Trades that hurt your club

[Hipster Doofus]

What rubbish... the dead rubber game doesn't count, umpires got you over the line earlier in the year, and we would have won the GF if it weren't for MM sulking.

Pies were by far the best team in 2011, everyone agrees.

You're childish.

The Cats beat you 3-0 that year, and defeated you handsomely in the Grand Final as your "super team" fell short by 7 goals on the biggest stage to the better team. Everyone Agrees.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

One needs to remember that The Age during the 1990s always commented that many players would refuse to join Sydney if drafted. They indeed contemplated a court case overthrowing the draft entirely and creating a fully open player market.

Thus, the Swans cannot be deemed that easily to have done the wrong thing. It is a minor achievement that the draft has not been challenged (will an Abbott leadership produce judges more sympathetic to a challenge?) and that, despite the effect of Docklands in slowing the growth of the talent pool, there have not been notable appeals against a weak and poor club drafting a very promising player who does not want to play there. I have my suspicions that Melbourne, St. Kilda and perhaps the Bulldogs may have this problem in the near future however, and whether the legitimacy of the draft would be threatened is a good question. (It is easy to see how court judges could say the draft has propped up unviable clubs for a long period and that renders it illegitimate).

The collective bargaining agreement makes it almost impossible for a player who is a member of the AFLPA to challenge the draft. An 18 year old kid could but where is he going to find $2mil and 2 to 3 years to fight it.

In 1992 there was a CBA between the players and AFL but it was rather weak. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFL_Players_Association

The NSWRL lost their 1991 draft case in the full Federal Court on appeal by the players (who lost before a single judge) because the league and players didn't have a CBA and the players opposed a draft.

In the USA baseball has a legal exemption from anti trust laws but the Supreme Court saw this as an anomaly in the famous 1972 Flood v Kuhn case that baseball won 5-3, but lost in the court of public opinion and introduced free agency as a result. In the USA college players haven't challenged the draft but have said they wont accept being drafted by a particular team and go and do something else.

1979 #1 draftee Ohio State linebacker Tom Cousineau was taken as the top overall pick in 1979 by the Buffalo Bills, but he didn't want to play for the Bills and signed with the Canadian Football League's Montreal Alouettes.

1983 #1 draftee John Elway couldn't stand the thought of playing for Robert Irsay's Baltimore Colts and signed a contract with George Steinbrenner's Yankees. While Elway was patrolling the outfield for the New York-Penn League's Oneonta Yankees, the frustrated Colts dealt his rights to the Denver Broncos.

1986 #1 draftee Bo Jackson was pissed off that Tampa Bay Buccaneers' flew him on their private jet to check out their facilities and he asked if they cleared that it was all ok with the NCAA, they told him yes when they didn't check, but later the NCAA said this broke their rules and stopped him playing baseball in his final year at college, so he signed a contract with the Kansas City Royals and told them to get lost. Jackson did eventually play in the NFL for the Los Angeles Raiders.

Between 1983 and 1985 several players drafted by NFL teams didn't like who drafted them, so they went and played in the USAFL, in particular Jim Kelly who didn't want to go to Buffalo, but ended up there after the USAFL folded and became a legend.

And it isn't easy to win in court in the USA and it won't be in Oz but if an undrafted player challenges it, then only the 3 judges listening to the case will know whether it is possible or not. Remember that in 1991 the Full Federal court 3-0 overturned a single judge's decision to make illegal the forerunner to today's NRL - the NSW Rugby Leauge's draft.

I wrote a long post with references to US situation and court cases in the following post on the Port board.


http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/what-to-do-with-the-port-magpies.1004084/page-4#post-28189474

 

[mianfei]

In the USA college players haven't challenged the draft but have said they wont accept being drafted by a particular team and go and do something else.

College players of which sport? Which team is it that they do not want to be drafted by and why?

And it isn't easy to win in court in the USA and it won't be in Oz but if an undrafted player challenges it, then only the 3 judges listening to the case will know whether it is possible or not. Remember that in 1991 the Full Federal court 3-0 overturned a single judge's decision to make illegal the forerunner to today's NRL - the NSW Rugby League's draft.

