Who has the better list?

[hellfire]

Oh yes, who could forget about Collingwood's amazingly talented kids that were just too good to trade for Judd.

I'm suprised it took this long for Carlton supporter to bring Judd into the thread.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

this can only really be a subjective question, and it's all about perception.

You simply can't disagree with the perception that Collingwood has a better list; I personally think that perception may change this year, but I accept my inherent bias

 

[MarkT]

a crap cheap shot from a normally balanced poster Guess you're no different to anyone here.

Nor you it seems. Get a sense of humour man!

If one team finished just outside the bottom four, and the other finished in a preliminary final, you'd have to have rocks in your head to suggest that the lower team has a better list.

So I'll concede that point to Collingwood right now, but I don't think there's much in it, personally. Essendon's pre-seeason this year has been very promising, whilst Collingwood's has been dismal. I remember not winning a game pre-season - it was the lead in to the 06 season, and we all know how that panned out (though I'm not suggesting Collingwood will fall that far!).

To the mutants who think Essendon have no talent after Lloyd Lucas Fletcher and Michael, I am really going to enjoy watching you eat your words over the next few years

If you do want to be serious about then the answer, in all seriousness, is the Collingwood’s list is MUCH better. The results prove it and the promise of the younger players that produced last year and in finals seals it for some time to come.

To claim Essendon have a better list long term is about as off tap as you can get. Sure they have a few promising kids as does every single list. Collingwood have more and better. What do I base this on? Take a look at the top 10 in the B&F in a side that narrowly lost to Geelong in the PF. Take a look at who showed up to play in the finals. A young CHF was our best and a young classy mid, who incidentally was runner up to he CHF in the B&F was also at the forefront. Then there was the Irishman who’s played 12 months of footy and half of it below AFL level.

Collingwood have had one decent pre season under Malthouse and I don’t know if WCE under Malthouse had any. The one Collingwood did have was a fluke. We won a few Wizard Cup games against ordinary sides playing 1 ¼ quarters of footy and got belted in the GF by a professional Adelaide. You cannot read anything to a MM side’s pre season at all. Meanwhile Carlton have had two better pre seasons than Essendon have had this year and taken priority picks after the real stuff was done and dusted.

There is a gulf between Collingwood and Essendon that will widen as players retire from Essendon. Pies will lose Burns and that will hurt.

 

[Ari]

Is Nash going to play KP? Thought he was a mid.

Yeah well spotted, is more of a HB flanker. Not a true KPP but can hold a spot, not a true mid either.

 

[Ari]

Prospects being the key word here. Other than Ryder the others havent exactly shown that they'll make it (yet).

Well, I think more have shown then just Ryder but I did list prospects only. Perhaps half will make it.

What about midfielders coming through? Any luck there?

Surprisingly, this is one place we actually have some activity! A lot of a good young mids coming through to replace our shocking current midfield. All kids, so still a few years away... but a lot of promise in this area..... finally!

Bottom line: Collngwood has a better list than Essendon. No?

Yes. Agreed. I've already mentioned a couple times that Collingwood has a better list than Essendon. That is NOT what I replied to above though. I replied, above, to you saying Essendon is gawn when Lloyd, Lucas, Fletch and Michael retire.

 

[Captain_Knowall]

Personally i think comparing lists is a fruitless exercise... A champion team will always beat a team of champions. This time last year i don't think anyone would have said Geelong had the best list in the comp, it was the same list that didn't make the finals the previous year...

Collingwood are a considerably better team than Essendon regardless of who has the better list.

 

[cat_fanatic]

The clubs to really reign over the next few years as far as their lists go will be collingwood,hawthorn,essendon,west coast,brisbane,carlton (providing they get some decent backmen).

Dont you rate Geelongs youth?

 

[SirJimi05]

Prospects being the key word here. Other than Ryder the others havent exactly shown that they'll make it (yet).

What about midfielders coming through? Any luck there?
Bottom line: Collngwood has a better list than Essendon. No?

