List Mgmt. 2016 general list discussion and speculation (cont in Pt.2)

[Baudolino]

All of the hawks mids are elite kickers of the ball, baring Mitchell but he never kicks it anyway. I'm not sure any in our list fit that criteria. Duncan probably closest but has had his games where he is a big turn merchant as well.

Champion Data rank both Mitch Duncan and Cam Guthrie among the top six ball users by foot across the entire competition. I posted an afl.com.au Inquirer article about this to the Champion Data thread a month or so ago. You can scroll down to the bottom of the piece to find the relevant statistics:

Very interesting Inquirer piece today on the AFL website appraising the best and worst field kicks in the competition using a statistic known as "kicking ratings". While kicking and disposal efficiency - statistics most of us are familiar with - simply measure the percentage of times a kick reaches it's intended target, kicking ratings provide a more nuanced assessment of a player's footskills by measuring how they use the ball by foot relative to expectation according to many factors taken in to account by Champion Data such as distance, direction, target type and pressure. So a player able to regularly hit difficult targets under pressure will have a high kicking rating. It's a shame this data isn't fully available to the public as it would furnish us with much better tools that we currently have with which to analyse kicking skill.

Sidenote: this infographic confirms my opinions about Duncan, Guthrie and Walker.

 

[Whit3y]

can anyone seriously see walker or kersten or ghs playing in a elite team

today we saw the level we need to be at, and im sorry but we have some guys in our team that will never get to that level

 

[Baudolino]

Yeah Duncan's our one midfielder that I expect to hit targets every time. Need more than one though.

See my post above. Guthrie has outstanding footskills as well.

But yes, I agree with the general sentiment of what you're saying. Even with both Duncan and Guthrie rated among the competition's elite ball users, we certainly need greater depth in that particular arena.

 

[CatsDoItBetter]

Hopefully the terrible tragedy that occurred today can be soon put to the back of the mind. Here's hoping the cats off season is as good as it can be. Now the grand final is out of the way we will soon be a lot wiser about our playing list for next year. I think we still have a lot to be excited about as cats fans.

 

[Claude Balls]

As catempire said, it doesn't look like anyone else is fit to stop Hawthorn. Certainly, a conveyor belt of overawed/inexperienced interstate bunnies will simply continue to hand them premierships given they are the best recruiters/list-managers these days.

 

[Partridge]

can anyone seriously see walker or kersten or ghs playing in a elite team

today we saw the level we need to be at, and im sorry but we have some guys in our team that will never get to that level

Honest answer is no, maybe and yes. Forget those three, we've got plenty more in our regular team that are every bit as questionable.

 

[BIGANT]

As catempire said, it doesn't look like anyone else is fit to stop Hawthorn. Certainly, a conveyor belt of overawed/inexperienced interstate bunnies will simply continue to hand them premierships given they are the best recruiters/list-managers these days.

I'd say port but wouldn't be wonderful see us do em. Mitch tick...mots tick waant cad's uh ha we'll be chance. Is danger the one for us to be t4 next yr

 

[Leeds17]

Cats Midfield vs Hawks Midfield 2016:

Hawks - Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Smith, Burgoyne, Shiels.

Cats - Selwood, Duncan, Dangerfield, Caddy, Motlop, Guthrie.

#Juicy

Understand what you are saying & I don't want this to seem like Scott bashing but Hawthorn's system is light years ahead of ours, personal is of course extremely important but the philosophy and buy into that philosophy is more important.

 

[Claude Balls]

Understand what you are saying & I don't want this to seem like Scott bashing but Hawthorn's system is light years ahead of ours, personal is of course extremely important but the philosophy and buy into that philosophy is more important.

It is, no doubt. And it doesn't even have anything to do with Scott, rather, one M. Thompson.

I freely admit that part of my distaste for this Hawthorn outfit, and my campaign to diminish its value, is that their club - coach, admin whatever - did what the Geelong brains trust couldn't do. They got the best out of the playing group and made the most of their opportunities.

Geelong, relative to this hawthorn outfit, underachieved in a big way. 2008 was and will always be a unmitigated disaster. They were hell bent on winning every despite being miles clear at the top of the ladder, and took complacency and injured players into the big dance. Then, in 2010, the players wouldn't "buy in", as Bomber put it, into what the coaches were telling them about the need to change their game plan. Colingwood's gameplan was devised entirely to counteract Geelong's.

Should have got 4 flags out of that lot. While in comparison, in many other eras, or even with just an ounce less good fortune with regards to injuries etc, this Hawthorn mob would have won only 2.

 

[Daniel McL]

Understand what you are saying & I don't want this to seem like Scott bashing but Hawthorn's system is light years ahead of ours, personal is of course extremely important but the philosophy and buy into that philosophy is more important.

It's not Scott bashing I understand.
Just players take a while to understand & buy into the philosophy, I think all players in the team have as it showed by the amount of re-signings we had this year, it's just that other teams & their philosophies were better than ours & more experienced.
I'm only basing that midfield battle based on the develop those younger individual guys showed throughout the year & just hoping they all have a full pre-season & we get Dangerfield & hope with natural progression we will get better.
Then I just hope all the Hawks players break their legs in Round 1...

