has the mix of attribute to be an elite forward and/or part mid

 

[M Malice]

At this point no-one will trade anything for Berry. Way too out of form and too many injury concerns for anyone to cough up andything valuable at the trade table.

Of those three only really Bailey would attract enough to be worth it IMO. He still has the mix of attribute to be an elite forward and/or part mid

Strongly agree on Bailey, he is an elite small forward, enough of a sample size to deduce he is not a significant midfield time player... similar to Rayner, he is a 3rd tall forward with short stints in the middle, both never going to be midfielders.

Lets use our players weapons.

 

[Tom14]

Berry is a free agent this year, wouldn't be traded regardless.

 

[mpal6]

Is it poor drafting or poor development? There seems to be a complete lack of improvement in so many players over the last 5 years. That’s why our depth is so shallow.

Bit of both I think. Dev Robertson was a fantastic inside mid in his draft year, he was looking like at par to Serong while playing inside. But Serong has been giving the primary ball winning mid duties at Fremantle and has flourished while Dev has meandered along.

Did Dev get the role that he excelled in as a junior? may be not, we had Neale, Lyons (at his peak) for starters. Would Dev have evolved to Serong's current level if given that opportunity? no idea.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Bit of both I think. Dev Robertson was a fantastic inside mid in his draft year, he was looking like at par to Serong while playing inside. But Serong has been giving the primary ball winning mid duties at Fremantle and has flourished while Dev has meandered along.

Did Dev get the role that he excelled in as a junior? may be not, we had Neale, Lyons (at his peak) for starters. Would Dev have evolved to Serong's current level if given that opportunity? no idea.

He needed the opportunity to develop other skills as well though. If he's solely relying on his inside game he'd have to be close to a Matt Rowell

Unfortunately his outside game doesn't seem to have improved

 

[Bucking Beads]

We’re going to need to get super aggressive with list management over the next few years. I this group doesn’t get a flag we’re going to bottom out when the Tassie draft concessions hit.

 

[briztoon]

We’re going to need to get super aggressive with list management over the next few years. I this group doesn’t get a flag we’re going to bottom out when the Tassie draft concessions hit.

I'm sort of hoping we have enough talent coming through our academy to avoid a complete bottom out, and we still have enough talent on our list under 26.

The players I see being difficult to replace are Daniher and Andrews, and we'll still need a big bodied mid with decent skills. A lot of our academy mids, along with the Ashcrofts, are all in that 177cm to 183cm height range.

 

[mpal6]

I'm sort of hoping we have enough talent coming through our academy to avoid a complete bottom out, and we still have enough talent on our list under 26.

The players I see being difficult to replace are Daniher and Andrews, and we'll still need a big bodied mid with decent skills. A lot of our academy mids, along with the Ashcrofts, are all in that 177cm to 183cm height range.

We've been searching for that big body mid for 5 years now . CEY, Ely, search goes on. Dunkley came in but Lyons declined so he started taking over 2nd mid instead of being the +1 big body mid.

Looks like Fremantle got a good template now, they moved Young to the middle along with Fyfe and suddenly they look supersized next to Jackson, Serong and Brayshaw. We could do something like that, but none of our potential players are in that +1.9m category. Wilmot is 1.83, Starce is 1.87, Fletcher is 1.83 and Coleman is 1.82.

We could throw a hailmary and send Lester or Gardiner (both 1.92) to the middle, to take on opposition big mids like Cripps or Bontempelli. Just need to free up Dunkley as I believe he can do more damage than be just a defensive mid.

 

[Nathan Barley]

We've been searching for that big body mid for 5 years now . CEY, Ely, search goes on. Dunkley came in but Lyons declined so he started taking over 2nd mid instead of being the +1 big body mid.

Looks like Fremantle got a good template now, they moved Young to the middle along with Fyfe and suddenly they look supersized next to Jackson, Serong and Brayshaw. We could do something like that, but none of our potential players are in that +1.9m category. Wilmot is 1.83, Starce is 1.87, Fletcher is 1.83 and Coleman is 1.82.

