List Mgmt. 2016 general list discussion and speculation (cont in Pt.2)

[FredLeDeux]

Doesn't it? You don't think guys who can get out on the ground are worth more than those who can't?

It's not a dichotomy, as you very well know.
We are still better off keeping blokes if the MC thinks they will be successful and if the medical advice is that they will be able to play, than we are punting on Rd 4 and later draft picks who are statistically likely to be a waste of time.
And on that last point, please do not bother with the usual "counting the hits and ignoring the misses".

 

[Partridge]

It's not a dichotomy, as you very well know.
We are still better off keeping blokes if the MC thinks they will be successful and if the medical advice is that they will be able to play, than we are punting on Rd 4 and later draft picks who are statistically likely to be a waste of time.
And on that last point, please do not bother with the usual "counting the hits and ignoring the misses".

Very true. It's not like we took a 4th round pick in 2009 that has only played 4 games in 6 years after all.

Oh that's right, it is.

So it's not worth drafting players in the 4th round now because they're likely to be a waste of time, but it is worth keeping players from the 4th round that have already been a colossal waste of time. That makes sense.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Very true. It's not like we took a 4th round pick in 2009 that has only played 4 games in 6 years after all.

Oh that's right, it is.

So it's not worth drafting players in the 4th round now because they're likely to be a waste of time, but it is worth keeping players from the 4th round that have already been a colossal waste of time. That makes sense.

Good rhetoric. Bad argument, but good rhetoric.

 

[Partridge]

Good rhetoric. Bad argument, but good rhetoric.

Tell me what's incorrect about it.

You're advocating that drafting a 4th round pick is statistically unlikely to succeed, but you want to keep a 4th round pick who has played 4 games in 6 years?

 

[Teriyakicat]

I actually think that comment as reported above is a pretty poor remark by Cook. None of these players want to be injured and laying financial costs at their feet is just not fair. Medical costs are a cost of doing business in this game.

If there is financial problems he should be looking at himself and his commercial people not injured players.

There are legitimate concerns about the number of injured players but would prefer these remarks were made by football dept (if at all).

Cook initially made his comments at a business meeting. He said that the club was carrying a significant amount of LTIs, gave some cost comparisons with other clubs, mentioned reasons why the numbers blow out (needing to pay top up players, paying the difference between each player's insurance and the cost of surgery, etc etc). I would say that he had the approval of the football dept. etc. to use these figures. Things like the fact that it's cost the club something like $2.5 million, more than double what most other clubs are paying. It's just something that you can't budget for when these things pop up out of nowhere (Bartel, Kelly, Duncan, Stanley, etc.), though reducing the amount of repeat offenders would make it easier to stem the bleeding.

http://geelong.starcommunity.com.au/indy/2015-06-05/cats-to-cull-big-injury-list-as-cost-hits-2-5m/

 

[Teriyakicat]

Tell me what's incorrect about it.

You're advocating that drafting a 4th round pick is statistically unlikely to succeed, but you want to keep a 4th round pick who has played 4 games in 6 years?

Cowan has had his Achilles problems fixed. On the advice of medical staff, the club has chosen to retain a player of known talent, rather than to dive back into the murky waters of the 4th round picks of recent drafts. I can't see what the problem is.

 

[Whit3y]

Tell me what's incorrect about it.

You're advocating that drafting a 4th round pick is statistically unlikely to succeed, but you want to keep a 4th round pick who has played 4 games in 6 years?

lol amazing isnt it

you know partridge once they get that geelong jumper on, our opinions of them are hugely enlarged.

ex
4th round pick no no no nogood, waste of pick, what a joke, scott out

once they sign

masterstroke move by wells, will be 200 game player, the next enright, go catters

 

[Partridge]

Cowan has had his Achilles problems fixed. On the advice of medical staff, the club has chosen to retain a player of known talent, rather than to dive back into the murky waters of the 4th round picks of recent drafts. I can't see what the problem is.

