Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[Xsess]

Maggie you'd be pleased to know, not only is Operation Soverign Border protecting our shores its also stopping the flow of people into detention. The transfer of ‘so called refugees’ to the Sri Lankan Navy is further proof of the Abbott governments resolve. 180 odd people saved from detention.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Lets step back a minute, the boats have stopped (well almost).
My concern is how we are treating the ones that are already here, especially the children, which is my immediate concern. Almost 1000 currently in detention, most for over 12 months. In camps that appear more like concentration camps, than refugee camps.
If they media doesn't draw attention to this, who will?

First of all, the stats are 196 on Christmas Island and about 200 on Nauru unless you're arguing that every facility in Oz is Auschwitz

Why do you think the government has chosen to treat children no different to Adults in their process?

Is it because the L/NP are sociopaths who just like making girls cry? or is there some bigger picture that you're missing?

What would happen if they announce that "We'll release every child from detention and treat them differently from now on?"



Take a look at what is happening at the United states at the moment.

Border patrol on the Mexico border a year or two ago started to see a drastic increase of unaccompanied children suddenly turning up seeking asylum. People smugglers have been spreading rumours that the US will accept any child after a change of policy in 2012 brought in by the Obama administration.

From thousands to tens of thousands, children as young as three or four have been making the journey from central american countries like Honduras and Guatemala. They're expecting ninety thousand this year and a 150 thousand next year.

They're trekking through a number of countries including Mexico in the midst of drug and human trafficking operations and vulnerable to forced prostitution and other evils.

There are so many children turning up at the southern border that US authorites have no idea what to do with them. According to SBS some of them have been cramped into warehouses with disaster emergency rations so crowded that children can only take a shower once every ten days.


As we've seen with the boats from southern India, people smugglers are hard at work trying to figure out any chink in the armor of our border protection policies. As can be seen by the humanitarian crisis in America there can be unintended consequences in offering incentives for desperate people to bypass normal procedure.

 

[Xsess]

Lol, you are so full of shit.

Here are a few questions that I would like answered by people like you, who would rather vilify and belittle than actually contribute!

Which is more cruel? To have numbers of people in detention decreasing (as was the case under Howard and is the case now), or to have it increasing because people smuggling is alive and well?

Which is more cruel? To allow people to drown at sea? Or to have people not attempting the dangerous journey and potentially save thousands of lives?

Which is more cruel? To have the capacity to take those already processed and waiting in refugee camps around the world (sometimes for their whole life), or to give that place to someone else who had the resources to pay for the journey to get here first?

Which is more cruel? To provide jobs and lucrative businesses to underhanded people who prey on those in vulnerable situations, offering them a false dream and hope in exchange for large sums of cash and then putting their lives at risk. Or putting those people smugglers out of business?

 

[Maggie5]

Maggie you'd be pleased to know, not only is Operation Soverign Border protecting our shores its also stopping the flow of people into detention. The transfer of ‘so called refugees’ to the Sri Lankan Navy is further proof of the Abbott governments resolve. 180 odd people saved from detention.

"protecting our shores" - are we at war?

 

[Maggie5]

First of all, the stats are 196 on Christmas Island and about 200 on Nauru unless you're arguing that every facility in Oz is Auschwitz.
Why do you think the government has chosen to treat children no different to Adults in their process?

Is it because the L/NP are sociopaths who just like making girls cry? or is there some bigger picture that you're missing?
What would happen if they announce that "We'll release every child from detention and treat them differently from now on?"



Take a look at what is happening at the United states at the moment.

Border patrol on the Mexico border a year or two ago started to see a drastic increase of unaccompanied children suddenly turning up seeking asylum. People smugglers have been spreading rumours that the US will accept any child after a change of policy in 2012 brought in by the Obama administration.

From thousands to tens of thousands, children as young as three or four have been making the journey from central american countries like Honduras and Guatemala. They're expecting ninety thousand this year and a 150 thousand next year.

They're trekking through a number of countries including Mexico in the midst of drug and human trafficking operations and vulnerable to forced prostitution and other evils.

There are so many children turning up at the southern border that US authorites have no idea what to do with them. According to SBS some of them have been cramped into warehouses with disaster emergency rations so crowded that children can only take a shower once every ten days.


As we've seen with the boats from southern India, people smugglers are hard at work trying to figure out any chink in the armor of our border protection policies. As can be seen by the humanitarian crisis in America there can be unintended consequences in offering incentives for desperate people to bypass normal procedure.