Stanton, Watson, Houli, Dempsey, Monfries, Riemers, Hislop, Jetta, Davey, Nash, Myers, Dyson, Hocking, Lonergan, Magin, Winderlich.

I would say that we pretty much have the next generation of MF prospects covered nicely.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Nor you it seems. Get a sense of humour man!

yeh that was a cracker of a joke. Do you do Yo' Momma jokes too?

If you do want to be serious about then the answer, in all seriousness, is the Collingwood’s list is MUCH better. The results prove it and the promise of the younger players that produced last year and in finals seals it for some time to come.

To claim Essendon have a better list long term is about as off tap as you can get. Sure they have a few promising kids as does every single list. Collingwood have more and better. What do I base this on? Take a look at the top 10 in the B&F in a side that narrowly lost to Geelong in the PF. Take a look at who showed up to play in the finals. A young CHF was our best and a young classy mid, who incidentally was runner up to he CHF in the B&F was also at the forefront. Then there was the Irishman who’s played 12 months of footy and half of it below AFL level.

Collingwood have had one decent pre season under Malthouse and I don’t know if WCE under Malthouse had any. The one Collingwood did have was a fluke. We won a few Wizard Cup games against ordinary sides playing 1 ¼ quarters of footy and got belted in the GF by a professional Adelaide. You cannot read anything to a MM side’s pre season at all. Meanwhile Carlton have had two better pre seasons than Essendon have had this year and taken priority picks after the real stuff was done and dusted.

There is a gulf between Collingwood and Essendon that will widen as players retire from Essendon. Pies will lose Burns and that will hurt.

gulf? Please. Teams can play above themselves, and Collingwood may have done that last year.

I concede that Collingwood should be perceived as having a better list right now. No doubts.

Let's revisit after Season 08 though

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Nor you it seems. Get a sense of humour man!
If you do want to be serious about then the answer, in all seriousness, is the Collingwood’s list is MUCH better. The results prove it and the promise of the younger players that produced last year and in finals seals it for some time to come.

To claim Essendon have a better list long term is about as off tap as you can get. Sure they have a few promising kids as does every single list. Collingwood have more and better. What do I base this on? Take a look at the top 10 in the B&F in a side that narrowly lost to Geelong in the PF. Take a look at who showed up to play in the finals. A young CHF was our best and a young classy mid, who incidentally was runner up to he CHF in the B&F was also at the forefront. Then there was the Irishman who’s played 12 months of footy and half of it below AFL level.

Collingwood have had one decent pre season under Malthouse and I don’t know if WCE under Malthouse had any. The one Collingwood did have was a fluke. We won a few Wizard Cup games against ordinary sides playing 1 ¼ quarters of footy and got belted in the GF by a professional Adelaide. You cannot read anything to a MM side’s pre season at all. Meanwhile Carlton have had two better pre seasons than Essendon have had this year and taken priority picks after the real stuff was done and dusted.

There is a gulf between Collingwood and Essendon that will widen as players retire from Essendon. Pies will lose Burns and that will hurt.

At the moment, there is no real comparison as collingwood have the runs on the board, but is that gulf exaggerated, me thinks yes. Why? Becasue we have not had a decent coach for around 4 years now. No gameplan, no work ethic, and a complete and utter reluctance to play our younger brigade.

This is changing and this season will tell us a lot more. If we become as disciplined as a team like Gollingwood, there will be a stark difference in Essendons performance and the way they will be perceived. I still think we will miss the 8, but if we gel, then we are a real chance as is every club (bar Richmond and Carlton who will implode at some stage this season).

And is Collingwood being talked up more because of a few good finals games or because they were a really good footy team all season?

 

[hellfire]

yeh that was a cracker of a joke. Do you do Yo' Momma jokes too?



gulf? Please. Teams can play above themselves, and Collingwood may have done that last year.

I concede that Collingwood should be perceived as having a better list right now. No doubts.

Let's revisit after Season 08 though

Teams can't play above themselves. They wouldn't be able to play that well if it were above them.

 

[MarkT]

yeh that was a cracker of a joke. Do you do Yo' Momma jokes too?