That's right. And when his hamstring popped 15 minutes into his comeback game, it was casually excused as 'just' a hamstring. Until it was listed how frequently he has had hamstring injuries, which have not been fixed, and that it isn't 'just' anything.

 

[Teriyakicat]

That's right. And when his hamstring popped 15 minutes into his comeback game, it was casually excused as 'just' a hamstring. Until it was listed how frequently he has had hamstring injuries, which have not been fixed, and that it isn't 'just' anything.

I think the timing of the hamstring issues is important- were they all happening when he had his Achilles problems? If so, then you could be excused for possibly thinking that these might resolve once the Achilles were repaired.

From what I understand, there was a right Achilles problem which was operated on in London in 2014, then a left Achilles problem (muscle/tendon growing into the Achilles) that was operated on in Geelong in mid-2014. Each problem was fixed, they were different issues that appear now to have been resolved, so why would you be blaming the medical staff for not foreseeing ongoing hamstring problems? Those things happen and could very well be because he's been out of the game for so long.

 

[Whit3y]

Perhaps these:

Kersten - has played only a handful of games. Neither of our current stars had been replicating this form early on. Why drop a guy who has yet to gain enough experience? Lunacy.

shroeder, burbury, brown, hamling

all you would say didn't gain enough experience

perhaps they just were not good enough, perhaps kersten ghs and walker will fall into that category, perhaps not

one thing is for sure, some people will get delisted before they get there chance to gain that exp.

 

[thegerman]

shroeder, burbury, brown, hamling

all you would say didn't gain enough experience

perhaps they just were not good enough, perhaps kersten ghs and walker will fall into that category, perhaps not

one thing is for sure, some people will get delisted before they get there chance to gain that exp.

And that's ok, however to say they are no good and delist the lot is a ridiculous statement. My post was merely responding to an ambit claim to delist quite a few players.

You can't delist 10 blokes in a year, that would be suicidal.

 

[Partridge]

I think the timing of the hamstring issues is important- were they all happening when he had his Achilles problems? If so, then you could be excused for possibly thinking that these might resolve once the Achilles were repaired.

From what I understand, there was a right Achilles problem which was operated on in London in 2014, then a left Achilles problem (muscle/tendon growing into the Achilles) that was operated on in Geelong in mid-2014. Each problem was fixed, they were different issues that appear now to have been resolved, so why would you be blaming the medical staff for not foreseeing ongoing hamstring problems? Those things happen and could very well be because he's been out of the game for so long.

I don't blame the medical staff at all.

Going by this, I'd say the hamstrings are at least as big a concern as the Achilles issues:

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/114599/Josh-COWAN

If you look at that, and tell me with a straight face you don't see further hamstring issues ahead, that's just wishful thinking and ignoring reality.

 

[Teriyakicat]

I don't blame the medical staff at all.

Going by this, I'd say the hamstrings are at least as big a concern as the Achilles issues:

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/114599/Josh-COWAN

If you look at that, and tell me with a straight face you don't see further hamstring issues ahead, that's just wishful thinking and ignoring reality.

I don't deny that his hamstrings have been a problem - and I'm glad that you aren't blaming the medical staff - but I questioned firstly if they were related to his Achilles problems and, secondly, if it was the fact that he'd missed so much game time- which may therefore indicate the issue there might diminish with time. If they were a complication of his Achilles issues, then the slate should've been wiped clean after his second surgery. Thus he's really only had problems this year- unrelated to anything else. I'm not sure if I'm explaining my point very well but I am thinking that the stronger he gets because his Achilles are no longer causing problems, the less likely his hamstrings would be to "ping". Maybe Vdubs could tell me if I'm on the right path with that theory.

What would support the retention of Cowan would be his performances when he's been able to play out games. Perhaps rookie-info him may have been an alternative but I would expect the club was feeling very positive about his return after successful surgery late last year, thus didn't go down that path.

