List Mgmt. 2023 Trade & List Management discussion

[Elixuh]

Fair argument. For sure it's advantage for Vic teams. But I don't see it as a huge problem for a player to move interstate and family to follow him in 3 months. Every second weekend players can basically see the family. Obviously, nobody would move for 3 months. I bet Goldstein would move for a chance to win it all.

People are putting pretty reasonable propositions to you based on what we have seen historically in the AFL and you're making very generous leaps of logic against those pretty well known truths.

Of course there is a reasonable chance that if Brisbane is the only suitor, Goldstein would give serious consideration to moving up here (without knowing his family situation). But the better hypothetical is always going to be comparing how it would work for your average Vic team against your average non-Vic team with a special emphasis on northern States who have the lowest representation of homegrown talent in the league.

It all skews so far in favour of Vic clubs, I can't see why any non-vic side, especially Lions/GCS/Swans/GWS would be in favour of it.

 

[briztoon]

Easy, Mr briztoon. I had 2 kids born in two different countries and raised them in 3 countries without any family support. While moving between countries I spent months alone, arranging moves.

Does my answer fit your narrative?

Not really.

More respect to you.

Don't believe many AFL players would sacrifice family, even for a short term, for a shot at a championship.

Most of the players moving won't be on "big" money in an AFL sense.

 

[briztoon]

You think Brisbane have been financially viable for most of our existence? Thankfully the time of allowing any club to go bankrupt is in the past.

You completely missed the point.

The VFL didn't attract the media deals the AFL does. It's why the VFL expanded in the first place. It was dying financially.

It's not about if individual clubs are financially viable. It's about the league as a whole being financially viable and ensuring the existence of the remaining VFL teams.

A true national competition doesn't have more than half the clubs in one city. Doesn't have the grand final locked in to said city for the next 50 years.

 

[dlanod]

If I go back to middle of 2023, I would say there would be only one Vic club which could compete with Lions - Collingwood, maybe Melbourne too. Chance of that scenario (Lions vs Collingwood fighting for a ruck) happening is pretty low.

The chance to win premiership would be, my guess, the most important factor for Goldstein. If Lions would offer more money, longer contract, who knows you could even beat Collingwood.

You did attract some good players. I am pretty sure Daniher had interest from other (Vic) clubs too.

Goldstein declined several trades to better interstate clubs while NM was not doing well (GWS enquired a number of times for starters, West Coast was reported at different points in previous years as well). I think the preference to stay in Victoria was substantially higher than competing for a premiership. And that's very very common.

 

[M Malice]

I could envision Victorian based players taking the mid season trade option to go to an interstate club.... but only if said club is truly in contention for a flag.

Players generally get their way if they want a trade, the club they are leaving don't have much bargaining power.
The huge majority of mid season trades would be between Victorian clubs.
The players being traded by and large will be fringe role players.

In saying all that I hate the idea of a mid season trade period, list and injury management is a skill.

 

[Viceregal]

There are kids who are desperately hoping to get on a list, any list, and even West Coast or Melbourne are better than nothing.

There are kids who know they will be getting drafted and they tend to be more picky.

There are kids who not only know they are getting drafted but who will be welcome anywhere two years later and they tend to be the ones who let it be known (hopefully subtly) where they want to go and usually the rest of the comp either bows to the inevitable or is desperate enough to see if they can keep them (normally they cannot and it starts over two years later (or one!) with the draft capital from the trade...

If you were the reincarnation of GAJ, GAS, Lethal, Voss and Judd (yes I know very busy soul there!) and were picking not just your place of work but your life career trajectory ... would you really pick anywhere but a larger Melb team or Geelong? The travel alone would be enough of a factor unless you were a die hard Freo fan shudder and wanted to get them their maiden flag first. And as for post playing opportunities well ...

We had to give Gunners a few years to get him to come up here ... another Vic team might have gotten away with just one - the 'overs' we pay is not just for the cap space but also the contract length.

The point? (we need to have a point????) Desperate fill ins might work on a level playing field basis (mostly) but your fringe 22 players and excellent depth will be highly plunderable and the ones who are really worth having and are currently best 22 will only go where they want to and for their own reasons.

 

[Sproj]

I suppose an argument also potentially against mid season trade is we have benefited twice in recent years with end of season trade and players being held to their contract in Daniher and Dunkley.

Both were off to other clubs the year before but weren’t allowed to go. Would we have got them in the MST or would they have gone elsewhere?