No but make sure you try the veal.

gulf? Please. Teams can play above themselves, and Collingwood may have done that last year.

Given they finished in about the same position after the H&A which was a fraction outside the top 4 it is hard to argue they played above themselves in the H&A season. You may want to argue the step up in the finals was above their level but I’d argue the young CHF and midfielder stepped up because they are quality players and regardless they played like they have in 90% of the finals they have played under Malthouse.

Add to this Didak was off a knee injury and Fraser was a wreck and only played 1 final. There is a fair bit of upside t cover the downside of losing Buckley and Clement who had minimal impact anyway.

There really isn’t one scrap of evidence to suggest Collingwood played above themselves to any meaningful extent.

Let's revisit after Season 08 though

Sure – and a for a few years thereafter too. Bombers drafted poorly in the last 5 years. Pies drafted well in the last 3 and poorly the two prior. Clarke is a bonus outside the draft. I could go on but really I was just making a semi poignant comment with a tongue half in my cheek and half not.

 

[SirJimi05]

No but make sure you try the veal. Given they finished in about the same position after the H&A which was a fraction outside the top 4 it is hard to argue they played above themselves in the H&A season. You may want to argue the step up in the finals was above their level but I’d argue the young CHF and midfielder stepped up because they are quality players and regardless they played like they have in 90% of the finals they have played under Malthouse.

Add to this Didak was off a knee injury and Fraser was a wreck and only played 1 final. There is a fair bit of upside t cover the downside of losing Buckley and Clement who had minimal impact anyway.

There really isn’t one scrap of evidence to suggest Collingwood played above themselves to any meaningful extent. Sure – and a for a few years thereafter too. Bombers drafted poorly in the last 5 years. Pies drafted well in the last 3 and poorly the two prior. Clarke is a bonus outside the draft. I could go on but really I was just making a semi poignant comment with a tongue half in my cheek and half not.

Says who? What an ill informed comment that is.

 

[MarkT]

Says who? What an ill informed comment that is.

Well says me, obviously, who is making a subjective judgement on list quality.

I take it you think Essendon have drafted well over he last 5 years yet still were rubbish last season and rely heavily on a handful if senior players and have for some time? Do you base this largely on the NAB Cup? Maybe the stellar results of Bendigo?

 

[Ari]

Says who? What an ill informed comment that is.

Agreed.

Essendon have drafted BRILLIANTLY in the last couple years absolutely raping the 06 superdraft, poorly the handfull of years before that. True, however, that Essendon finished high on the ladder and as such didn't have the pick of the bunch... but add to that Sheedy took some silly kids as projects.

 

[Ari]

Well says me, obviously, who is making a subjective judgement on list quality.

Essendons 06 draft which you believe was poor?

Scott Gumbleton
Leroy Jetta
Alwyn Davey
Bachar Houli
Kyle Reimers
Mal Michael

 

[Jono B]

Post 2002 our drafting has at least been decent. Our youth is not our problem. The problem is the gap we have between our promising youth and our old stars.

 

[SirJimi05]

Well says me, obviously, who is making a subjective judgement on list quality.

I take it you think Essendon have drafted well over he last 5 years yet still were rubbish last season and rely heavily on a handful if senior players and have for some time? Do you base this largely on the NAB Cup? Maybe the stellar results of Bendigo?

Essedon has drafted as well if not better than any club over the last two years. If you think we have drafted poorly in those years you have no idea. If you had of said it is too early to judge that would have made sense but you made a point of stating the the Pies have drafted well in the last 3 years so you obviously believe it is not too early to speculate on such things.

 

[Ari]

Post 2002 our drafting has at least been decent. Our youth is not our problem. The problem is the gap we have between our promising youth and our old stars.

Correct. It's the players 22-27 which are our problem. The players in the 'premieship age'.

What it means is that, in theory, we need to wait till our current youth reaches 22 before our window opens. So maybe 3-4 years.

 

[MarkT]

Essendons 06 draft which you believe was poor?

