Toast Goldstein - Back in business

[Saintly31]

We can keep him but it is blatantly obvious that Goldy is hampered by him, and we're a better side with Goldy in the ruck than Hamish.

It's harsh but there are very few arguments for McIntosh being in the 22 when everyone is fit.

Yeah, it is. Its nice to ponder the "two ruck" setup working like it does WCE, but the fact is our two rucks strengths do not compliment each other anything like NicNat/Cox.

Secondly, Hank's best days seem behind him with injuries taking their toll. He is not mobile enough to consider as a second ruck, and for the same reason cant be considered for a KPF position at 1s level with Petrie (and other talls) already up there.

Anyway, this thread is about Goldstein and clearly he plays much better footy with HMac out of the team - thats all that needs to be considered.

 

[r_boy]

They've got Drew taking all the forward line ruck contests at the moment and Goldy outside forward 50 setting up the zone pre-emptively.

 

[Devil Fish]

A month ago I was getting my pen poised to write him off again, but he has been really solid of late.
WTF do we do with Hamish? The obvious suggestion is trade him, but what if Goldy got injured??????

 

[TROO]

Daw/Goldy will compliment each other - Hamish trade bait, teams need good ruckmen should be able to do a pretty good deal surely

 

[Tas]

Daw doesn't even play consistently in the VFL, talk of him replacing Monster are chronically premature.

Monster could play Hansen's role as a third tall and to only ruck when Goldy needs a chop out, however, he would probably need to focus more on being an effective forward than a pinch hit forward, that is he needs to learn to gel with the other forwards. He is probably a better shot on goal than Hansen is at this point in time.

Question is do we play Hansen at CHB? It would be pretty good to have the versatility to switch Hansen and Tarrant back or forward. If we do push Hansen back, that would mean Grima would need to play full back.

 

[the big lebowski]

When Goldy is in form he is so clean with his hands. the first few rounds he was fumbling and looked like a standard ruckman. Now he looks like the gun he really is.

 

[Saintly31]

Daw doesn't even play consistently in the VFL, talk of him replacing Monster are chronically premature.

Monster could play Hansen's role as a third tall and to only ruck when Goldy needs a chop out, however, he would probably need to focus more on being an effective forward than a pinch hit forward, that is he needs to learn to gel with the other forwards. He is probably a better shot on goal than Hansen is at this point in time.

Question is do we play Hansen at CHB? It would be pretty good to have the versatility to switch Hansen and Tarrant back or forward. If we do push Hansen back, that would mean Grima would need to play full back.

Tas, he has proven in the past he cant effectively play full-time KPF.

His only role in the team is as a ruckman- and we already have a better one, the whole team should not revolve around trying to fit McIntosh back in because he is a good bloke. It really is just unlucky for Hamish that Goldy has gone past him.

 

[Tas]

Tas, he has proven in the past he cant effectively play full-time KPF.

His only role in the team is as a ruckman- and we already have a better one, the whole team should not revolve around trying to fit McIntosh back in because he is a good bloke. It really is just unlucky for Hamish that Goldy has gone past him.

He hasn't been that great as a forward when our supply hasn't been that great, but most people laud Petrie as a forward and he has averaged 2.3 goals last year and is averaging 2.1 this year and has had a gazillion inside 50s go his way. We got 3 goals out of Petrie and we didn't go to him that much.

The more you go to one or two targets, the easier it is to set up a zone which makes it harder on them to get the ball. A dangerous forward line has many options and ones which can isolate a weak link in he back line. Sometimes less is more, if you know what I mean.

While Hansen didn't offer us spectacular value in terms of his direct contribution to the scoreboard, he and Dish copped the better defenders and Tarrant was allowed to exploit the weak link. I think if Monster was playing, he would have been able to perform a similar role, given our supply was pretty good.

I am not talking about throwing Hansen out or upsetting the team balance, I just feel Monster could add value to our forward line and would allow us to have the backup ruckman in game without dragging Petrie out of the forward line. Hansen also has significant value as a key defender and with Tarrant up forward gives us some versatility to mix up the forward and back lines in a game if game plan A isn't working.

Monster kicked 1.1, 3.0 and 2.2 in his first 3 rounds this season before playing predominately the main ruck as Goldy went off the boil and that was only as a part time forward. I think he has it in him to average a couple of goals a week, simply due to his size alone he would cause massive match up problems. We have him contracted for the next few years, he has been loyal to the club, I would prefer we try and make it work in a positive way rather than a negative way.

The way we torched Goldy from the start of the year was a negative way, we took a great strength for us and almost killed it. If we went with Monster as a third tall (like Eagles play Lynch, Cox and NN) then I think it could have been a great development. The problem is we stuffed Goldy up trying to turn him into a defender, there was no reason for us to try an **** him up like that. Monster just wants to be part of the team, give him a chance I say, in a role that helps the team.

 

[Husk]

The trouble with McIntosh as a forward is his lack of mobility.