 

[corio bay]

As catempire said, it doesn't look like anyone else is fit to stop Hawthorn. Certainly, a conveyor belt of overawed/inexperienced interstate bunnies will simply continue to hand them premierships given they are the best recruiters/list-managers these days.

reckon the doggies will be up and about next year - they've got a good young list and play a finals winning brand of footy

 

[Seeds]

Champion Data rank both Mitch Duncan and Cam Guthrie among the top six ball users by foot across the entire competition. I posted an afl.com.au Inquirer article about this to the Champion Data thread a month or so ago. You can scroll down to the bottom of the piece to find the relevant statistics:

Not in finals games they aint. In our last couple of finals games Guthrie and Duncan have had shockers with disposal. Hawthorn players just don't do that. Hawthorn are so far ahead of disposal accuracy it aint funny. Its the only reason they win and we are trying to follow the opposite path by getting good ball winners but pretty shoddy disposers of the ball.

 

[steady2]

can anyone seriously see walker or kersten or ghs playing in a elite team

today we saw the level we need to be at, and im sorry but we have some guys in our team that will never get to that level

Kersten I'm unsure about. I don't know if the other two are best 22, but there will always be injuries and they will get games as depth players.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Not in finals games they aint. In our last couple of finals games Guthrie and Duncan have had shockers with disposal. Hawthorn players just don't do that. Hawthorn are so far ahead of disposal accuracy it aint funny. Its the only reason they win and we are trying to follow the opposite path by getting good ball winners but pretty shoddy disposers of the ball.

I don't know why you would think their finals games were particularly bad, Seeds- unless you are remembering some actual clangers- because their disposal efficiency numbers in finals over the past couple of years aren't too bad (yeah, they've had some rotten finals but more good than bad, from what I can see). Guthrie's worst game for DE would be vs North last year, while Duncan was poor v Hawks the previous year.

Here are Duncan's DE% numbers in last year's finals:

86.4% v Hawks,
80% v North Melb;

While Guthrie's DE% was:

72% v Hawks
58.3% v North

 

[GFrost]

Richmond officially pulled out of pursuing Bennell. Herald Sun suggesting he may have missed a scheduled medical.
Good luck to the team that gets him.

 

[Mahlepi]

Richmond officially pulled out of pursuing Bennell. Herald Sun suggesting he may have missed a scheduled medical.
Good luck to the team that gets him.

glyon say him at eve at 4am the other day - interesting that gramps is out that late and bennell keeping a low profile

 

[Mahlepi]

Honest answer is no, maybe and yes. Forget those three, we've got plenty more in our regular team that are every bit as questionable.

however who would have thought lake, spangher, shoenmakers, simpkin etc would be in a premiership team

 

[Mahlepi]

we need chaotic forward pressure, we dont get enough forward pressure out of our current forwards
kersten is a good kick but doesnt get involved enough when he doesnt have the ball
rioli's pressure is immense, and thats what we lack
pressure is not skill based, need that mongrel type and desperate type

 

[Bobby_]

we need chaotic forward pressure, we dont get enough forward pressure out of our current forwards
kersten is a good kick but doesnt get involved enough when he doesnt have the ball
rioli's pressure is immense, and thats what we lack

we don't lack that though. We have players on the list who have just as much natural speed as Rioli but they aren't being coached to pressure or harass as you say.
Motlop is eye candy when he has the ball but you watch him without the ball and he's disengaged. Murdoch, Cockatoo are two explosive runners who could be trained to harass, pressure and do all the basic one percenter acts but will they get coached to do that?

Ross Lyon uses Walters, Ballantyne and Mayne like that. He likes them to be more constructive without the ball than actually with it.

 

[Mahlepi]

we don't lack that though. We have players on the list who have just as much natural speed as Rioli but they aren't being coached to pressure or harass as you say.
Motlop is eye candy when he has the ball but you watch him without the ball and he's disengaged. Murdoch, Cockatoo are two explosive runners who could be trained to harass, pressure and do all the basic one percenter acts but will they get coached to do that?

Ross Lyon uses Walters, Ballantyne and Mayne like that. He likes them to be more constructive without the ball than actually with it.

but they have mongrel, our three dont

 

[Art Vandelay_]

but they have mongrel, our three dont

Fair enough for the first two but a bit harsh on cocky. He's still finding his feet. Give him at least another 20-40 games before making that judgement.

 

[Cataholic]

I have been on forced leave from too many threads
It might explain my posting frequency

Fair enough

 

[Mahlepi]

Fair enough for the first two but a bit harsh on cocky. He's still finding his feet. Give him at least another 20-40 games before making that judgement.

i think will be a great offensive weapon, not a natural defender

 

[Eudes]

we don't lack that though. We have players on the list who have just as much natural speed as Rioli but they aren't being coached to pressure or harass as you say.
Motlop is eye candy when he has the ball but you watch him without the ball and he's disengaged. Murdoch, Cockatoo are two explosive runners who could be trained to harass, pressure and do all the basic one percenter acts but will they get coached to do that?

Ross Lyon uses Walters, Ballantyne and Mayne like that. He likes them to be more constructive without the ball than actually with it.

I'm sorry Bobby but effort and that manic pressure isn't a skill you can coach. You either have it or you don't.

Do you honestly think the coaches don't tell them to put pressure on? To just let teams run out of our F50 with no frontal pressure? Highly doubt it.

I also disagree with putting Cocky in that mix. He runs, chases and tries as hard as anyone out there. Just young and needs to learn positioning. Also runs out of puff

 

[MoggsCreek]

i think will be a great offensive weapon, not a natural defender

I really rated some of his efforts in the preseason game against Gold Coast, his repeat efforts were great. And same in the final game against the crows, think he caught a couple holding the ball with his explosive speed and great tackling technique. I definitely think he has more potential in this area than Motlop and Murdoch.