I wrote a long post with references to US situation and court cases in the following post on the Port board.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/what-to-do-with-the-port-magpies.1004084/page-4#post-28189474

There is an interesting article by Loek Groot titled “Competitive Balance in Team Sports: The Scoring Context, Referees, and Overtime” that actually argues to the effect that restraints of trade may be legitimate in the AFL. Although it actually deals only with European soccer vis-à-vis North American sports, the principles can be very easily applied to the AFL to suggest that the draft, salary cap and other such features are legitimate restraints of trade in the AFL - even if they are not in the NRL where scoring is much lower.

If we follow Groot, it is easy to see that the natural level of competitive balance in Australian football must be exceedingly low compared to soccer, gridiron, ice hockey or baseball, not only because of the high-scoring nature of the sport, but also because its requirement for very large fields effectively limits its talent pool to one country.

Of course, judges (and others) could also argue that the draft, salary cap, revenue sharing from television and previously country and metropolitan zoning prevented and prevent the free market from rationalising out the weaker Melbourne-based AFL clubs so that competitive balance would again rise with fewer teams competing for a small pool of talent. In that context they would have to argue that all AFL aid to struggling clubs, which has been a constant feature since the Great Depression when Hawthorn, St. Kilda and North Melbourne nearly went under, was illegal and can be challenged. What long-time fans of clubs forced to fold without AFL aid would do is another difficult question, and the same with the AFL and those clubs who have recently received aid from it.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

College players of which sport? Which team is it that they do not want to be drafted by and why?

If you read my post above and the one I linked on the Port board I gave 3 examples from the 1980's NFL draft plus those like Jim Kelly and Herschel Walker who went to the USAFL instead of the NFL despite the NFL draft.

I don't know of any the last decade if that's what you mean.

 

[KrakFiend]

You weren't the best team at all, Geelong were. You were convincingly beaten twice and bad kicking at goal allowed you to get close the first time around. You've also failed to remember how lucky you were to win the Prelim against the Hawks.

There were three teams playing for the premiership in 2011, and the Cats beat them 6-0, and on their home ground to boot.

Plenty of Pies supporters were, at the time, happy to suggest the final round game "didn't count" but few are so absent minded as to hold onto that theory given what happened on that glorious final Saturday in September.

You're childish.

The Cats beat you 3-0 that year, and defeated you handsomely in the Grand Final as your "super team" fell short by 7 goals on the biggest stage to the better team. Everyone Agrees.

You guys are clearly just trolling. Anyone who doesn't recognize Collingwood 2011 was one of the greatest sides of all time is either taking the piss or doesn't know anything about football.

I doubt many Geelong players really count that premiership, they know who the best side was. Luckily for them they have a couple of other genuine ones.

 

[cayze]

You guys are clearly just trolling. Anyone who doesn't recognize Collingwood 2011 was one of the greatest sides of all time is either taking the piss or doesn't know anything about football.

I doubt many Geelong players really count that premiership, they know who the best side was. Luckily for them they have a couple of other genuine ones.

HAHAHAHA You cannot be serious, no prizes for second.
You cannot claim you are one of the greatest sides of all time if you were easily beaten by the eventual premiers 3 times in the one year, you weren't even as good as Geelong how could you be considered the best side?

 

[cayze]

Puh-lease....

You can hardly count 2011. All neutrals agree Collingwood was the best team that year. Refer to the end of season ladder if that is too confusing for you.

On the topic of ladders and best sides, you should know first hand that ladder positions are irrelevant when considering the best sides. One of the greatest sides of all time Brisbane 2001-03 did not finish on top of the ladder did they?

 

[Dirty Bird]

The Wayne Carey trade.
If only North said no and we moved onto option #2.... Pavlich

 

[Dirty Bird]

If you read my post above and the one I linked on the Port board I gave 3 examples from the 1980's NFL draft plus those like Jim Kelly and Herschel Walker who went to the USAFL instead of the NFL despite the NFL draft.