When the team is pressing up he cant work back into space like Hansen or Petrie can, and he is useless as a hit up forward for the same reason.

If he comes back into the side we are effectively manufacturing a position just so he can play IMO. He doesn't make the team better as a whole unless he is playing 90% in the ruck.

 

[Black Diamond]

Would love him to do similar to Maric when we play the Tigers. Just to shut a few up...

 

[Fart Cummings]

love it when he floats into the back line and cuts it off!

 

[TROO]

Hamish is unfortunately to slow across the ground, goldy was everywhere against the crows he is a machine, i know Daw is still rough around the edges but hey with Tom curran on LTI list lets promote him and give him a go thats the only way he will learn is if he plays AFL!!!
I have heard in recent weeks he has been going down back and playing there for a bit, has great speed and athleticism.... and is definitely not soft at the contest.
Everyone says hes not ready or he is to inconsistent but sometimes moments of brilliance which he produces is enough to swing momentum - unfortunately Hamish (monster) cannot porvide that to the future north melbourne team,
Dont get me wrong, i feel sorry for him to cos he is loved by everyone and is a good ruckman but as someone said earlier Goldy has gone way past him which is just modern football its a business, we cant keep hanging on just cos we love a bloke, if the way forward is without him so be it..

 

[shintemaster]

Hamish is unfortunately to slow across the ground, goldy was everywhere against the crows he is a machine, i know Daw is still rough around the edges but hey with Tom curran on LTI list lets promote him and give him a go thats the only way he will learn is if he plays AFL!!!
I have heard in recent weeks he has been going down back and playing there for a bit, has great speed and athleticism.... and is definitely not soft at the contest.

With a team including Petrie, Hansen, Tarrant in addition to Goldstein there is little need to go to the extreme of playing someone like Daw or Mabon until they are genuinely ready.

 

[Passmore]

Daw doesn't even play consistently in the VFL, talk of him replacing Monster are chronically premature.

Monster could play Hansen's role as a third tall and to only ruck when Goldy needs a chop out, however, he would probably need to focus more on being an effective forward than a pinch hit forward, that is he needs to learn to gel with the other forwards. He is probably a better shot on goal than Hansen is at this point in time.

Question is do we play Hansen at CHB? It would be pretty good to have the versatility to switch Hansen and Tarrant back or forward. If we do push Hansen back, that would mean Grima would need to play full back.

I think we got the balance of side pretty much spot on. I'd like to keep it as close to this as possible. Backline contained run and skill amd teh forwrd line, whilst tall, was mobile.

Hamish could play a role as a tall forward, however it would be in a different capacity to Hansen. No way could he cover as much ground.

McIntosh will just need to recover from his injury, regain touch in the VFL and wait for an opportunity.

 

[Passmore]

When Goldy is in form he is so clean with his hands. the first few rounds he was fumbling and looked like a standard ruckman. Now he looks like the gun he really is.

Was it just me, or was that the fittest Goldy has looked all year? He was getting to contests that he wouldn't have got near earlier in the season.

 

[GarnerSmash]

My 2 cents on the whole ruck issue:

1. Goldy in form is our number 1 ruck and it's good to see him play himself back to something like his 2011 form.
2. Having H in the side was not the reason why Goldy was out of form. That rests solely on his shoulders.
3. Having Tarrant and Hansen in the forward line along with Dish, who relief rucks, makes H's place in the side redundant as we become more flexible as all three can play the hit up role to the wings and apply decent defensive pressure.
4. If this forward line gels H will be on very thin ice.
5. If Mabon or Daw make big strides in the second half of the year then H is on even thinner ice for 2013.
6. Daw is not ready for the AFL.
7. Paying $400K for a back up ruck is not good business, but even if he gets traded out odds are NM get lumped with a fair portion of his salary.

 

[mark73]

Was it just me, or was that the fittest Goldy has looked all year? He was getting to contests that he wouldn't have got near earlier in the season.

Goldstein is the number one ruck, there's no doubt about that. It'll be interesting to see how Tarrant performs against St.Kilda. He's got the ability and the size it's just a matter of whether he does it and stays injury free. H will need to work his way back into the team. My main concern about Hamish is that for a guy his size, he should be a much better overhead mark.

 

[DJ Dupree]

re: Daw

Seems that for some, it's seen as a fast-tracking of development to play in the seniors straight away, seemingly getting a leave pass to have average games because by being surrounded by top-end talent, they will eventually learn more, and that VFL form counts for nothing because it's a different speed and they can't be judged on it because it's a different game completely.

Yet for others, they have to prove themselves time and time again before they even get a look-in to being selected to the seniors, because they need to 'develop'.

I don't think a game here and there, to introduce him to the pace of AFL would hurt. It's not as if we haven't persisted week after week with other players who have not earned their spots through the VFL. Maybe when/if the season is shot, he could come in and see if he has that X factor.

He might not, but hey, he's "young" and "will be good one day".