Scott Gumbleton
Leroy Jetta
Alwyn Davey
Bachar Houli
Kyle Reimers
Mal Michael

Not exactly. I said over the last 5 years. You might get some quality from 06. It is ridiculous to suggest anything from 2007. Pre 2006 was poor. That’s why you have slid.

Now just on 2006:
If it was a superdraft then getting a few hits is nothing short of acceptable minimum. I am pretty happy with Reid, Brown and Dawes, Dick and Goldsack. Essendon started the draft at 2 and picked Gumbleton. He has to be a gun to rate it as a good selection. Not just a senior player but an outright gun. Essendon passed up Leuenburger, presumably because they had Laycock and Hille. Essendon’s last pick was 47 which they used on Reimers. Collingwood went to 63 and picked up Goldsack who played a ripper first year after making his way through the VFL and played well in finals. Essendon then picked up Mal Michael instead of a kid – maybe like Goldsack in a “superdraft”.

I’d rather Collingwood’s draft than Essendon’s quite frankly.

 

[bOmBeR_BoY1]

It's fairly obvious/amusing that neutral posters in this thread are choosing the team that has the better recent record over their own team in determining which has the better list. Just putting it out there, guys.

The answer is fairly straight forward. One played in a Preliminary Final last season, one finished 12th. Do Pies' supporters really need to have a complex about this? Essendon has had a superior list to Collingwood's in the past 10 years or so up until about 2002/03, again the trend was reversed in 2004/05 and recently the Pies have again gained the upper hand. And no doubt the trend will reverse again.

 

[MarkT]

Essedon has drafted as well if not better than any club over the last two years. If you think we have drafted poorly in those years you have no idea. If you had of said it is too early to judge that would have made sense but you made a point of stating the the Pies have drafted well in the last 3 years so you obviously believe it is not too early to speculate on such things.

Too early for 2007.
Some of the players from the last 3 drafts that played good senior footy and played in finals last year:
Rusling,
Cloke,
Thomas,
Pendlebury,
Goldsack,
Clarke,

2 of those were 1 & 2 in the B&F.

O’Brien was first rookied 2004 and added to the list at the end of 2005 along with Maxwell. Not sure if they count as 2005 draft. Reid and Egan have shown a bit. As much as many young Bomber players. Dawes I really like. Only Wood from 2007 has any exposed form.

 

[hulld]

Gumbleton, Dempsey, Davey, Jetta, Reimers, Hislop, Houli, Myers, Pears, Stanton, Dyson, Ryder, Lonergan, Nash, Neagle, Laycock and Lovett are all young and have plenty of years ahead of them. i rest my case

 

[cs61]

It's fairly obvious/amusing that neutral posters in this thread are choosing the team that has the better recent record over their own team in determining which has the better list. Just putting it out there, guys.

The answer is fairly straight forward. One played in a Preliminary Final last season, one finished 12th. Do Pies' supporters really need to have a complex about this? Essendon has had a superior list to Collingwood's in the past 10 years or so up until about 2002/03, again the trend was reversed in 2004/05 and recently the Pies have again gained the upper hand. And no doubt the trend will reverse again.

Weird post.

Collingwood are an extremely young list, who don't rely on senior players and had a very even spread of players. Yes they made a preliminary final early, due to their spread of players.

Essendon have a promising list, but lack the important age group, and older players make up their key positions so it'll be touch and go whether they're competitive still whilst Lloyd, Lucas, Fletcher, Michael, are still around.

I find it funny that you wouldn't take into account that Collingwood made a preliminary final last year to work out that they're pretty good. They came very close to knocking out the premier as well.

 

[cs61]

Gumbleton, Dempsey, Davey, Jetta, Reimers, Hislop, Houli, Myers, Pears, Stanton, Dyson, Ryder, Lonergan, Nash, Neagle, Laycock and Lovett are all young and have plenty of years ahead of them. i rest my case

Its just a list of names though, and there is no way to work out how good those players are going to be in the future really.

If you had a core of 22-26 players who were really solid, that list would look promising to compliment them, but IMO Essendon don't have that which makes their list look a little hollow compared to others.

I think they'll still be quite competitive and could make the 8, but I don't think they are top 4 material for that reason.