Of the almost 400 hundred that you refer to, how are we treating them, as adults? You are happy with that? I am not! Have you not read reports from Doctors, that they lack medical treatment, schooling, further they don't have the coping mechanisms that adults do.
Tell me me why you think that they should be treated as adults.
No don't think that they are sociopaths than makes girls cry - just uncaring human beings.
How long does it take to process?
We have signed a UN agreement, to do the right thing, by referring to them as "illegals" is not a good start.
You don't get it, it just makes me physically ill to see how far we have moved from the country I once knew and loved.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...975611545?nk=961022e28f785cd51e046f72fcd5e0df

You shouldn't compare the US/Mexico situation to what is happening here and my reading from the situation is that Obama isn't changing the policy. More difficult to control direct borders and my last reading was over 50,000 of children, agree that is a very difficult situation and I have no suggestions/answers.

Edit: Just in case you thought if this were the Labor Party doing this, my thoughts are still the same

 

[midorigreenwood]

Of the almost 400 hundred that you refer to, how are we treating them, as adults? You are happy with that? I am not! Have you not read reports from Doctors, that they lack medical treatment, schooling, further they don't have the coping mechanisms that adults do.
Tell me me why you think that they should be treated as adults.
No don't think that they are sociopaths than makes girls cry - just uncaring human beings.
How long does it take to process?
We have signed a UN agreement, to do the right thing, by referring to them as "illegals" is not a good start.

It takes a long time to process because most of them turn up with no identification or destroy it on the way.

Noone is happy with the current situation......but the bigger picture is that there is noone wants it to get even worse. In Italy the other day, they found 600 people so cramped into a 20 metre boat that 30 people suffocated to death. There is little doubt that people smugglers have no qualms in sticking children in such situations.

The reality is that families and children are getting processed on Nauru so hopefully they will all be released into the community soon.

You shouldn't compare the US/Mexico situation to what is happening here and my reading from the situation is that Obama isn't changing the policy. More difficult to control direct borders and my last reading was over 50,000 of children, agree that is a very difficult situation and I have no suggestions/answers.

Edit: Just in case you thought if this were the Labor Party doing this, my thoughts are still the same

Obama signed an executive order in 2012 that he'd stop deporting children of illegal immigrants who came in before a certain date and offer them a pathway to obtain work permits. A reasonable proposition but it has obviously encouraged thousands of children to make a harrowing journey in the misguided hope that it also applied to them.

Its a worrying reminder about incentives and unintended consequences as we saw after the softening of Labor policies in 2007

 

[romeoh]

Speaking of a crusade of ignorance. I see this thread is 186 pages long and still no boats.

Yep and I see there are still about 50 million refugees in the world. How proud you must be that the 25,000 we accept puts such a dent in that figure!

 

[telsor]

Yep and I see there are still about 50 million refugees in the world. How proud you must be that the 25,000 we accept puts such a dent in that figure!

Actually our humanitarian intake for 2013/14 is 13750

Evil bastards that we are, we're only 3rd in the world for that.

 

[romeoh]

Actually our humanitarian intake for 2013/14 is 13750

Evil bastards that we are, we're only 3rd in the world for that.

Think the third in the world figure is dodgy isn't t?

 

[Xsess]

I’d like to thank Ian Rintoul and his fellow morons for alerting the Australian navy so that they could intercept and return the country shoppers. As for Morrison, bravo, though we'd be even more impressed if he announced that he had arrested and was about to charge the traitors in Australia that are actively breaking Australian law by assisting these illegal economic immigrants.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Just for the sake of argument we accept these people are economic migrants - they fled from Sri Lanka to the refugee camps in India, and then set sail form India looking for a better life in Australia - why are we returning them to Sri Lanka and not to India where they set sail from? DOesn't seem the right destination.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Not sure if they're serious about the Stormtrooper Helmet logo.

 

[GuruJane]

But we don't know they are not being returned to India. However what we do know is if they came from India they are not refugees from persecution but economic migrants.

I expect the govt's preferred option would be to deliver the passengers back to India but this would have to be negotiated.

 

[GuruJane]

As we've seen with the boats from southern India, people smugglers are hard at work trying to figure out any chink in the armor of our border protection policies.

Yes, its been very instructive to observe how persistent, inventive and well informed the smugglers and their customers are.
Two boats carring Tamils one from Sri Lanka, one from India sailing at the same time. It has also been said that shortly after leaving the India boat rendezvoused with another from Sri Lanka and picked up more passengers. It was said that the \India boat was skippered by a Tamil naval commander from the civil war. How good is that?

So well planned and orchestrated.

Firstly very high number of passengers - 200 plus. To make maximum impact.
Secondly the organisers are in contact with the Australian arm of the people smuggler industry, Rintoul, Fairfax Media et al. Again to make maximum impact.
Thirdly they almost make it. Rintoul etc go too early.

