The Age: Pies to trade pick 25 for Marty Clarke + Jamie Elliot

[royals1922]

We traded for these players because we are close to a flag. If it means having a weaker list in five years time then so be it. I'd rather take the chance of trading to help win a flag, than to forever be a mid range team.

And it worked for us so whats the issue? We traded for Jolly, and i doubt we would have won a flag if we didn't. We traded for Krak, and we made a GF last year.

I know the line of thinking espoused- that is one or two flags now and 6 or 7 years of pain but you at least have the flag. But the risk is that one bad year with injuries and the strategy gets exposed as that next layer of player is not there. Draft picks are the life blood of a club but those who give them away risk, to continue the cliche, becoming anaemic when there is blood loss.

 

[royals1922]

Yeah, because Mumford and Laidler are horrible players that shouldn't even be in the AFL!

Prismall was 22 when he was traded as well, and most rated him as a fairly good player at the time.

Geelong have brought in some good kids too though, not denying that. But just pulling you up n the fact that Geelong did lose a few young promising players due to salary cap/opportunity issues.

From recollection Prismall and Laidler left not because of the salary cap but because they weren't getting games.

For Prismall, the Cats got pick 39 which they used on Steven Motlop.

Laidler and Mumford are interesting - both were rookie elevations who Geelong later on traded and for Mumford, Geelong got pick 28 which they used on ...... Mitch Duncan - premiership player.

Geelong very rarely go for top up players.

 

[royals1922]

We won a flag in 2010 and one of our most important players that year was Jolly.

If that is your idea of a disaster.... wow, just wow

The issue is that Collingwood have traded away their first pick far too often.

Now if you want to look at the Jolly trade, they gave up pick 14 (used by Sydney to get Lewis Jetta) and pick 46 ( used by Hawthorn to get Ben Stratton).

Cameron Wood traded for pick 14 which Melbourne used on... Jack Grimes.

Collingwood were much smarter in 06 when they gave up Chris Tarrant for pick 8 ( which they used to get Ben Reid) and Paul Medhurst efefctively giving up an established player to get an early draft pick.

 

[robertg22]

Do you think Jetta & Stratton would have won us the 2010 flag?

 

[royals1922]

Do you think Jetta & Stratton would have won us the 2010 flag?

I am not saying the Jolly trade wasn't a good one but pointing out that with those picks Collingwood may also have got 100 plus game players.

I also am big wraps on Stratton so he might have helped collingwood immediately.

But again we get to this one point- one such trade is okay but once you go to the same well too many times, there is a chance it will blow back on you.

 

[robertg22]

Stratton wouldn't have broken into our team in 2010 with Presti, Brown & Reid all clearly ahead of him. Regardless every single team passed up on him in the draft. He wasn't exactly blue chip under 18 talent either, he came through as a mature ager from the WAFL. It sounds like you're writing off Clarke, Elliott, Ceglar etc from being 100 game players? I know we're easy targets at the moment with all the crap that's happened in the last week but you need to calm down a bit.

 

[royals1922]

Stratton wouldn't have broken into our team in 2010 with Presti, Brown & Reid all clearly ahead of him. Regardless every single team passed up on him in the draft. He wasn't exactly blue chip under 18 talent either, he came through as a mature ager from the WAFL. It sounds like you're writing off Clarke, Elliott, Ceglar etc from being 100 game players? I know we're easy targets at the moment with all the crap that's happened in the last week but you need to calm down a bit.

You are forgetting that stratton, Jetta, Duncan etc are now first team players.

The odds say that one of Ceglar or Elliott will make it but the odds are also one will not.

Clarke is separate to both of the above.

And remember I said this at the the time of the draft when there were no injuries and all looked good so it is not a hindsight view.

It's simply a question of drafting philosophy and there's been a philosophy in place to trade away the first round picks which I do not agree with.

 

[La Dispute]

Pies lose a few games and their list is already being overanalysed and dissected.

 

[bombermick]

Jolly and Ball got them a flag, and they weren't far away getting one with Krak, too. The Hawks and Saints have also topped up, and the Hawks are still a chance to nab one.

If it puts you in a position to win a flag, then it's easily worth the pain that follows. It's when you go for recycled hacks - or overestimate where your list is at (looking at you Vossy)that you end up in a hole.

 

[HFF]

Pies lose a few games and their list is already being overanalysed and dissected.

Jolly and Ball got them a flag, and they weren't far away getting one with Krak, too. The Hawks and Saints have also topped up, and the Hawks are still a chance to nab one.

If it puts you in a position to win a flag, then it's easily worth the pain that follows. It's when you go for recycled hacks - or overestimate where your list is at (looking at you Vossy)that you end up in a hole.

Spot on with both posts.

 

[yaco55]

We traded pick 47 to get Yagmoor so no big deal there. At the same point in time in the 2010 draft we got Fasolo with pick 45 who's going to be a gun, Paul Seedsman with pick 76 who we do rate highly so you do take the good with the bad.

My mistake about Yagmoor.

Collingwood usually does well with mid to late draft picks - Would be nice to see who have Hine could have picked with pick 25 in the 2011 ND.

 

[yaco55]

Royals has provided a philospophical argument ( in which i agree ).

He is discussing giving up three consecutive first round draft selections - Collingwood supporters have eloquently argued the merits of the first two years - but fail to discuss the third year.

 

[Ron]

Royals has provided a philospophical argument ( in which i agree ).

He is discussing giving up three consecutive first round draft selections - Collingwood supporters have eloquently argued the merits of the first two years - but fail to discuss the third year.

