List Mgmt. 2023 Trade & List Management discussion

Squizz89 · Apr 25, 2023

I know it’s far too early for this but I couldn’t find an appropriate thread to post it but Mods please move if not appropriate. This would be a bloody great get albeit unlikely.

Made the same connection with Dunkley having his sister here this time last year so we might’ve been a chance and that worked out ok. Who knows, it might happen again?

rye · Apr 25, 2023

not too interesting of a year coming up for us. i think the most important thing would be to lock away some of our players who are out of contract next year early.

Heres how i see us managing our out of contract players this year

Retire
Daniel Rich
Dayne Zorko
Marcus Adams

New Contract
Conor McKenna (3 years)
Darragh Joyce (2 years)
Cal Ah Chee (2 years)
Kai Lohmann (2 years)
Shadeau Brain (2 years)
Ryan Lester (1 year)

Request a trade
Rhys Mathieson
Deven Robertson

Delisted
Blake Coleman

Anyone's Guess
Harry Sharp
Nakia Cockatoo
James Madden
Carter Michael
Darryl McDowell-White jnr
Tom Fullarton

priority for this year simply must be signing conor mckenna on a 3-4 year deal.

M Malice · Apr 25, 2023

From the article >

While the Swans and Tigers appear to be at the front of the pack, the Brisbane Lions are also in the mix.

“Not discounting a little dark horse in Brisbane,” Cleary added.

McClure: “I haven’t heard them mentioned with Himmelberg.”

Cleary: “The family is up in Brisbane, they’ve moved around quite a bit.”
____________________________________________________

Well we don't need mids at the moment (Levi coming as well) so key position players via draft/trade/FA is the way to go, Harry as a RFA would be a great get.... 3 years with a 4th year trigger clause... would 650-700K per year be enough to entice him? + a possible flag or 2 of course.

rye · Apr 25, 2023

M Malice said:
From the article >

While the Swans and Tigers appear to be at the front of the pack, the Brisbane Lions are also in the mix.

“Not discounting a little dark horse in Brisbane,” Cleary added.

McClure: “I haven’t heard them mentioned with Himmelberg.”

Cleary: “The family is up in Brisbane, they’ve moved around quite a bit.”
____________________________________________________

Well we don't need mids at the moment (Levi coming as well) so key position players via draft/trade/FA is the way to go, Harry as a RFA would be a great get.... 3 years with a 4th year trigger clause... would 650-700K per year be enough to entice him? + a possible flag or 2 of course.

himmelberg would be interesting as a defender for us, but i think his preference is to play as a forward.

i actually expect him to sign on at gws anyway

M Malice · Apr 25, 2023

rye said:
not too interesting of a year coming up for us. i think the most important thing would be to lock away some of our players who are out of contract next year early.

Heres how i see us managing our out of contract players this year

Retire
Daniel Rich
Dayne Zorko
Marcus Adams

New Contract
Conor McKenna (3 years)
Darragh Joyce (2 years)
Cal Ah Chee (2 years)
Kai Lohmann (2 years)
Shadeau Brain (2 years)
Ryan Lester (1 year)

Request a trade
Rhys Mathieson
Deven Robertson

Delisted
Blake Coleman

Anyone's Guess
Harry Sharp
Nakia Cockatoo
James Madden
Carter Michael
Darryl McDowell-White jnr
Tom Fullarton

priority for this year simply must be signing conor mckenna on a 3-4 year deal.

Having a look at your list management decisions, I agree with most of it. On your anyone's guess list I would be keeping Madden, Michael, White Jnr and Fullarton. Sharp is a delist unless he has a really good reserves season, Cockatoo is an enigma, his best is great but is he fit enough to do it longer/consistently ... Matho vibes re him and endurance.

Dalions · Apr 25, 2023

rye said:
himmelberg would be interesting as a defender for us, but i think his preference is to play as a forward.

i actually expect him to sign on at gws anyway

The article says he is a forward but he would fit very nicely into our backline as the third banana with Harris and Payne.
His kicking out of our backline would be nice.
Although he would also be a nice replacement for Gunners in the forward line.

