Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[Danny Cullen]

And how many die along the way before we rethink our approach? 2000 downed? 3000? 5000?

You are basically treating those dead as 'acceptable losses' because to you the ends justifies the means.

Stop it. You'll do his head in.

 

[Max zero]

Nope I am just saying let's try to find solutions instead of throwing our hands in the air and saying 'too hard'. This situation is not going away, so the global community needs to keep looking for ways.
Seriously Max, change the record-why do you constantly focus on the past, maybe look for the future and ways forward. Concentrate on the living. We can't undo what has happened but we can get better, that is what being human is about.

I'm focusing on the past because those who don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it.

When people are coming up with the exact same reasoning and the same approaches as Rudd did why wouldn't I think you will end up the same outcome?

And just like with Rudd none of you will take any responsibility for what happens just like how you disown Rudd now when you cheered him when he adopted the 'humanitarian' approach at the start of his term.

Are you going to have onshore processing? Then you will have the same results as Rudd did.

Are you going to reward asylum seekers with preferrial treatment if they bring children? Then you will get the same result as Rudd did.

If you make leaky boat rides more likely to get you granted asylum then applying from a refugee camp then you will get the same result as Rudd did.

If you make paying a people smuggler and destroying identification a benefit to your asylum application then you will get the same results as Rudd did.

I'll stop bringing up the past if you stop trying to repeat it. Deal?

 

[Mofra]

And how many die along the way before we rethink our approach? 2000 downed? 3000? 5000?

You are basically treating those dead as 'acceptable losses' because to you the ends justifies the means.

Cheerleading a Machiavellian government approach then using "ends justifies the means" to deride another?
Interesting.

 

[Gough]

I'd call the system more Kafkaesque than Machiavellian.

 

[Danny Cullen]

You have to seem rather than do on the left. They care.

 

[Max zero]

Cheerleading a Machiavellian government approach then using "ends justifies the means" to deride another?
Interesting.

I'm not trying to claim the moral high ground while doing it. The government is simply taking the less bad option.

Add to that one method has actually worked.

Romeoh is championing an approach that has yet to work anywhere in the world let alone Australia. I'm not sure it even qualifies as an 'ends justifies a means' since it does not even have an 'end' yet. It's simply a means combined with some wishful thinking and desperate hope.

 

[CM86]

Immigration is dangerous...

We don't care if a couple of people die directly under out powers. But we do care about the people who die on their way here.
We don't care about the people who die, that don't flee for their lives, but we do care if they died under the ALP.
We don't care about the people who are still dying on their way here, or after being returned, because our Government has deemed such information a sovereign risk. But we do care about anyone who died during the ALP.
We don't care about the people killed when we went to war on a lie. But we do care about them when they die on their way here.

**** off with the sudo empathy. We know why you agree with the current system.

 

[Danny Cullen]

Bullshit!

You are demanding a fully costed and definitively proven policy, from anyone who thinks we shouldn't be so inhumane to those in our capture.

When did we capture them?

 

[romeoh]

I'm not trying to claim the moral high ground while doing it. The government is simply taking the less bad option.

Add to that one method has actually worked.

Romeoh is championing an approach that has yet to work anywhere in the world let alone Australia. I'm not sure it even qualifies as an 'ends justifies a means' since it does not even have an 'end' yet. It's simply a means combined with some wishful thinking and desperate hope.

Yep, but not quite the same desperate hope that drives these people to leave behind their homeland. They are not going to stop trying to get to a better place. 'Stopping the boats' is just shuttling the problems onto someone else. Why should Pakistan, Jordan, Germany and so on take so much more of their share than others? We are better placed than most to do a bit more lifting. That didn't work-fine try something else. keep trying, work with other countries in our region to find reasonable outcomes for more people. Its not easy but it can be better. Children can be moved into the community instead of in detention centres, for starters. Asylum seekers can go to school here, get jobs whilst waiting to be processed.
The increase in people seeking asylum is at record levels, and yet we continue to pretend its not a world wide, ongoing global issue.
I just find it hard to believe your concerns when ultimately you don't seem to care if people never escape from Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[Max zero]

Bullshit!