Also how does it work in theory in terms of draft picks. Like if draft picks come into it which surely they would, even if you lose a talent you want to keep to a Vic club, you could potentially get an overs draft pick in return.

 

[Tom14]

To add my 2c, I think what is missed here is that players basically have a year to make their mind up ahead of a move actually happening these days. Every club talks to agents, and a lot of groundwork is done by even the mid point of the season.

After the season ends is the time where the player's partner/family has a chance to visit with the club, meet some of the existing players etc. There's a process whereby we can sell them on living in Brisbane.

Even with that though, I can't remember the last player we recruited who already had kids. Mitch Robbo?

I can't imagine most players being super willing to move interstate mid-season, and you wouldn't have time to reach out to the family, show them how they'll be helped to settle in, etc.

 

[briztoon]

To add my 2c, I think what is missed here is that players basically have a year to make their mind up ahead of a move actually happening these days. Every club talks to agents, and a lot of groundwork is done by even the mid point of the season.

After the season ends is the time where the player's partner/family has a chance to visit with the club, meet some of the existing players etc. There's a process whereby we can sell them on living in Brisbane.

Even with that though, I can't remember the last player we recruited who already had kids. Mitch Robbo?

I can't imagine most players being super willing to move interstate mid-season, and you wouldn't have time to reach out to the family, show them how they'll be helped to settle in, etc.

Hodge.

 

[rye]

Not to diminish from the wider point being made but i believe doedee is married and has children

On SM-A536E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Tom14]

Not to diminish from the wider point being made but i believe doedee is married and has children

On SM-A536E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Lol. You'd think I'd be smart enough to check the life story of our most recent recruit.

 

[Jirik13]

Goldstein declined several trades to better interstate clubs while NM was not doing well (GWS enquired a number of times for starters, West Coast was reported at different points in previous years as well). I think the preference to stay in Victoria was substantially higher than competing for a premiership. And that's very very common.

Yes, that's sound about right. But who knows what would happen if Lions came calling, haha. Even bloody cooked Gunston moved to Brisbane for the last chance to win it. It's individual.

Regarding MST, all I am saying that it could come handy even for interstate teams in case of injuries. Definitely, Vic clubs have inherent advantages as many people mentioned many times but it's not as black and white. Of course, it depends how it will be implemented (a lot of justified scepticism here).

FWIW, I think that it will not be top players but mostly fringe players who play in VFL. If it will be some young players which clubs would prefer to keep (like Moyle) I believe teams will have to pay up. Players who will be probably delisted (like Sharp) will go cheap. I suspect players desperate for opportunity, next contract will go anywhere. And then there are players who had enough of Vic bubble (like Daniher, Grundy). Surely, moving cost could be covered by AFL.

Enough on MST from me.

 

[briztoon]

Yes, that's sound about right. But who knows what would happen if Lions came calling, haha. Even bloody cooked Gunston moved to Brisbane for the last chance to win it. It's individual.

Regarding MST, all I am saying that it could come handy even for interstate players in case of injuries. Definitely, Vic clubs have inherent advantages as many people mentioned many times but it's not as black and white. Of course, it depends how it will be implemented (a lot of justified scepticism here).

FWIW, I think that it will not be top players but mostly fringe players who play in VFL. If it will be some young players which clubs would prefer to keep (like Moyle) I believe teams will have to pay up. Players who will be probably delisted (like Sharp) will go cheap. I suspect players desperate for opportunity, next contract will go anywhere. And then there are players who had enough of Vic bubble (like Daniher, Grundy). Surely, moving cost could be covered by AFL.

Enough on MST from me.

AFL do have a cost of moving allowance. It was $5k last I looked.

 

[McIvor]

The huge majority of mid season trades would be between Victorian clubs.
The players being traded by and large will be fringe role players.

In saying all that I hate the idea of a mid season trade period, list and injury management is a skill.

I think the exception is Victorian players at interstate teams getting home because many could simply move back to mum and dads whilst they settle back into Melbourne. I know the same could be said for any player going home but the vast majority will be Melbourne clubs.

Agree wholeheartedly that list management should be a skill and that a MST period like the mid season draft is simply overkill and completely unnecessary.

 

[McIvor]

There are kids who know they will be getting drafted and they tend to be more picky.