On the quiet · Apr 25, 2023

M Malice said:
From the article >

While the Swans and Tigers appear to be at the front of the pack, the Brisbane Lions are also in the mix.

“Not discounting a little dark horse in Brisbane,” Cleary added.

McClure: “I haven’t heard them mentioned with Himmelberg.”

Cleary: “The family is up in Brisbane, they’ve moved around quite a bit.”
____________________________________________________

Well we don't need mids at the moment (Levi coming as well) so key position players via draft/trade/FA is the way to go, Harry as a RFA would be a great get.... 3 years with a 4th year trigger clause... would 650-700K per year be enough to entice him? + a possible flag or 2 of course.

don't disagree Himmelberg would be a good get but who would he replace? The only person I can see is Gunston.
Hippy just signed a 7 year deal.
Joe is not going anywhere

Not sure if Himmelberg would want to play back permanently, but where does he fit in;
Gardiner just signed at least a 3 year deal.
Andrews not going anywhere and still has a few years on current contract
Payne is finally getting a chance and will be a v.good player in about 12 to 18 months, so versatile for the team playing on talls and mids.

FWIW unless he has a strong desire to come to QLD and the potential to win a flag I think he is worth more than $700k a season. I can see him being a good replacement for Riewoldt

rye · Apr 25, 2023

Dalions said:
The article says he is a forward but he would fit very nicely into our backline as the third banana with Harris and Payne.
His kicking out of our backline would be nice.
Although he would also be a nice replacement for Gunners in the forward line.

i watched him very closely last year for fantasy purposes when he played as a defender and hes almost a tom stewart level intercept defender

beautiful field kick as well

i expect he would be able to command more money as a key forward for a richmond type club though

Dalions · Apr 25, 2023

rye said:
i watched him very closely last year for fantasy purposes when he played as a defender and hes almost a tom stewart level intercept defender

beautiful field kick as well

i expect he would be able to command more money as a key forward for a richmond type club though

With Cotchin and Riewoldt likely to leave at the end of the year they may have money in the cap.
We must be reasonably tight with the cap you would have to think.

On the quiet · Apr 25, 2023

M Malice said:
Having a look at your list management decisions, I agree with most of it. On your anyone's guess list I would be keeping Madden, Michael, White Jnr and Fullarton. Sharp is a delist unless he has a really good reserves season, Cockatoo is an enigma, his best is great but is he fit enough to do it longer/consistently ... Matho vibes re him and endurance.

I probably think it is time to let Lester go and give Arnold a 1 year rookie contract. If Zorks keeps playing the way he is I believe he gets one more year. Rich probably retires flag or no flag.

IF we got Himmelberg (which i seriously doubt) then probably Fullarton spot on the list is questionable as Gunston still has 2024. Hopefully Tom gets a few games in AFL this year to demonstrate if he has improved at AFL level, because there is a big difference between good VFL form and AFL weekly standards.

Agree with McKenna deserving another contract, maybe three years

M Malice · Apr 25, 2023

On the quiet said:
I probably think it is time to let Lester go and give Arnold a 1 year rookie contract. If Zorks keeps playing the way he is I believe he gets one more year. Rich probably retires flag or no flag.

IF we got Himmelberg (which i seriously doubt) then probably Fullarton spot on the list is questionable as Gunston still has 2024. Hopefully Tom gets a few games in AFL this year to demonstrate if he has improved at AFL level, because there is a big difference between good VFL form and AFL weekly standards.

Agree with McKenna deserving another contract, maybe three years

Agree with all of that, didn't even think of Arnold, him in Lester out is a nobrainer.

Squizz89 · Apr 25, 2023

No reason he couldn’t play in the same backline with Harris, Payne & Gardiner/Joyce.