 

[Teriyakicat]

And that's ok, however to say they are no good and delist the lot is a ridiculous statement. My post was merely responding to an ambit claim to delist quite a few players.

You can't delist 10 blokes in a year, that would be suicidal.

We delisted 5 at the end of last year, plus 3 rookies (I think) and traded 2. It took the boys almost 10 rounds to work out how to play together. If the nucleus of the team is strong, it can carry a few new faces, however our nucleus has shrunk over the past few years through retirements and injuries, the latter perhaps with more impact than previous years.

 

[dazbroncos]

Which of the listed players do you not agree with?

So you would agree then that matched to the same position in their respective careers, Ling, Scarlett, Enright, Bartel, GAJ, Ottens, should all have been "Doled" as you call it.

There is a point buried in all this im sure of it.

cut anyone you don't like.

got it.

11 changes too.

crazy.

Go Catters

 

[dazbroncos]

I don't blame the medical staff at all.

Going by this, I'd say the hamstrings are at least as big a concern as the Achilles issues:

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/114599/Josh-COWAN

If you look at that, and tell me with a straight face you don't see further hamstring issues ahead, that's just wishful thinking and ignoring reality.

There is no doubt his Achilles issues seemed to be resolved that moved to a hammy issue that has been a repeat issue twice maybe three times.
Could it be a Chappy type issue that took him out like his last year here or like his first year at Esssendon where he played 16 games.

Chappy had the runs on the board no doubt but hammy's can be a consistent issue and then come good. They can also stay crap. Its unlikely that anyone knows which way it will go.

GO Catters

 

[jnrburger]

Let's try this.....

Outs: Enright, Rivers, McIntosh, Kelly, Simpson, Hartman, Toohey, Delaney, Cowan
FA ins: Dangerfield, S Selwood
Trade first 4 draft picks this year: Henderson (1 to blues), McKenzie (2 to Suns), O'Shea (3 to port), Gawn (4 to dees)
1 late round pick / PSD
2 rookie picks (could use one to redraft Cowan - maybe)

Vardy, Menzel and McCarthy to play for their careers in 2016 as the final chance

End 2016 - retirements of Bartel, Johnson, Mackie, Stokes to be replaced with four draft picks (building the next generation), with the Lonergan retirement to be covered by Schofield as FA end next year

There we go, transition complete and next premiership window wide open!

 

[Snow]

Let's try this.....

Outs: Enright, Rivers, McIntosh, Kelly, Simpson, Hartman, Toohey, Delaney, Cowan
FA ins: Dangerfield, S Selwood
Trade first 4 draft picks this year: Henderson (1 to blues), McKenzie (2 to Suns), O'Shea (3 to port), Gawn (4 to dees)
1 late round pick / PSD
2 rookie picks (could use one to redraft Cowan - maybe)

Vardy, Menzel and McCarthy to play for their careers in 2016 as the final chance

End 2016 - retirements of Bartel, Johnson, Mackie, Stokes to be replaced with four draft picks (building the next generation), with the Lonergan retirement to be covered by Schofield as FA end next year

There we go, transition complete and next premiership window wide open!

Like your post but McKenzie imo is worth more than a second. Gcs would want more.

 

[fpm84]

Trade first 4 draft picks this year: Henderson (1 to blues), McKenzie (2 to Suns), O'Shea (3 to port), Gawn (4 to dees)

Max Gawn for a fourth round pick? Melbourne would laugh in our faces.

 

[catman54]

Let's try this.....