No wonder BF posters, Gough/Sarah, Greens, Labor, Left etc got so excited - such a well planned speccie attempt to blow a hole in the govts border protection policies

Still the Tamils didn't fight a 30 year war as the most brutal, vile, ruthless suicide bombing meglamaniacs for nothing.

As can be seen by the humanitarian crisis in America there can be unintended consequences in offering incentives for desperate people to bypass normal procedure.

Incentivising parents to put their children on the boats, especially without life jackets, can hardly be called "unintended consquences". Maggie has a lot to answer for. On the other hand she just might be extremely foolish.,

 

[Ice-Wolf]

If these refugees originally from Sri Lanka are Tamils how can Abbott and co justify saying they are safe after handing them over to the Sri Lankan Navy? If we caught Palestinian refugees I for one wouldn't feel comfortable handing them over to the IDF and I can't see how handing Tamils over to the Sri Lankan Military could possibly be any better.

 

[Todman]

If these refugees originally from Sri Lanka are Tamils how can Abbott and co justify saying they are safe after handing them over to the Sri Lankan Navy? If we caught Palestinian refugees I for one wouldn't feel comfortable handing them over to the IDF and I can't see how handing Tamils over to the Sri Lankan Military could possibly be any better.

One. The war been over for many years.
Secondly the organisers of the Australian arm of the people smuggler industry,( Rintoul, Fairfax Media, Refugee Advocates), et al. know who they are and will now hope that the Sri Lankan military do something despicable to these migrants so they can hang Abbott and Morrison.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Simply put..... Sri Lanka and Australia are Bros.

Many countries have that one dodgy relationship that raises eyebrows.

Italy (and towards the end Europe) had Gaddafi. the US has Egypt (and many others)

I suspect that countries like Canada and the UK are at the forefront of the Rajapaksa lynching party because they have significant numbers of tamils in their country whom have a fair clout at the ballot box.

One. The war been over for many years.

I prefer to stay neutral on the "Sri Lanka are war criminals" debate.

There is no doubt there has been a tremendous political push by the SL tamil diaspora to punish the present administration for their choices on 2009 through british documentaries/propaganda culminating in a UN inquiry that is up and about.

At the same time, the LTTE are pioneers in the art of public relations. They were at the forefront in embedding cameramen amidst their fighting forces to capture propaganda .....years before the US embedded journalists in Iraq War 2.

Even with their military capability demolished.... the support systems of terrorism like extortion rackets and propaganda units in countries like Malaysia and Canada/UK doesn't simply vanish.

I'd be wary in picking sides and would take with a grain of salt reports eg: that that the military is going on a torturing and raping spree for the fun of it.

The reality is that the SL v LTTE conflict was one of the most vicious in living memory. Instead of embracing a political solution at the end, one side took the piss and paid the price.

Its easy to judge from the comfort of one's couch but I suspect History will look back at the events of 2009 as Sri Lanka's "atomic bomb" or "Tokyo/dresden bombing" moment.

 

[Pie eyed]

Speaking of a crusade of ignorance. I see this thread is 186 pages long and still no boats.

The issue was never about boats.
Abbott did a great job of slipping that past you, but then some people are easily lead.
If it turns out Abbott et al have delivered a group asylum seekers into the hands of their oppressors, I don't think you will be at all bothered.
In fact I reckon your type would be happy to see humans tortured and killed to justify your insular mentality, so you could feel justified in your blindness.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Is there any evidence these people were being persecuted in Sril Lanka?

 

[Pie eyed]

One. The war been over for many years.
Secondly the organisers of the Australian arm of the people smuggler industry,( Rintoul, Fairfax Media, Refugee Advocates), et al. know who they are and will now hope that the Sri Lankan military do something despicable to these migrants so they can hang Abbott and Morrison.

Secondly?
Two or maybe Firstly?
I reckon illiterates should be deported to make room for asylum seekers, but that's just my opinion.
Hopefully Abbott faces a real Royal Commission after his stillborn Government gets the arse at the next election.
Prison terms should be handed out. Better than the sub-human effluent deserves.

 

[Pie eyed]

Is there any evidence these people were being persecuted in Sril Lanka?

Which people?

 

[Gus Poyet]

Which people?

The people we handed over to the Sri Lankan navy.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Is there any evidence these people were being persecuted in Sril Lanka?

That's not the proper question.

The proper question is "if we return these people to Sri Lanka can we guarantee their safety?". The answer to that is probably not if they are Tamils.

 

[Gus Poyet]

That's not the proper question.

The proper question is "if we return these people to Sri Lanka can we guarantee their safety?". The answer to that is probably not if they are Tamils.

How do we know who they are?

 

[Admiral Byng]

How do we know who they are?

In the absence of any hard information from Two-Shits Morrison we'll have to fall back on Fairfax. They spoke to these people by phone, they are claiming to be Tamils.