 

[mark73]

re: Daw

Seems that for some, it's seen as a fast-tracking of development to play in the seniors straight away, seemingly getting a leave pass to have average games because by being surrounded by top-end talent, they will eventually learn more, and that VFL form counts for nothing because it's a different speed and they can't be judged on it because it's a different game completely.

Yet for others, they have to prove themselves time and time again before they even get a look-in to being selected to the seniors, because they need to 'develop'.

I don't think a game here and there, to introduce him to the pace of AFL would hurt. It's not as if we haven't persisted week after week with other players who have not earned their spots through the VFL. Maybe when/if the season is shot, he could come in and see if he has that X factor.

He might not, but hey, he's "young" and "will be good one day".

Can I just ask, what the hell are you talking about?

 

[GarnerSmash]

Can I just ask, what the hell are you talking about?

In short, Cunnington gets games on perceived potential, so why can't Daw?

 

[Event Horizon]

Can I just ask, what the hell are you talking about?

He is quite clearly saying that even though Daw hasn't necessarily earned a game through his VFL form, neither have plenty of others who are currently getting a game. Therefore, it may be a good idea to give Majak some games this season just to give him a taste for it, especially if the season is shot.

Personally, I disagree with such a strategy, although it's probably true that Bon has done this with Cunnington and even Ziebell in his first 20 games or so. We have to remember that Majak is still new to the game and with him it's not just about getting used to the pace of AFL footy, but rather knowing what his role is and actually knowing what to do out there. A solid VFL apprenticeship is an absolute must for him, and unless we are decimated with injuries I can't see him getting games this season.

 

[mark73]

In short, Cunnington gets games on perceived potential, so why can't Daw?

If we were 11-2 or 10-3 I'm sure Daw would be considered, but you must keep in mind he hasn't been doing a lot at reserve level. I haven't noticed his name in the best all that often. Obviously Scott see's a role for Cunnington where as we're adequately covered in Daw's area.

 

[Tas]

My 2 cents on the whole ruck issue:

1. Goldy in form is our number 1 ruck and it's good to see him play himself back to something like his 2011 form.
2. Having H in the side was not the reason why Goldy was out of form. That rests solely on his shoulders.
3. Having Tarrant and Hansen in the forward line along with Dish, who relief rucks, makes H's place in the side redundant as we become more flexible as all three can play the hit up role to the wings and apply decent defensive pressure.
4. If this forward line gels H will be on very thin ice.
5. If Mabon or Daw make big strides in the second half of the year then H is on even thinner ice for 2013.
6. Daw is not ready for the AFL.
7. Paying $400K for a back up ruck is not good business, but even if he gets traded out odds are NM get lumped with a fair portion of his salary.

They might sit down with Monster and see where he sees himself in the future and how that fits in with the club. I am hoping things work out and he has a role, however, in the worst case scenario having Monster contracted for a few years makes him more attractive to say a Collingwood who has severe salary cap issues.

I don't think they can realistically keep all their players, with Cloke wanting $800k+ they are only going to get that with a shake up of their list. I doubt Pendlebury, Swan and Thomas re-signed on the cheap. If they think Jolly is done as a ruckman they might put him out to pasture, we might be able to do a trade with them involving Monster and say someone like possibly Beams (with the shuffling of picks) who would be looking for a decent pay rise and if we carry Monster's contract like we carried Hale's contract it would give him significant value. They would be stronger in the ruck department and have the cap space to sign everyone else who is atm waiting for the crumbs to be allocated their way.

 

[GarnerSmash]

If we were 11-2 or 10-3 I'm sure Daw would be considered, but you must keep in mind he hasn't been doing a lot at reserve level. I haven't noticed his name in the best all that often. Obviously Scott see's a role for Cunnington where as we're adequately covered in Daw's area.

Oh, I agree with you mark, just translating. Daw is competitive at VFL bus doesn't offer enough around the ground yet methinks. I'd like to see him played forward more with the Werribee bringing Sullivan (I think) back to ruck with Daw as chop out.

 

[GarnerSmash]

They might sit down with Monster and see where he sees himself in the future and how that fits in with the club. I am hoping things work out and he has a role, however, in the worst case scenario having Monster contracted for a few years makes him more attractive to say a Collingwood who has severe salary cap issues.

I don't think they can realistically keep all their players, with Cloke wanting $800k+ they are only going to get that with a shake up of their list. I doubt Pendlebury, Swan and Thomas re-signed on the cheap. If they think Jolly is done as a ruckman they might put him out to pasture, we might be able to do a trade with them involving Monster and say someone like possibly Beams (with the shuffling of picks) who would be looking for a decent pay rise and if we carry Monster's contract like we carried Hale's contract it would give him significant value. They would be stronger in the ruck department and have the cap space to sign everyone else who is atm waiting for the crumbs to be allocated their way.

Seems reasonable Tas. If the planets do align with our forwards and rucks then this might be feasible, although a Beams trade might be reaching a touch. Perhaps Wellingham could get to North afterall, although he comes across as a bit of an up himself twat.