Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[Max zero]

You can look at boats and arrivals as well on the SMH link I provided.



MaxZero: There was a crisis
Jiska: Nowhere near the quantity involved in the "Europeans illegally overstaying their VISA" crisis.
NB: context.

I would point out I never said there was a crisis.

I simply pointed out that the methods used by Rudd were far less effective then Howards if you go by the numbers of people in dentention.

 

[Power Raid]

I would have thought the issue was a sustainable controlled immigration program?

 

[Norwegian Blue]

I would point out I never said there was a crisis.

I simply pointed out that the methods used by Rudd were far less effective then Howards if you go by the numbers of people in dentention.

Now I'm confused. Here's what you wrote:

It was so bad it actually created a crisis where there wasn't one before.

Oh, well. I've a game on so I'll see where this goes later.

 

[Max zero]

Now I'm confused. Here's what you wrote:

Oh, well. I've a game on so I'll see where this goes later.

Your right dumbass me.

Probably should of used the word 'situation' rather then 'crisis.'

This is why you should be more careful when choosing your words.

The point of the post wasn't to emphasis the 'crisis' but the difference in results between Howards and Rudds approaches. I should of known Jiska would of focused on that one word and ignore the rest of the post.

 

[Todman]

LOL. There's that fear mongering again.

Nowhere near the quantity involved in the "Europeans illegally overstaying their VISA" crisis.

I'm sure we wouldn't mind this group overstaying.

 

[Power Raid]

View attachment 73810


I'm sure we wouldn't mind this group overstaying.

history said we did

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

View attachment 73810


I'm sure we wouldn't mind this group overstaying.

Did you just admit you only hate on boatpeople because they aren't white?

 

[Maggie5]

Okay, let me explain and confirm that both Labor and LNP have the same policy so my post is not based on political parties..

Boats have stopped, no more deaths at sea, people smugglers out of business=no crisis.

My objection is regarding off-shore processing and is based on humanitarian grounds.

There are currently: https://www.humanrights.gov.au/immigration-detention-statistics
3,624 people in immigration detention facilities, and 3,007 people in community detention in Australia as at 30 June 2014.

The cost to the Australian taxpayers:
$61M per month payable to Transfield
http://www.smh.com.au/business/tran...detention-centre-contract-20140224-33d1i.html
What I haven't found out is how much we are paying PNG and Nauru to have the detention centres in their country.
Money has been wasted.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/manus-islands-35m-kitchen-in-a-tent-20140228-33qub.html
On top of these expenses, add the cost of Immigrations staff, air-fares, accommodation and living expenses to process Asylum Seekers.

After spending all this money, they are housed in sub-standard conditions, poor medical facilities, lack of fresh water, clothing and education opportunities as has been documented in the recent inquiry.

Australia has a duty a care for Asylum seekers and I do not believe that they are meeting their commitment.
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/immigration-detention-and-human-rights

This is further evidence by the fact that no-one has been held to account for the death of Reza Berati.

The law in Australia is that the Commonwealth Government owes a non-delegable duty to detainees in immigration detention and the Commonwealth can be held liable "for the negligence of others who are engaged to perform the task of care for a third party - no matter whether the person engaged to provide the care is a servant or an independent contractor," as the High Court stated in a landmark 2003 decision called NSW v Lepore.

I can't believe that we cannot process Asylum Seekers cheaper and more humanely on-shore. Unless the objective is to place these people in a hell-hole so that they will want to return home.

Processing on-shore will give Australians employment, the are already centres in WA, Vic, QLD, why not house them in Tasmania or SA where unemployment is high, where local charities can provide clothing etc.

Not sure why and when Australia lost their compassion.

Further, my understanding is less than 10% have been found not to be genuine AS. (Sorry no link but stand to be corrected).

 

[Maggie5]

Now to the second point where I liked the Jiska post.

A number of people are up in arms about AS but nothing is being said about the overstayers or the people currently on 457 and other numerous visas which are available to migrants to come and work in Australia.

As at 30 June 2013, it was estimated that 62 700 people were unlawfully living in Australia.
https://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/87illegal.htm

The list of occupations listed under skill shortages is laughable, I won't repeat these here as I have posted them previously. Further changes were made in Nov 2013. http://absoluteimmigration.com/labour-market-testing-how-will-they-affect-you/ and of course with the cutting of red tape, it made it even easier.