I don't know of any the last decade if that's what you mean.

Closest would be Eli Manning.
Chargers still drafted him but ended up trading him to New York before he even took a step in San Diego.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

You guys are clearly just trolling. Anyone who doesn't recognize Collingwood 2011 was one of the greatest sides of all time is either taking the piss or doesn't know anything about football.

I doubt many Geelong players really count that premiership, they know who the best side was. Luckily for them they have a couple of other genuine ones.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

One of the greatest side of all time that got done by 7 goals in the Grand Final is a hilarious thought though

 

[invinciBlues]

Couldn't come close to matching the contract from Sydney. Got him to the club he nominated. Was trying not to raise COLA here, but can you see a pattern in those two?

He left because he couldn't get a game, not because Sydney offered him more money. It was list mismanagement by the footy department that made him turn his back. You're talking about a Kennedy from Hawthorn. Probably would've played for peanuts if he could get on the ground.

 

[The Final Word]

He left because he couldn't get a game, not because Sydney offered him more money. It was list mismanagement by the footy department that made him turn his back. You're talking about a Kennedy from Hawthorn. Probably would've played for peanuts if he could get on the ground.

Money was definitely the deciding factor, he would have been confident of getting a game as he'd held down a spot until Ottens came back. I don't begrudge him at all, he was a bloke that gave everything for the Cats and when a knockout offer of around $1,000,000 over 3 years for someone only 1(?) year removed from the rookie list comes in, what do you expect him to do.

Very odd that it's raised in this thread, both Sydney and Geelong have won a premiership since the trade and both Mitch Duncan and Shane Mumford have a premiership medallion each. Duncan's having come against one of the greatest teams to ever grace our game

 

[invinciBlues]

Money was definitely the deciding factor, he would have been confident of getting a game as he'd held down a spot until Ottens came back. I don't begrudge him at all, he was a bloke that gave everything for the Cats and when a knockout offer of around $1,000,000 over 3 years for someone only 1(?) year removed from the rookie list comes in, what do you expect him to do.

Very odd that it's raised in this thread, both Sydney and Geelong have won a premiership since the trade and both Mitch Duncan and Shane Mumford have a premiership medallion each. Duncan's having come against one of the greatest teams to ever grace our game

Sorry mate, I think you misunderstand. I was talking about Josh Kennedy not Mumford, probably shouldve edited out the last little bit about him. Will do so now.

 

[The Final Word]

Sorry mate, I think you misunderstand. I was talking about Josh Kennedy not Mumford, probably shouldve edited out the last little bit about him. Will do so now.

right you are. Kennedy at that point was surplus to requirements at Hawthorn, queuing up behind Mitchall and Sewell as an inside mid. Not sure about the contract, can't imagine that Sydney would have paid him a large increase on his existing Hawks deal. Certainly seemed like a move for game time. Classic revisionist call from many to say the Hawks stuffed up badly, not sure (m)any were saying that immediately when the deal went through.

And similar to the Mumford for pick 28, I'm not sure it's really set anyone back, they played in a 10 point margin grand final last year.

 

[invinciBlues]

right you are. Kennedy at that point was surplus to requirements at Hawthorn, queuing up behind Mitchall and Sewell as an inside mid. Not sure about the contract, can't imagine that Sydney would have paid him a large increase on his existing Hawks deal. Certainly seemed like a move for game time. Classic revisionist call from many to say the Hawks stuffed up badly, not sure (m)any were saying that immediately when the deal went through.

Im not being revisionist though. Travis Tuck was getting a game ahead of him. And aside from the third strike controversy, he was never really an AFL level footballer. There were a couple of others but they escape my mind right now.

What the main factor in Kennedy leaving was Hawthorn only offered him a 1 year contract, whereas Sydney offered 4 years. Kennedy was even quoted at the time as saying "I would have loved to continue playing for Hawthorn (or something to that effect). It was pretty clear they intended on delisting him.