Rich will be gone next year so we would effectively replacing him with Himmelberg with respect to the kicking ability we will lose. Gardiner/Joyce can both play small on Rich’s usual opponent and let’s be honest we wouldn’t be losing any speed there anyway as they’d be just as “fast” as Rich albeit taller. Good luck getting through that backline with Harris and Himmelberg taking intercept marks for fun.

The bigger challenge would be convincing him to come to play permanent defence and the salary component of course.

twhowler · Apr 25, 2023

On the quiet said:
I probably think it is time to let Lester go and give Arnold a 1 year rookie contract. If Zorks keeps playing the way he is I believe he gets one more year. Rich probably retires flag or no flag.

IF we got Himmelberg (which i seriously doubt) then probably Fullarton spot on the list is questionable as Gunston still has 2024. Hopefully Tom gets a few games in AFL this year to demonstrate if he has improved at AFL level, because there is a big difference between good VFL form and AFL weekly standards.

Agree with McKenna deserving another contract, maybe three years

Fair call re Rich and Zorko. Injuries might do in Zorko as he is the sort of player that needs all of his zip.

Fullarton has to be a hold. For one he seems to be kicking a few goals, and does have some versatility. But our key forward stocks are thin re depth. And ageing.

Hipwood - only 25yo but more a flanker
Daniher - 29yo coming off bad shoulder injury
Gunston - 31yo and has slowed down
Fort - 29yo and while he should not have much wear and tear, is also more of a ruckman
Fullarton - 24yo
Henry Smith - 20yo but seemingly not close to a game and more of a ruckman

It makes the McStay for Gunston interesting because that has created a bit of an age profile cliff. List management is a multi-year approach though so we no doubt have a plan re draft / free agency for some key forwards to come in

briztoon · Apr 25, 2023

Unless we win it all this year, I can see Zorko going around again next year.

Levi doesn’t arrive until the 2025 season, and Lohmann probably isn’t ready next year to succeed Zorko on full time basis.

Morbidly_Obese · Apr 25, 2023

On the quiet said:
don't disagree Himmelberg would be a good get but who would he replace? The only person I can see is Gunston.
Hippy just signed a 7 year deal.
Joe is not going anywhere

Not sure if Himmelberg would want to play back permanently, but where does he fit in;
Gardiner just signed at least a 3 year deal.
Andrews not going anywhere and still has a few years on current contract
Payne is finally getting a chance and will be a v.good player in about 12 to 18 months, so versatile for the team playing on talls and mids.

FWIW unless he has a strong desire to come to QLD and the potential to win a flag I think he is worth more than $700k a season. I can see him being a good replacement for Riewoldt

I would play him on the wing, he's the perfect size and he's got a lovely kick.

McIvor · Apr 25, 2023

rye said:
not too interesting of a year coming up for us. i think the most important thing would be to lock away some of our players who are out of contract next year early.

Heres how i see us managing our out of contract players this year

Retire
Daniel Rich
Dayne Zorko
Marcus Adams

New Contract
Conor McKenna (3 years)
Darragh Joyce (2 years)
Cal Ah Chee (2 years)
Kai Lohmann (2 years)
Shadeau Brain (2 years)
Ryan Lester (1 year)

Request a trade
Rhys Mathieson
Deven Robertson

Delisted
Blake Coleman

Anyone's Guess
Harry Sharp
Nakia Cockatoo
James Madden
Carter Michael
Darryl McDowell-White jnr
Tom Fullarton

priority for this year simply must be signing conor mckenna on a 3-4 year deal.