The people smugglers have been put out of business but a couple of new enterprises have since risen - Forgery of documentation regarding qualifications and experience, and unscrupulous Migration Agents. No links but check out some of the forums and Agents sites.

There have been almost 200,000 coming to Australia on 457 and others that include family members where they too can legally work in Australia.

Now we also have another opportunity for even more.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...relax-457-visas-an-attack-on-young-unemployed
"Employers in the Northern Territory are to be given concessions for employing foreign workers to fill a labour gap created by the $34bn Ichthys gas project".

"The first “designated area migration agreement” (Dama) is expected to be approved and enacted imminently for the Northern Territory, and for the Pilbara later this year, reports the Australian Financial Review. The Dama will allow employers to hire low- and semi-skilled workers to fill vacancies in non-resources sectors without needing to meet strict foreign-worker employment requirements under 457 visa programs".

The government is offering up to $6000 relocation costs to the unemployed that are prepared to go to Darwin for work. Imagine a family of 4 from Tasmania taking up that opportunity, they would be lucky to get to Victoria. If they government were serious, they should offer $6000-$15,000 to re-locate, they would soon recover the costs via taxation and not having to pay Newstart or Pension.

No wonder unemployment is so high in Australia. Yet no-one is making any noise about this situation. Are these migrants, not economic migrants?

 

[Max zero]

Okay, let me explain and confirm that both Labor and LNP have the same policy so my post is not based on political parties..

Boats have stopped, no more deaths at sea, people smugglers out of business=no crisis.

My objection is regarding off-shore processing and is based on humanitarian grounds.

There are currently: https://www.humanrights.gov.au/immigration-detention-statistics
3,624 people in immigration detention facilities, and 3,007 people in community detention in Australia as at 30 June 2014.

The cost to the Australian taxpayers:
$61M per month payable to Transfield
http://www.smh.com.au/business/tran...detention-centre-contract-20140224-33d1i.html
What I haven't found out is how much we are paying PNG and Nauru to have the detention centres in their country.
Money has been wasted.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/manus-islands-35m-kitchen-in-a-tent-20140228-33qub.html
On top of these expenses, add the cost of Immigrations staff, air-fares, accommodation and living expenses to process Asylum Seekers.

After spending all this money, they are housed in sub-standard conditions, poor medical facilities, lack of fresh water, clothing and education opportunities as has been documented in the recent inquiry.

Australia has a duty a care for Asylum seekers and I do not believe that they are meeting their commitment.
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/immigration-detention-and-human-rights

This is further evidence by the fact that no-one has been held to account for the death of Reza Berati.

The law in Australia is that the Commonwealth Government owes a non-delegable duty to detainees in immigration detention and the Commonwealth can be held liable "for the negligence of others who are engaged to perform the task of care for a third party - no matter whether the person engaged to provide the care is a servant or an independent contractor," as the High Court stated in a landmark 2003 decision called NSW v Lepore.

I can't believe that we cannot process Asylum Seekers cheaper and more humanely on-shore. Unless the objective is to place these people in a hell-hole so that they will want to return home.

Processing on-shore will give Australians employment, the are already centres in WA, Vic, QLD, why not house them in Tasmania or SA where unemployment is high, where local charities can provide clothing etc.

Not sure why and when Australia lost their compassion.

Further, my understanding is less than 10% have been found not to be genuine AS. (Sorry no link but stand to be corrected).

And my point is we only have large amount of people in detention because there was a spike in boat arrivals. What caused this spike?

We process offshore to make boat arrivals less attractive. That may well sound cruel but if boat arrivals are more attractive then simply applying through standard channels then we will simply get more and more boat arrivals (as Rudd found out) which leads to more drowings, detention and higher costs.

The fact is as a refugee you have a better chance of getting into Australia if you pay a people smuggler. That's not a workable system.

 

[Max zero]

Now to the second point where I liked the Jiska post.

A number of people are up in arms about AS but nothing is being said about the overstayers or the people currently on 457 and other numerous visas which are available to migrants to come and work in Australia.

As at 30 June 2013, it was estimated that 62 700 people were unlawfully living in Australia.
https://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/87illegal.htm

The list of occupations listed under skill shortages is laughable, I won't repeat these here as I have posted them previously. Further changes were made in Nov 2013. http://absoluteimmigration.com/labour-market-testing-how-will-they-affect-you/ and of course with the cutting of red tape, it made it even easier.

The people smugglers have been put out of business but a couple of new enterprises have since risen - Forgery of documentation regarding qualifications and experience, and unscrupulous Migration Agents. No links but check out some of the forums and Agents sites.

