Re-do the 2023 draft (Rolling edition)

[Dewyyyyy]

That's silly. Players are open to judgement as soon as they hit the big time. It's no different to the NBA where players are judged from the onset. Admittedly they are a couple of years older when drafted but players are judged BEFORE they're even drafted. There's been many players that have been booed on stage at the moment of getting drafted. I'm not saying this is right but athletes are rightly judged from the moment a club invests in them.

Yes but judging and criticising players is different to belittling, abuse and flat out saying they won’t or will make it. Shows a lack of knowledge and is the reason so many fans aren’t taken seriously.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Yes, it isn't professional, but it doesn't mean it's wrong. No idea how you don't call Jonathan O Rourke at pick 2 a bust. Or Tim Walsh at pick a bust? Mitch Thorp at pick 6 a bust? Lucas Cook at pick 12? David Trotter at pick 9? John Butcher at pick 8? You're getting hung up on semantics mate. They are and always will be draft busts, in every sense of the word.

Yes, injuries are a valid excuse but that's the only one. A players application is an important part of the recruiting process so if a player doesn't apply himself that's all on the club. You also can't blame development because guys like O'Rourke failed at multiple clubs.

Busts don’t exist. That’s my opinion and many would say so also, many reasons behind why players don’t make it, also many of reasons why they were picked where they were.

And they were examples.

 

[danster168]

Yes but judging and criticising players is different to belittling, abuse and flat out saying they won’t or will make it. Shows a lack of knowledge and is the reason so many fans aren’t taken seriously.

I haven't abused Watson. I've critiqued him. It's just that you didn't like the critiquing. But analysing a player in their first 10 games of exposure at afl level is 100% necessary.

 

[danster168]

Busts don’t exist. That’s my opinion and many would say so also, many reasons behind why players don’t make it, also many of reasons why they were picked where they were.

And they were examples.

So what was Jonathan O'Rourke then? Taken at pick 2. If not a bust, tell me what he was.

Yes, every early pick generally performed well at junior level, not transitioning that talent to senior level is what makes a player a bust. That's literally the art of recruiting, identifying which players will translate.

My club took Jimmy Toumpas with pick 4. That my friend, was a complete bust. Failed at Melbourne. Failed at Port.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I haven't abused Watson. I've critiqued him. It's just that you didn't like the critiquing. But analysing a player in their first 10 games of exposure at afl level is 100% necessary.

Not necessary because players develop at different rates. Players can be ready from the get go and not develop further, players can be good from the first day and become even better, some take time, some take years. It is not linear. The fact is you’re saying because he missed a couple easy goals it makes him a lesser player. He’s playing in a bottom side currently, in one of the hardest roles as a small forward. Pressure has been good, has shown great talent, and is getting shots on goal that many don’t. Getting opportunities is half of the problem, he’s getting them and will eventually take them. Not an IF but a WHEN.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

So what was Jonathan O'Rourke then? Taken at pick 2. If not a bust, tell me what he was.

Yes, every early pick generally performed well at junior level, not transitioning that talent to senior level is what makes a player a bust. That's literally the art of recruiting, identifying which players will translate.

My club took Jimmy Toumpas with pick 4 I believe it was. That my friend, was a complete bust. Failed at Melbourne. Failed at Port.

Recruiting is identifying talent. What strengths, weaknesses, ceilings, floors, development time, production so far, many factors and guesses are made after mountains of work done to identify talent.

Bust just isn’t a word used and if I wanted to I could describe why he didn’t make it as you could for many AFL or ex AFL players. Being simple minded and shouting bust is irrelevant.

 

[danster168]

Not necessary because players develop at different rates. Players can be ready from the get go and not develop further, players can be good from the first day and become even better, some take time, some take years. It is not linear. The fact is you’re saying because he missed a couple easy goals it makes him a lesser player. He’s playing in a bottom side currently, in one of the hardest roles as a small forward. Pressure has been good, has shown great talent, and is getting shots on goal that many don’t. Getting opportunities is half of the problem, he’s getting them and will eventually take them. Not an IF but a WHEN.

I agree that players develop at different rates. But you can't say that you can't judge players. In his first 9 games last year, Sheezel was North Melbournes best player and was racking up 30 touches a game and getting Brownlow votes. So you're saying we can't critique his amazing start? Or is it just poor performing players that we can't critique?

p.s. I never said Watson would be a bad player. in fact, I'm sure he will become a decent afl player.

 

[danster168]

Recruiting is identifying talent. What strengths, weaknesses, ceilings, floors, development time, production so far, many factors and guesses are made after mountains of work done to identify talent.