This is my guess:

Retire
Rich (hope we get him a flag this year, he deserves it, but wouldn't be against him playing on if the body is holding up - I could see him wanting to get 300 though - 28 more to go so might be a big ask)
Adams (personally i think he should hang them up. Think I'd be pretty uncomfortable seeing the big man back out on an AFL field)
Lester - love Froggy but I think he's done and would love him to continue in the VFL program for his leadership. I also think Froggy is humble enough to know when to bow out

New Contract

Lohmann (hopefully he re-commits for a few more)
Ah Chee (hopefully we offer him a new deal, but wouldn't be surprised to see him head west and request a trade for the same reasons as Dev)
Zorko - another year for the little magician if he's body is withstanding everything and wouldnt be surprised if he retires with Rich if we get a flag
Fullarton - good depth. Another year or moved onto rookie list such is his good form in the 2's
Sharp - an extra one and likely moved onto the rookie list
McKenna - 2-3 year extension definitely
Brain - retained on rookie list with likely elevation in 2025
Michael - (same as Brain)
Joyce - one year extension on the rookie list
McDowell-White (same as Joyce)
Arnold - I seriously hope we elevate or recruit Arnold as a priority at seasons end

Delisted

Cockatoo (if he hasnt cemented a spot or plays minimum of 6 AFL games, I think he's card is marked)
B Coleman (I dont see anywhere near enough for him to think he makes it - VFL contract if he wants it)
Madden (same reasoning as Cockatoo)
Mathieson (same as Cockatoo and Madden and would love to see a Hawthorn or one of the bottom teams give him a year or two to help their fledging mids)

Traded
Robertson (I'd like him to stay, but he'll be guaranteed game time elsewhere, so expect him to leave)
Prior (contracted until end of 24) - wouldn't be surprised if sought a trade (west) like Robertson, but hope he stays and ideally hope he cements a spot on the seniors by seasons end)
Answerth (contracted until end of 24) wouldn't be surprised if sought a trade, but hope he stays on as he is good depth
Smith (contracted until end of 24) - same as Answerth
Lane (contracted until end of 24 - same as Smith and Answerth

M Malice · Apr 25, 2023

I can just see the Melbourne footy media going berserk if we were to snag Himmelberg on top of the elite ins we have managed over the last few years eg. Charlie Cameron, Josh Dunkley, Joe Daniher, Lachie Neale, Conor McKenna + bargain basement high return ins Jarryd Lyons, Lincoln McCarthy.

It would be sweet.

On the quiet · Apr 25, 2023

twhowler said:
Fair call re Rich and Zorko. Injuries might do in Zorko as he is the sort of player that needs all of his zip.

Fullarton has to be a hold. For one he seems to be kicking a few goals, and does have some versatility. But our key forward stocks are thin re depth. And ageing.

Hipwood - only 25yo but more a flanker
Daniher - 29yo coming off bad shoulder injury
Gunston - 31yo and has slowed down
Fort - 29yo and while he should not have much wear and tear, is also more of a ruckman
Fullarton - 24yo
Henry Smith - 20yo but seemingly not close to a game and more of a ruckman

It makes the McStay for Gunston interesting because that has created a bit of an age profile cliff. List management is a multi-year approach though so we no doubt have a plan re draft / free agency for some key forwards to come in

yes hopefully Tom gets a few games in the 1's at some point this year. However I do see him a little similar to Hippy and Joe where crashing the pack is not really their preferred option.

On the quiet · Apr 25, 2023

Morbidly_Obese said:
I would play him on the wing, he's the perfect size and he's got a lovely kick.

I have not watched him enough to say whether he has the tank to run up and down the ground for 4 Q's, and if he did play wing we are then likely paying a winger around $650 to $700K. I think we have a few options on the wing, including Wilmot who IMO will be a good player for us.

I think Harry would be a natural replacement for Riewoldt and a big Melbourne club will likely offer in excess of $700k pa. Maybe even a job for his partner (if he has one). I think Harry is a UFA, so probably even more attractive to some clubs. Would like to have him at the Lions but predominately playing forward.

Warwick · Apr 25, 2023

When we were linked to him last year I said Dunkley would be just about the first player we'd pick in the entire comp to fit a glaring hole in our list.

Himmelberg (outside of Weitering, Moore or Taylor) would be just about that pick this year IMO.