There have been almost 200,000 coming to Australia on 457 and others that include family members where they too can legally work in Australia.

Now we also have another opportunity for even more.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...relax-457-visas-an-attack-on-young-unemployed
"Employers in the Northern Territory are to be given concessions for employing foreign workers to fill a labour gap created by the $34bn Ichthys gas project".

"The first “designated area migration agreement” (Dama) is expected to be approved and enacted imminently for the Northern Territory, and for the Pilbara later this year, reports the Australian Financial Review. The Dama will allow employers to hire low- and semi-skilled workers to fill vacancies in non-resources sectors without needing to meet strict foreign-worker employment requirements under 457 visa programs".

The government is offering up to $6000 relocation costs to the unemployed that are prepared to go to Darwin for work. Imagine a family of 4 from Tasmania taking up that opportunity, they would be lucky to get to Victoria. If they government were serious, they should offer $6000-$15,000 to re-locate, they would soon recover the costs via taxation and not having to pay Newstart or Pension.

No wonder unemployment is so high in Australia. Yet no-one is making any noise about this situation. Are these migrants, not economic migrants?

As I have said many times if there is abuse it should be dealt with. If there is indications that there is widespread abuse then they should be an inquiry.

If you feel the intake is too high (and in some cases I agree that it is) then lobby for change.

Neither of which justify people paying people smugglers to increase their chances of being settled in Australia.

How is paying off a people smuggler and different then paying off an immigration official? They BOTH should be stopped.

 

[Maggie5]

As I have said many times if there is abuse it should be dealt with. If there is indications that there is widespread abuse then they should be an inquiry.

If you feel the intake is too high (and in some cases I agree that it is) then lobby for change.

Neither of which justify people paying people smugglers to increase their chances of being settled in Australia.

How is paying off a people smuggler and different then paying off an immigration official? They BOTH should be stopped.

First Line - people smugglers have stopped.

 

[Max zero]

First Line - people smugglers have stopped.

Good now that the influx has slowed it makes it easier to deal with the people in detention now.

 

[Maggie5]

And my point is we only have large amount of people in detention because there was a spike in boat arrivals. What caused this spike?

We process offshore to make boat arrivals less attractive. That may well sound cruel but if boat arrivals are more attractive then simply applying through standard channels then we will simply get more and more boat arrivals (as Rudd found out) which leads to more drowings, detention and higher costs.

The fact is as a refugee you have a better chance of getting into Australia if you pay a people smuggler. That's not a workable system.

Gee Max, why can't you let go of what has been and talk about the now?
I know why we have 6000 in detention as has been posted over and over again.
My point the cost of off-shore detention (now), and the treatment of AS (now).

 

[Max zero]

Gee Max, why can't you let go of what has been and talk about the now?
I know why we have 6000 in detention as has been posted over and over again.
My point the cost of off-shore detention (now), and the treatment of AS (now).

It's a process.

How can you expect us to deal with the people already here If there are ever growing numbers constantly arriving?

Once we stop the flow then we can deal with the people we have now in an efficient and timely manner. Remember the detention centers used to be closed due to lack a numbers.

Once that is done we can work on issues such as total immigration intake and the makeup of that intake.

 

[Maggie5]

It's a process.

How can you expect us to deal with the people already here If there are ever growing numbers constantly arriving?

Once we stop the flow then we can deal with the people we have now in an efficient and timely manner.

Once that is done we can work on issues such as total immigration intake and the makeup of that intake.

I don't understand you. Have the boats stopped or not?
Who is constantly arriving?
The only problem I see are the overstayers and those that may be rorting the visa system who flew in via plane.

 

[Max zero]

I don't understand you. Have the boats stopped or not?
Who is constantly arriving?
The only problem I see are the overstayers and those that may be rorting the visa system who flew in via plane.

We once the flow has been confirmed as being stopped (or close to it) then we will process those already in detention as we have always done and the numbers will fall naturally. If people arrive faster then you can process them it's very hard to reduce numbers in detention.

Eventually the centers will be closed due to lack of need (as they were before). Hopefully we won't have a Rudd Mk2 (Mk3?) to flare the issue up again.

Maybe we could raise our refugee intake. Maybe we could examine whether we need to change our immigration intake.

But perhaps we need to focus on the more critical issue now (ie the dying) rather the more long term policy issues.

Wouldn't that be the common sense approach?