Outs: Enright, Rivers, McIntosh, Kelly, Simpson, Hartman, Toohey, Delaney, Cowan
FA ins: Dangerfield, S Selwood
Trade first 4 draft picks this year: Henderson (1 to blues), McKenzie (2 to Suns), O'Shea (3 to port), Gawn (4 to dees)
1 late round pick / PSD
2 rookie picks (could use one to redraft Cowan - maybe)

Vardy, Menzel and McCarthy to play for their careers in 2016 as the final chance

End 2016 - retirements of Bartel, Johnson, Mackie, Stokes to be replaced with four draft picks (building the next generation), with the Lonergan retirement to be covered by Schofield as FA end next year

There we go, transition complete and next premiership window wide open!

I hope someone gives you a shake: man your dreamin!!

 

[Teriyakicat]

Let's try this.....

Outs: Enright, Rivers, McIntosh, Kelly, Simpson, Hartman, Toohey, Delaney, Cowan
FA ins: Dangerfield, S Selwood
Trade first 4 draft picks this year: Henderson (1 to blues), McKenzie (2 to Suns), O'Shea (3 to port), Gawn (4 to dees)
1 late round pick / PSD
2 rookie picks (could use one to redraft Cowan - maybe)

Vardy, Menzel and McCarthy to play for their careers in 2016 as the final chance

End 2016 - retirements of Bartel, Johnson, Mackie, Stokes to be replaced with four draft picks (building the next generation), with the Lonergan retirement to be covered by Schofield as FA end next year

There we go, transition complete and next premiership window wide open!

Well, that was ambitious!

 

[cats_09]

Let's try this.....

Outs: Enright, Rivers, McIntosh, Kelly, Simpson, Hartman, Toohey, Delaney, Cowan
FA ins: Dangerfield, S Selwood
Trade first 4 draft picks this year: Henderson (1 to blues), McKenzie (2 to Suns), O'Shea (3 to port), Gawn (4 to dees)
1 late round pick / PSD
2 rookie picks (could use one to redraft Cowan - maybe)

Vardy, Menzel and McCarthy to play for their careers in 2016 as the final chance

End 2016 - retirements of Bartel, Johnson, Mackie, Stokes to be replaced with four draft picks (building the next generation), with the Lonergan retirement to be covered by Schofield as FA end next year

There we go, transition complete and next premiership window wide open!

How exactly do we add Dangerfield, S. Selwood, Henderson & McKenzie at the end of this year and stay under the salary cap next year?

Also - you need to have 3 ND picks, and based on your suggestions we only have 1, so we would be in breach of the rules and either not recruit 2 FAs and 4 via trades, or delist/retire 2 more players off our senior list.

 

[Turbocat]

How exactly do we add Dangerfield, S. Selwood, Henderson & McKenzie at the end of this year and stay under the salary cap next year?

Also - you need to have 3 ND picks, and based on your suggestions we only have 1, so we would be in breach of the rules and either not recruit 2 FAs and 4 via trades, or delist/retire 2 more players off our senior list.

On the 3 picks... you can use Rookie promotions to counter that.. I think you must have two min... but I think GC actually on had 1 real pick in 2011 , but it was complicated with zone picks as well.

 

[The rabbi]

My expected list changes at end of year:

dole queue:
Cowan (injured, low talent)
menzel (body gone)
simpson (just a dumb footballer. Mark Blake mkII)
mcintosh (old, cooked, done)
kerstan (lacks the heart)
Hartman (walkabouts)
Delaney (injured)
blease (must close his eyes everytime he kicks)
Jenson (horrible at vfl level, maybe if a bell was attached to the ball he would be able to find it more. 10 touches a game not good enough, GFL at best)
Trade: Walker for pick 195, GHS for pick 207

And please get their frigg'n names right.
It is Jansen not Jenson and Kersten not Kerstan.

And for what it is worth, unless they desire to be traded, I think that both the above players will remain at the club next year.

 

[The rabbi]

Cowan has had his Achilles problems fixed. On the advice of medical staff, the club has chosen to retain a player of known talent, rather than to dive back into the murky waters of the 4th round picks of recent drafts. I can't see what the problem is.

He may be over his Achillies issues but he still seems to have Hamstring problems that hinder him.