It's a bit early to say if last year was a bust or not don't you think? There have only been 3 rounds of football since that trade was made.

 

[robertg22]

Royals has provided a philospophical argument ( in which i agree ).

He is discussing giving up three consecutive first round draft selections - Collingwood supporters have eloquently argued the merits of the first two years - but fail to discuss the third year.

Marty Clarke has been one of our better players over the last couple of weeks and Jamie Elliott has had injuries but played a NAB game and looked OK (and fills a need in a position for us), so I guess it's OK?

 

[tonkapies]

I know the line of thinking espoused- that is one or two flags now and 6 or 7 years of pain but you at least have the flag. But the risk is that one bad year with injuries and the strategy gets exposed as that next layer of player is not there. Draft picks are the life blood of a club but those who give them away risk, to continue the cliche, becoming anaemic when there is blood loss.

Doctor royall Your talking about the pies not north. The pies catch a cold it doesnt take ten years to come back, spoon 1999 gf 2002 2003 spoon 2005 finals 2006 to current flag 2010 gf 2011 . Just in case a poor 2012 and cloke off to GWS that will be 3 first round picks plus father son J Stewart whos a top 10 anyway plus a team of stars already where is the pain your talking about, pies not going anywhere infact the window will stay wide open looking at how the new teams are going about there business. anyway how about throwing a pick 3 hows Hansen going.... have look in your own rubbish bin.

 

[Slattery_20]

It's simply a question of drafting philosophy and there's been a philosophy in place to trade away the first round picks which I do not agree with.

And the answer to that question?
THERE'S A NEW FLAG HANGING ON THE WALL.
The end.




Don't be so naive as to assume they didn't know exactly what they were getting themselves into. Stronger in the now, slightly weaker list in the long run.

Ridiculous bigfooty logic says they should build a stronger list of names with higher draft picks attached to them and doing anything else is heresy.
Real world logic says football clubs are actually there to win flags - which they did.

 

[robertg22]

Additionally we've been able to add kids onto the list through the NSW rookie scheme (Witts, Young) and a couple of young Irishmen (Mooney, Cribbin) so it's not as if we've just relied on the national draft as our only source of talent.

If we're talking about recycling players and topping up, you just need to look at the masters of it in Sydney, they've been doing it for years and have only missed the finals like once in the last 10 years haven't they? Hardly a disaster there.

 

[royals1922]

And the answer to that question?
THERE'S A NEW FLAG HANGING ON THE WALL.
The end.




.

Accepted but Geelong have 3, have rarely traded and have used all of their draft picks.

A question of philosophy really - top up or draft and develop.

 

[Slattery_20]

There's a lot of clubs who don't measure up to Geelong over this recent spell.
Roughly 17.

Pies weren't in Geelong's list position, so why would they make the same decisions???


And I still don't get what's "philosophical" about it. You'll have to explain that one.
They haven't foregone youth, they've decided it wasn't the #1 priority for a short while. It looks like a business decision to me - a business might decide their immediate future is in a specific niche and put resources into that (ie, guys who would be at their peak for 2010-2012), at the expense of other areas (guys who will peak 2012 onwards).

Regardless of whether they were 1st round picks or slightly later, I really doubt we would've seen their kids get a lot of games, so I doubt the development has taken much of a hit.

I really do think you're just using wank-words, to make your ridiculous position sound smarter than it actually is.

 

[Caj]

Wood - Nothing wrong with trading for a young ruckman that they desparately needed at the time, just unfortunate the highly rated junior in Wood has not up to the task

2010 Jolly - Played a huge part in the 2010 flag - enough said

2011 Krakouer - Had a go at back to back flags, they thought Krak could help. Didn't really come off IMO but nothing wrong with the strategy

2012 Clarke - Think they overpaid this time, not sure that he is the type of player to get them over the top of other contenders. Having said that its too early too tell what they missed out on in the draft

Looking forward I think this tactic will probably catch up with them, but they rolled the dice in 2010 and won so its hard to argue that it was the wrong way to go.

Edit: I haven't incorporated the steakknives as they are all mid to low tier draft picks at best and probably would have been available with Collingwoods later picks anyway

 

[robertg22]

Krak kicked 35 goals last year and we were a quarter and a half away from winning the grand final, I fail to see how it didn't work.

 

[The Finger]

Krak kicked 35 goals last year and we were a quarter and a half away from winning the grand final, I fail to see how it didn't work.

Jack Darling would be handy right now dont you think.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Jack Darling would be handy right now dont you think.

Not as handy as a ruckman. Ceglar is the long term investment we chose to make.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

My mistake about Yagmoor.

Collingwood usually does well with mid to late draft picks - Would be nice to see who have Hine could have picked with pick 25 in the 2011 ND.

Jamie Elliott?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Edit: I haven't incorporated the steakknives as they are all mid to low tier draft picks at best and probably would have been available with Collingwoods later picks anyway

Unless you are an expert in these matters you have no clue of the value of the steakknives. Maybe Krak and Clarke are the steakknives?

The bottom line is that Collingwood in the last two years has traded away a middling pick (25 is not a traditional first rounder) for four players.....one of them a veteran who kicked 3 goals in a GF and then did a knee...the other a promising 24 year Irishman returning to the fold, and the two others being kids that people know nothing about

If we had picked up Krakouer and Clarke for free with our last picks and used our first round picks on Ceglar and Elliot, nobody would be talking about this....but the list woudl look exactly the same. The success of this will depend on how Ceglar and Elliot develop. The success of any draft pick depends on how the player drafted develops.