You are demanding a fully costed and definitively proven policy, from anyone who thinks we shouldn't be so inhumane to those in our capture.

Given up asking for that. You guys can't even give me a rough outline if what you would do.

Just hand wringing and complaining.

Rudd mk2

 

[Max zero]

Yep, but not quite the same desperate hope that drives these people to leave behind their homeland. They are not going to stop trying to get to a better place. 'Stopping the boats' is just shuttling the problems onto someone else. Why should Pakistan, Jordan, Germany and so on take so much more of their share than others? We are better placed than most to do a bit more lifting. That didn't work-fine try something else. keep trying, work with other countries in our region to find reasonable outcomes for more people. Its not easy but it can be better. Children can be moved into the community instead of in detention centres, for starters. Asylum seekers can go to school here, get jobs whilst waiting to be processed.
The increase in people seeking asylum is at record levels, and yet we continue to pretend its not a world wide, ongoing global issue.
I just find it hard to believe your concerns when ultimately you don't seem to care if people never escape from Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan.

It is a global issue so why are we talking about a new national solution which will do nothing to solve it? We could always do more. Where do you draw the line? There are over 50 million refugees how many do you plan on saving?

 

[Max zero]

Immigration is dangerous...

We don't care if a couple of people die directly under out powers. But we do care about the people who die on their way here.
We don't care about the people who die, that don't flee for their lives, but we do care if they died under the ALP.
We don't care about the people who are still dying on their way here, or after being returned, because our Government has deemed such information a sovereign risk. But we do care about anyone who died during the ALP.
We don't care about the people killed when we went to war on a lie. But we do care about them when they die on their way here.

**** off with the sudo empathy. We know why you agree with the current system.

Sudo empathy eh? Because your 'genuine' empathy was such a success yes?

 

[Max zero]

Global issue means that blood is on the hands of Rudd voters...

Careful when you get off your horse. It's a long way down.

Blood is on everyone's hands. Only some of us acknowledge it though.

Good intentions mean nothing to me I only care about good outcomes.

 

[Max zero]

You've had multiple responses, and some you have agreed with, with some tweaking.
And you've ignored others.

Yeah I agree with PRs and TheCoups. TheCoups's was great for Australia the main issue would be getting Malaysia to accept it. Also responded to romeohs.

Which ones have I ignored?

 

[Max zero]

Again, Bullshit!
You only care about defending the current Government policy.

You mean where I call the current policy the lesser of two evils?

Ringing endorsement indeed.

I'm not endorsing the current policy I just have te crazy idea that if you want to replace policy I would want something that is actually an improvement. Was Rudd's policy an improvement over Howard's?

Change for the sake of change is pointless.

I support actual improvements not comestic changes to salve your concience which actually make the situation worse longterm.

 

[Bosun]

Global issue means that blood is on the hands of Rudd voters...

Careful when you get off your horse. It's a long way down.

Global issue it is, correct Floorpie?

 

[romeoh]

It is a global issue so why are we talking about a new national solution which will do nothing to solve it? We could always do more. Where do you draw the line? There are over 50 million refugees how many do you plan on saving?

Do you think 12-14,000 out of 50 million is doing our fair share?

 

[midorigreenwood]

Do you think 12-14,000 out of 50 million is doing our fair share?

Your side would have better luck convincing the public if you picked a number and tried to make an argument to defend that position.

50k, 100k, etc. At the moment folks like the greens are basically wailing "we should do more" which is an open ended commitment and won't fly with Australians.

The reality is that if you accept one asylum seeker by boat, you're obligated to accept the ten thousandth or the one millionth.

After all, Japan only took in six refugees in 2013.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Have we accepted one asylum seeker? When do you expect the "one millionth"?
Partisan shit...

Thats what happened when Kevin Rudd weakened the pacific solution.

As I mentioned earlier..... EU border control officials are expecting 600k to 1 million people to leave North Africa for Europe this year by boat.

IIRC .....2013 boat arrivals to Italy = around 40k

2014 = around 170k

2015 = ?