 

[benbanjo]

Im not being revisionist though. Travis Tuck was getting a game ahead of him. And aside from the third strike controversy, he was never really an AFL level footballer. There were a couple of others but they escape my mind right now.

What the main factor in Kennedy leaving was Hawthorn only offered him a 1 year contract, whereas Sydney offered 4 years. Kennedy was even quoted at the time as saying "I would have loved to continue playing for Hawthorn (or something to that effect). It was pretty clear they intended on delisting him.

Kennedy just cam outta nowhere, bit weak of the Hawks to let such a big name to the club go, but it is what it is, he wasn't setting the world on fire at the hawks from what i heard, plus Sydney's game style really suits him.

Mumford is not even a question he got offered big money for a player that had not shown very much, cant blame him... plus that was a win/win anyway....

 

[Looney]

I can't recall last time Collingwood was burned by trades. Probably Mal Michael to Bris.

 

[Looney]

So who did we get for Cam Cloke, Jack Anthony, and Chris Dawes?

 

[benbanjo]

I can't recall last time Collingwood was burned by trades. Probably Mal Michael to Bris.

Collingwood are generally pretty fair at the trade table, which is suprising from a big 4 club because the other 3 are not like that.

 

[Daniltchenko You Beauty]

- Traded pick #7 to get pick #10 and Chad Morrison. There were other pieces that moved around but Hawthorn got pick #7 and picked up Jordan Lewis ... we got stuck with Chris Egan. I dunno if we would have drafted Lewis with #7 but would love him playing for Collingwood. Egan is gone and Morrison did NOTHING.

- Heath Scotland for pick #35. I'm sure it was #35 and Scotland has been a good player for a long time. I know we drafted Brent Hall with that pick and he was useless.

- Steven Mckee. We could have had Pavlich, I think.

This is just poor recruiting, not poor trading. If you're recruiting people had selected better these trades could have paid off

 

[ImperialPurple]

So who did we get for Cam Cloke, Jack Anthony, and Chris Dawes?

Thank the gods we didn't give you anything for Anthony as we picked him up in the PSD. No idea what you got for Cloke, but pick 20ish for Dawes IIRC.

 

[jacko57]

Jonathan Hay

Really really really disappointing

We've picked up a lot of spuds over the years : Hay, Picioane, Power, Calthorpe, Plain, Keenan Reynolds, Joe McLaren.

Maybe that's the swings & roundabouts you go through ; we certainly got good value from pickups from other clubs like Rocca, Thompson, Blaey, Ischenko, Robert Scott, Pike, Mark Roberts, Abraham, Burton, Grant.

But Hay certainly stands out as the used car we bought without an engine under the hood.

 

[CasuallyDressed]

This is just poor recruiting, not poor trading. If you're recruiting people had selected better these trades could have paid off

I don't think we needed to trade for Morrison. The team was already slow back then (still is) and we brought in a slow, plodding half back flanker who was just one of Malthouse's favorites back at West Coast.

Trading for players who don't fill a need = poor trading.

 

[benbanjo]

We've picked up a lot of spuds over the years : Hay, Picioane, Power, Calthorpe, Plain, Keenan Reynolds, Joe McLaren.

Maybe that's the swings & roundabouts you go through ; we certainly got good value from pickups from other clubs like Rocca, Thompson, Blaey, Ischenko, Robert Scott, Pike, Mark Roberts, Abraham, Burton, Grant.

But Hay certainly stands out as the used car we bought without an engine under the hood.

We had to trade... we were unable to develop our own back then... with the exception of a few...

 

[mianfei]

If you read my post above and the one I linked on the Port board I gave 3 examples from the 1980's NFL draft plus those like Jim Kelly and Herschel Walker who went to the USAFL instead of the NFL despite the NFL draft.

I don't know of any the last decade if that's what you mean.

Actually, when NFL teams have been reasonably close to the situation St. Kilda and Melbourne are now (taking into account that gridiron is naturally and culturally much more competitively balanced than football), drafted players may not wish to join them, but other players have always been willing to go in exchange, and usually do prove useful.