 

[Maggie5]

We once the flow has been confirmed as being stopped (or close to it) then we will process those already in detention as we have always done and the numbers will fall naturally. If people arrive faster then you can process them it's very hard to reduce numbers in detention.

Eventually the centers will be closed due to lack of need (as they were before). Hopefully we won't have a Rudd Mk2 (Mk3?) to flare the issue up again.

Maybe we could raise our refugee intake. Maybe we could examine whether we need to change our immigration intake.

But perhaps we need to focus on the more critical issue now (ie the dying) rather the more long term policy issues.

Wouldn't that be the common sense approach?

Seriously, I have no idea what you are saying. For example to my knowledge only two boats have arrived in 11 months, one was returned with its passengers and the 150 odd currently in PNG. I would say that is very close to stopped. Given this, unlikely that there would be many more coming given the boats we have patrolling our waters.
To me the critical issues are how we are dealing/treating/processing the 6000 odd that are currently in detention, and, the cost of off-shore processing as opposed to processing them more humanely in Australia. At the same time being very careful not to upset Tony Shepherd.
Nothing more and nothings else - the rest is just noise.

 

[Jiska]

I have never, ever, posted about people in detention. Please feel free to provide a quote to back up your wild, unfounded, claims/post.

If you feel I have unfairly characterized your position then how about you state what your position actually is?

The same question was asked of me and I stated exactly where I stand on all these issues.

Did you plan on justifying your baseless, incorrect statements with a quote as requested, or just diverting attention away from the question asked?

 

[Todman]

Did you just admit you only hate on boatpeople because they aren't white?

They are New Zealanders.

 

[Max zero]

Seriously, I have no idea what you are saying. For example to my knowledge only two boats have arrived in 11 months, one was returned with its passengers and the 150 odd currently in PNG. I would say that is very close to stopped. Given this, unlikely that there would be many more coming given the boats we have patrolling our waters.
To me the critical issues are how we are dealing/treating/processing the 6000 odd that are currently in detention, and, the cost of off-shore processing as opposed to processing them more humanely in Australia. At the same time being very careful not to upset Tony Shepherd.
Nothing more and nothings else - the rest is just noise.

Well if no more people are arriving then the current amount should be processed in a year or so. As it happened before.

I see no burning issue that would cause that timetable to be significantly altered. You are free to feel different of course.

Once they are processed we can discuss 457 visas and our immigration intake while we are no being held to ransom by people smugglers.

 

[Max zero]

Did you plan on justifying your baseless, incorrect statements with a quote as requested, or just diverting attention away from the question asked?

Do you actually have a position to defend? Or are you just another panic merchant?

From your posting history in this thread you seem to say a whole lot of nothing.

I say again if I have characterized you wrongly then correct me by telling me where you actually stand or stop wasting my time.

I'm not going to take responsibility for you being deliberately vague then taking mock offense.

 

[Jakko]

Get the popcorn ready?

 

[Maggie5]

Well if no more people are arriving then the current amount should be processed in a year or so. As it happened before.

I see no burning issue that would cause that timetable to be significantly altered. You are free to feel different of course.

Once they are processed we can discuss 457 visas and our immigration intake while we are no being held to ransom by people smugglers.

Some of these people have already been in detention over a year or more, how long should it take? What about the costs to house them off-shore, we have a 'budget emergency' Where are the costings regarding processing on-shore?

I still can't believe all the posts in this thread over 6000 AS yet no concerns about the overstayers. What about them? 50,000 plus!!

What is being done about the fact that the majority may be in jobs that Australians should be in? Even though the figure was at the end of Labor government's term, not an excuse why this government is not doing something about it. The past is the past, lets try and stay in the present and work towards fixing it for the future.

I also think you have got me wrong about the 457 visas and others. Have no problem if there is a genuine skills shortage but nothing will convince me we have a skills shortage in Beauty Salon Managers, Chef, cooks, kitchen hands, Retail etc etc. Then of course they can bring their parents, siblings, partner, children who in turn are also eligible to work in Australia.

No responses to any of the above? Just maintain the government line against the so called people smugglers, deaths at sea, illegal migrants, blah, blah, blah.
Just to make it clear that we agree that:
The boats have stopped
No more deaths at sea
People smugglers out of business

 

[Power Raid]

How does any of that fit into a sustainable immigration program controlled by the government (not people smugglers)?

There are other many issues at play such as infrastructure, document destroying and operational expertise.