Tom14 · Apr 25, 2023

On the quiet said:
I have not watched him enough to say whether he has the tank to run up and down the ground for 4 Q's, and if he did play wing we are then likely paying a winger around $650 to $700K. I think we have a few options on the wing, including Wilmot who IMO will be a good player for us.

I think Harry would be a natural replacement for Riewoldt and a big Melbourne club will likely offer in excess of $700k pa. Maybe even a job for his partner (if he has one). I think Harry is a UFA, so probably even more attractive to some clubs. Would like to have him at the Lions but predominately playing forward.

Couldn't disagree more, he's exactly what we need to balance out our key defenders, and is athletic enough to play on medium types as well (so are Payne and Dizzy too), and he'd be our best ball user as a key defender as well.

I suspect he wants to play forward though.

martinson · Apr 25, 2023

Tom14 said:
Couldn't disagree more, he's exactly what we need to balance out our key defenders, and is athletic enough to play on medium types as well (so are Payne and Dizzy too), and he'd be our best ball user as a key defender as well.

I suspect he wants to play forward though.

We could use him either way but doubt we'll get in the hunt. If McStay could get 5@600 or so what's Himmelberg worth ? The other issue is that he's apparently very happy at GWS.

The whispers around Treloar being seriously considered are strong.

Not sure how we feel about that but Bevvo will have us top of his hate list.

knaf · Apr 25, 2023

Fullerton, Lane and Smith are an interesting group. We have put a fair bit of development into them.

Fullerton, in the VFL, is starting to show he he has the strength to hold his ground which I think was his most obvious weakness. Has skills - fairly good hands and very good below his knees for his size. Looks to be developing good game sense. Useful second ruck now in the VFL. Should be a definite hold as long as he doesn’t get a huge offer to go elsewhere ( unlikely)

Lane starting to look like a Charman clone. Showing more aggression in the ruck. (Finally) starting to take marks around the ground and getting involved at ground level. No finesse, so won’t be elite (in my opinion) but looks ideal to keep developing given the age of Oscar and Fort.

have not seen Smith this year.

I would like to keep Prior, Dev and Noah. I guess Prior would be my priority as he has the skill set and toughness we seem to be lacking. However Noah appears to be developing as a run and carry “ruck rover” type in the VFL. Again giving us a hard at it type in that role.

We should do anything short of selling BHA to get Himmelberg. would be an huge upgrade on Gunston. Gunston can spend his time in the VFL/coach Fullerton and Smith.

martinson · Apr 25, 2023

knaf said:
Fullerton, Lane and Smith are an interesting group. We have put a fair bit of development into them.

Fullerton, in the VFL, is starting to show he he has the strength to hold his ground which I think was his most obvious weakness. Has skills - fairly good hands and very good below his knees for his size. Looks to be developing good game sense. Useful second ruck now in the VFL. Should be a definite hold as long as he doesn’t get a huge offer to go elsewhere ( unlikely)

Lane starting to look like a Charman clone. Showing more aggression in the ruck. (Finally) starting to take marks around the ground and getting involved at ground level. No finesse, so won’t be elite (in my opinion) but looks ideal to keep developing given the age of Oscar and Fort.

have not seen Smith this year.

I would like to keep Prior, Dev and Noah. I guess Prior would be my priority as he has the skill set and toughness we seem to be lacking. However Noah appears to be developing as a run and carry “ruck rover” type in the VFL. Again giving us a hard at it type in that role.

We should do anything short of selling BHA to get Himmelberg. would be an huge upgrade on Gunston. Gunston can spend his time in the VFL/coach Fullerton and Smith.

I was on Tom's bandwagon for so long I'd sort of given up for this year. I haven't seen the last couple of VFL games and still waiting for him to add hardness and strength, awareness , just the usual footy smarts you need to be a regular player. Hopefully he's turned the corner.

You're right about Lane re his finesse but I've always liked him and there's some chance he could make it.

M Malice · Apr 25, 2023

From what I have seen of Kalin Lane his kicking is atrocious, IMO Henry Smith is the better long term ruck prospect.

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