Your side has their head in the sand and won't see reality.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Eu =/= Aus.

I don't have a side.
Stop trying to force partisan shit...

Thats because Australia stopped the flow before it became out of control like Europe.

It was around 4200 boat arrivals in July 2013 before Rudd instituted the png solution.

And I never mentioned a political side in my post.. I vote Labor after all (I'm pro NBN on this board)

You're the one bringing up partisan politics.

Your side = refugee advocates

 

[romeoh]

Your side would have better luck convincing the public if you picked a number and tried to make an argument to defend that position.

50k, 100k, etc. At the moment folks like the greens are basically wailing "we should do more" which is an open ended commitment and won't fly with Australians.

The reality is that if you accept one asylum seeker by boat, you're obligated to accept the ten thousandth or the one millionth.

After all, Japan only took in six refugees in 2013.

My side hey-is that the side of the humanitarians?
And so the non-humantitarians would address the situation by taking none?
As I have moved through the world, I have seen that there is nowhere I would rather live than here-what a country. I have also worked out, that those with more can help those with less-that is how any decent community operates.
I also realize that I didn't do anything to get to live here-I lucked out, just like you. Its random.
Your logic-if you accept one boat, you have to accept 10,000-is neither a realistic scenario, nor a logical conclusion.
ps. keep up Japan is in trouble with their population and are considering investing in a large immigration scheme.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Edit: Laughed at your reasoning to why EU is different to Aus.

which proves my point that your side has their head in the sand

My side hey-is that the side of the humanitarians?
And so the non-humantitarians would address the situation by taking none?

straw man. The 12k has been budgeted for.....thats the difference with an open ended commitment.

Your logic-if you accept one boat, you have to accept 10,000-is neither a realistic scenario, nor a logical conclusion.

it is a logical conclusion.

Look what the unlucky asylum seekers in Nauru are saying "wtf, those in christmas island get visas and we get this? its not fair"

If you accept one boat person you're sending a signal for others to try their luck. Their reaction is totally understandable.

At the end of the day a line has to be drawn somewhere.

The only way any immigration program can work is with proper planning ....whether they're refugees or skilled workers.

ps. keep up Japan is in trouble with their population and are considering investing in a large immigration scheme.

ps: Japan will never accept a large immigration scheme. They tried with 2nd generation brazilian japanese but they were largely punted back after the recession.

They're trying something even more drastic. Robot workers.... no joke.

 

[romeoh]

which proves my point that your side has their head in the sand



straw man. The 12k has been budgeted for.....thats the difference with an open ended commitment.



it is a logical conclusion.

Look what the unlucky asylum seekers in Nauru are saying "wtf, those in christmas island get visas and we get this? its not fair"

If you accept one boat person you're sending a signal for others to try their luck. Their reaction is totally understandable.

At the end of the day a line has to be drawn somewhere.

The only way any immigration program can work is with proper planning ....whether they're refugees or skilled workers.
Yep and are you saying that line that has to be drawn -12,000 out of 50 million -its a good place to put the line? Puts us into serious 'lifters'?


ps: Japan will never accept a large immigration scheme. They tried with 2nd generation brazilian japanese but they were largely punted back after the recession.

They're trying something even more drastic. Robot workers.... no joke.

Yep and are you saying that line that has to be drawn -12,000 out of 50 million -its a good place to put the line? Is that seriously the best you think a country like ours can do?

 

[midorigreenwood]

Yeah? Show your working...

Why should I waste my time when I was talking to Romeoh and you still haven't replied to my post

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...en-they-arrive.1033285/page-363#post-37345007

I've already outlined my position many times on this thread all you have to do is google.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Yep and are you saying that line that has to be drawn -12,000 out of 50 million -its a good place to put the line? Is that seriously the best you think a country like ours can do?

Thats my point.

If you think its a pathetic number....... pick one that you can live with

100k whatever.

and then defend your position.

It shouldn't be any different to any policy whether its the NBN or nuclear power.

At the moment ....your side basically has no number and therefore will never convince the public to accept your policies.