We could throw a hailmary and send Lester or Gardiner (both 1.92) to the middle, to take on opposition big mids like Cripps or Bontempelli. Just need to free up Dunkley as I believe he can do more damage than be just a defensive mid.

Rayner?

 

[mpal6]

Rayner?

I think that ship has sailed. None of Dev, Cam appear to be play instinct footy to go under packs. Only person who is ball hunting is Neale, he may be best in the business with 2 brownlows but without proper support act our midfield will continue to struggle. McCluggage looked promising back in 2021 or 2022 (when Neale was unavailable middle of the season for few games), it feels like he hasn't evolved into that next level for whatever reason.

I'll start believing again when one of our mids (other than Neale) dives head first into packs and starts scrapping for ball like Rowell is doing this season for Gold Coast. Currently the next in line is standing on the outskirts of ball ups worrying more about their direct opposition players than trying to win that first possession.

 

[knaf]

We've been searching for that big body mid for 5 years now . CEY, Ely, search goes on. Dunkley came in but Lyons declined so he started taking over 2nd mid instead of being the +1 big body mid.

Looks like Fremantle got a good template now, they moved Young to the middle along with Fyfe and suddenly they look supersized next to Jackson, Serong and Brayshaw. We could do something like that, but none of our potential players are in that +1.9m category. Wilmot is 1.83, Starce is 1.87, Fletcher is 1.83 and Coleman is 1.82.

We could throw a hailmary and send Lester or Gardiner (both 1.92) to the middle, to take on opposition big mids like Cripps or Bontempelli. Just need to free up Dunkley as I believe he can do more damage than be just a defensive mid.

Two or three ,maybe four years ago Lester played a half in the seconds as an in side mid. I reckon he had 20 possessions and fed the ball out intelligently to the runners with most of them in that half. Hasn’t been played much as a mid since, maybe because he lost pace recovering from his back related hamstring. Seems to have recovered some pace now. Might be worth a couple of hail Mary’s and an our father.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Two or three ,maybe four years ago Lester played a half in the seconds as an in side mid. I reckon he had 20 possessions and fed the ball out intelligently to the runners with most of them in that half. Hasn’t been played much as a mid since, maybe because he lost pace recovering from his back related hamstring. Seems to have recovered some pace now. Might be worth a couple of hail Mary’s and an our father.

Many moons ago he was our most effective at clearances (the team was most likely to win the clearance when he was in there)

 

[mpal6]

Two or three ,maybe four years ago Lester played a half in the seconds as an in side mid. I reckon he had 20 possessions and fed the ball out intelligently to the runners with most of them in that half. Hasn’t been played much as a mid since, maybe because he lost pace recovering from his back related hamstring. Seems to have recovered some pace now. Might be worth a couple of hail Mary’s and an our father.

Yep I was thinking about that midfield stint of Lester in 2s when I put his name there. He's a smart player and will be better suited to wrestling with say Cripps as well as releasing our runners. It's a shame we don't have a player in the 2s who can be called upon to fill this profile.

This may be a drafting gap, that 2021 draft may have helped us address it. We got Kai at 20, I know briztoon really wanted Goater (190cm) who went at 21, Matthew Johnson (193cm) was at 22 and Mitch Knevitt (193cm) went at 25.

 

[M Malice]

Maybe one of Logan Morris or Luke Lloyd can become a "big bodied" mid.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Where would fitting in another big bodied mid leave Neale?

 

[M Malice]

Where would fitting in another big bodied mid leave Neale?

Haven't you heard Lachie is going back to the Dockers at the end of the season.

 

[mpal6]

Where would fitting in another big bodied mid leave Neale?

Neale is 31 this May. This is another interesting discussion, he doesn't have gears like Zorko where you can send him forward or play him down back as a playmaker small. Let's see what happens when the cliff arrives eventually.

I think it's reasonable to start planning for the next wave after Neale.