Bust just isn’t a word used and if I wanted to I could describe why he didn’t make it as you could for many AFL or ex AFL players. Being simple minded and shouting bust is irrelevant.

So tell me what O Rourke and Toumpas were as top 5 picks, and tell me why they weren't busts? bust is a word used all of the time. Obviously not by people in the industry as it's not a nice term but doesn't mean it's wrong.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/de...w/news-story/8e9f38d99473e9454de52f7b1e652a60

I could find 1000 other sites and sources that use the term busts. You're just getting hung up on semantics of a word.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I agree that players develop at different rates. But you can't say that you can't judge players. In his first 9 games last year, Sheezel was North Melbournes best player and was racking up 30 touches a game and getting Brownlow votes. So you're saying we can't critique his amazing start? Or is it just poor performing players that we can't critique?

p.s. I never said Watson would be a bad player. in fact, I'm sure he will become a decent afl player.

Watson has shown enough to suggest he could very well become an elite small forward. That’s an opinion I have, I can describe which attributes aswell etc.

It isn’t just about the result, which is all of what fans look at, looking and analysis of performance is important but you can’t make 100% lock in decisions off little sample sizes.

If you look at any coach for any sport. They’ll look at the process leading to the result. For footy it’ll be running patterns, to get the ball, it’ll be how they win the ball, how they use it, where they get it. Tinkering these to suit the player, and their role. There’s a lot more than just that. But it’s the process to the result not the result. So looking purely at performance and not talent or ability etc, your picture will paint incorrect often.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

So tell me what O Rourke and Toumpas were as top 5 picks, and tell me why they weren't busts? bust is a word used all of the time. Obviously not by people in the industry as it's not a nice term but doesn't mean it's wrong.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/de...w/news-story/8e9f38d99473e9454de52f7b1e652a60

I could find 1000 other sites and sources that use the term busts. You're just getting hung up on semantics of a word.

Bust is a word used by journalists and fans. You will likely never hear a recruiter or coach say such things. It’s a throwaway comment.

There’s background behind it and that’s what’s important not a throwaway comment.

 

[danster168]

Watson has shown enough to suggest he could very well become an elite small forward. That’s an opinion I have, I can describe which attributes aswell etc.

It isn’t just about the result, which is all of what fans look at, looking and analysis of performance is important but you can’t make 100% lock in decisions off little sample sizes.

If you look at any coach for any sport. They’ll look at the process leading to the result. For footy it’ll be running patterns, to get the ball, it’ll be how they win the ball, how they use it, where they get it. Tinkering these to suit the player, and their role. There’s a lot more than just that. But it’s the process to the result not the result. So looking purely at performance and not talent or ability etc, your picture will paint incorrect often.

That's fine. But now you're judging Watson based off his first 9 games...

 

[danster168]

Bust is a word used by journalists and fans. You will likely never hear a recruiter or coach say such things. It’s a throwaway comment.

There’s background behind it and that’s what’s important not a throwaway comment.

of course you wouldn't hear a recruiter or coach say that. lol. Because coaches and recruiters are gagged by the PC rules of the afl. It's like when an afl game has been horrendously umpired, do the coaches ever say 'the umpires were sh#t'? No of course not.

Behind closed doors or when asked privately, of course they would acknowledge that Toumpas and O Rourke and hundreds of others were busts. It's strange that you're hung up on the word.
You still haven't told me your breakdown of O Rourke and Toumpas as to why they weren't busts.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

That's fine. But now you're judging Watson based off his first 9 games...

The difference is analysis and criticism. But also your baseless claims. Whilst looking at the result of “missing easy shots”. Process, talent, ability > result (especially early on). Production is important and result is important but is irrelevant without the process to get to that position. A role player can play a good game garnering 30 disposals, kicking a couple goals. But go back to being average after because their process, talent and ability isn’t good enough. Comparing that to a highly talented player who has the same games it is more often than not creating more excitement and is the vocal point. For example, someone like Tom Mitchell just isn’t going to be quick and has physical limitations. This is why it’s important to identify and talent dive to evaluate.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

of course you wouldn't hear a recruiter or coach say that. lol. Because coaches and recruiters are gagged by the PC rules of the afl. It's like when an afl game has been horrendously umpired, do the coaches ever say 'the umpires were sh#t'? No of course not.

Behind closed doors or when asked privately, of course they would acknowledge that Toumpas and O Rourke and hundreds of others were busts. It's strange that you're hung up on the word.
You still haven't told me your breakdown of O Rourke and Toumpas as to why they weren't busts.