There are kids who not only know they are getting drafted but who will be welcome anywhere two years later and they tend to be the ones who let it be known (hopefully subtly) where they want to go and usually the rest of the comp either bows to the inevitable or is desperate enough If you were the reincarnation of GAJ, GAS, Lethal, Voss and Judd (yes I know very busy soul there!) and were picking not just your place of work but your life career trajectory ... would you really pick anywhere but a larger Melb team or Geelong? The travel alone would be enough of a factor unless you were a die hard Freo fan shudder and wanted to get them their maiden flag first. And as for post playing opportunities well ...

Tanner Bruhn at Geelong is the most recent example of a player that was always being drafted and absolutely made it known that he was displeased where he was drafted and only had one destination that he was definitely getting to after serving his mandatory two years.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Tanner Bruhn at Geelong is the most recent example of a player that was always being drafted and absolutely made it known that he was displeased where he was drafted and only had one destination that he was definitely getting to after serving his mandatory two years.

Will be interesting to see what happens now that AFL draft contracts have increased to 3 years for 1st round picks, as we might see more players locate their state preferences like Archie Perkins did, even though it is illegal in the AFL.

 

[BuntonRules]

Not really.

More respect to you.

Don't believe many AFL players would sacrifice family, even for a short term, for a shot at a championship.

Most of the players moving won't be on "big" money in an AFL sense.

You lost me there. That is what players play for.

IMO, if you had a vote of bottom 4 club players asking "would you leave home for 3 months to have a genuine shot at a flag '"the yes vote would win, handsomely.

 

[briztoon]

Will be interesting to see what happens now that AFL draft contracts have increased to 3 years for 1st round picks, as we might see more players locate their state preferences like Archie Perkins did, even though it is illegal in the AFL.

Harry Sheezel.
Bailey Smith.
Ben Hobbs (from post draft reports).
Rhett Bazzo (according to the WC board).

I’m sure there are others that recruiters could add to the list.

 

[McIvor]

Will be interesting to see what happens now that AFL draft contracts have increased to 3 years for 1st round picks, as we might see more players locate their state preferences like Archie Perkins did, even though it is illegal in the AFL.

Yet the gutless AFL like they did with the Brayshaw / Maynard hit do NOTHING about it; how bout growing a pair and making an example from time to time of players from big clubs or kids from the Melbourne heartland. The AFL ALWAYS target the easy targets be it a player from an interstate or in a draft example would do it to a kid anywhere but from Melbourne.

 

[Sproj]

What do you do about it if you are the AFL though? They’ve introduced 3 years but the go home card effectively is a mental health card, the AFL can’t make these kids stay at a place if they pull this card.

If they then say fine you can go home but not play for any other club for the duration of your contract, then they get sued for restraint of trade.

 

[Grasshopper17]

What do you do about it if you are the AFL though? They’ve introduced 3 years but the go home card effectively is a mental health card, the AFL can’t make these kids stay at a place if they pull this card.

If they then say fine you can go home but not play for any other club for the duration of your contract, then they get sued for restraint of trade.

Allow the club trading the player to negotiate with multiple clubs.

 

[cotter101]

The old restraint of trade line. Won’t stand up in court if they were to get sued.

More will be done to avoid draftees ‘nominating’ to stay in their home states over the next couple of years and also players already in the system, regardless of tenure nominating their club. Free agency the exception.

Clubs and recruiters are constantly providing this feedback to the AFL and it seems they will eventually get somewhere under Dillon.

 

[McIvor]

The old restraint of trade line. Won’t stand up in court if they were to get sued.

More will be done to avoid draftees ‘nominating’ to stay in their home states over the next couple of years and also players already in the system, regardless of tenure nominating their club. Free agency the exception.

Clubs and recruiters are constantly providing this feedback to the AFL and it seems they will eventually get somewhere under Dillon.

As I’ve always maintained the attitude of draftees only wanting to stay in there home state is always reserved for the entitled first round kids that have had people telling them how good they are all there lives. I’m certain that if Reece Torrent or Ryan Lester back when he was drafted said they were only staying in their home states that they’d have never been drafted. The sooner the AFL puts these self entitled princesses in there place the better or better yet they can just sit out AFL for three years until they’re ready to let go of Mummy’s apron strings.

 

[a mayes ing]

What happened to Cameron's brother, Jarrod? Was looking like an elite goal kicker but then stopped playing. Any chance he comes our way?

 

[Lace Out]

Eagles matched our bid.Who knows but could’ve stuck with it with us if they hadn’t.