No because they’ve got an idea unlike an afl fan or journo (sometimes) throwing it out without base or knowledge.
Sometimes the AFL coaches bring it up and asks for please explains. FYI.

They wouldn’t say bust because of the fact there’s so many reasons behind it. And no I could but I won’t, every single afl player who didn’t make it had reasons. Talent, application, injuries, clubs development, there’s so many it’s hard to name them all.

 

[theiaofseed]

Answer this, do you think Darcy Wilson goes at pick 18 if the draft was done tomorrow?

On current form no but you don't throw away years of judging a talent based off 9 games. Where would Calsher dear go if the draft was done tomorrow? Clearly the second best performing KP from the draft and arguments to be made for number one spot.

 

[danster168]

No because they’ve got an idea unlike an afl fan or journo (sometimes) throwing it out without base or knowledge.
Sometimes the AFL coaches bring it up and asks for please explains. FYI.

They wouldn’t say bust because of the fact there’s so many reasons behind it. And no I could but I won’t, every single afl player who didn’t make it had reasons. Talent, application, injuries, clubs development, there’s so many it’s hard to name them all.

You're not making any sense. So I can tell you 10 reasons why Cale Morton was a bust. He was physically weak, he was uncompetitive. Toumpas was a bust because he was also slow, and lacked competitiveness and he was also found without a position at afl level. All of these reasons are why they are busts.


Your logic is Jonathan O'Rourke and Toumpas weren't busts because there's many reasons why they didn't make it? Yes, that's correct. Those reasons are exactly why they were busts.

 

[danster168]

On current form no but you don't throw away years of judging a talent based off 9 games. Where would Calsher dear go if the draft was done tomorrow? Clearly the second best performing KP from the draft and arguments to be made for number one spot.

but they are the most relevant 9 games of their career. Also, recruiters really only invest their resources into a player when it's their draft years. unless they are a father son or academy pick.

Calsher Dear would still go at the same spot as he was a father son pick but he would've been bid on 20 spots earlier I think .

 

[Dewyyyyy]

You're not making any sense. So I can tell you 10 reasons why Cale Morton was a bust. He was physically weak, he was uncompetitive. Toumpas was a bust because he was also slow, and lacked competitiveness and he was also found without a position at afl level. All of these reasons are why they are busts.


Your logic is Jonathan O'Rourke and Toumpas weren't busts because there's many reasons why they didn't make it? Yes, that's correct. Those reasons are exactly why they were busts.

Point is saying someone is a bust is a throwaway term. It’s lazy. Often baseless.

 

[danster168]

Point is saying someone is a bust is a throwaway term. It’s lazy. Often baseless.

It's an efficient way. We're not going to break down all the reasons why busts are busts. I can give you all the reasons why Matthew Bate, Strauss, Toumpas, Morton, Jack Watts etc. were busts. But there's no need unless anyone asks. Everyone accepts that players like O'Rourke, Mitch Thorp, Grainger-Barrass are busts.

Also, how is it baseless. It's literally the opposite of baseless. Maybe 10 years in the system and never becoming a good player or 5 years and not getting a new contract is the reason why they are busts. Regardless, busts usually don't make it to 100 games which is a fail for an early pick.

 

[Bald]

Where's Ryley Sanders?

I kinda feel like you just started this because Caleb Windsor is playing well.

This is the Danster style though.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

This is the Danster style though.

Wait til Tholstrup has a good game

Top 5

 

[danster168]

This is the Danster style though.

Quite the opposite. I'm harsher on melbourne players than the majority of dees fans. I for one don't rate Windsors foot skills. I think they're a weakness.

 

[danster168]

Wait til Tholstrup has a good game

Top 5

Fits a false narrative. If you knew how I'd post, I'm far too critical of dees players. Nice try though

 

[bindas12]

I think the term bust is a good one to use but it’s probably 70% about development environment a club has and 30% on the type of player selected. This is why Geelong has less “busts” than other clubs

 

[Dewyyyyy]

It's an efficient way. We're not going to break down all the reasons why busts are busts. I can give you all the reasons why Matthew Bate, Strauss, Toumpas, Morton, Jack Watts etc. were busts. But there's no need unless anyone asks. Everyone accepts that players like O'Rourke, Mitch Thorp, Grainger-Barrass are busts.

Also, how is it baseless. It's literally the opposite of baseless. Maybe 10 years in the system and never becoming a good player or 5 years and not getting a new contract is the reason why they are busts. Regardless, busts usually don't make it to 100 games which is a fail for an early pick.

You listing DGB is quite interesting, I’d like to hear why you believe he’s a “bust”. But again it’s my opinion it is a poor term and is baseless a lot of the time with casual fans.