Richmond to win a final in 2017

[TheCoach16]

No way am I getting banned again! Not for this mob.

So no comment...

 

[SdKfz 181]

Mate it's clear as day Richmond needs a new coach and direction. Their list looks bad because Dimma has them playing the worst brand of football this side of Freo. Just look at Carlton and the Bulldogs to see how quickly a team can turn around with a fresh start.

Well that's not going to happen now is it, unfortunately he will see out his contract.

 

[Ron The Bear]

By 'critical analysis' you mean 'look only at age' as if it is the be all and end all

Never mind he had the worst forward line in the league to star.t with, has had a complete lack of decent senior KPP's (Rowe, Jamison, Casboult...lol), and was widely tipped (despite the age of the list!!) to be competing with the suspension affected Bombers for the spoon.

But because our average age is 25 years and 2 months or something instead of 24 years and 6 months Bolton can't coach

Mate I'm sick to death of having Carlton thrown in my face as an example to aspire to. But this thread isn't about Carlton.

If you want to go on with it, come back to me with your list of the half dozen biggest improvers at Carlton this year and we'll go from there. Cripps? Won the b&f last year. Docherty? We knew he was a talent. Simpson, the 32yo de facto skipper? Gibbs? Armfield? Who among the 21-25yo's has the '150-gamer' stamp? The Irishman Byrne, maybe, at a stretch? All of Carlton's wins came in a six-week period, on the back of established players. Can understand Bolts coming in and wanting to give everyone a clean slate but ****in' spare me with this "Carlton have gone past you" rubbish!

My rule-of-thumb table:

Club|Age Rank|Ladder|Comment
\NM|1st|8th| FAIL
\Ha|2nd|1st|
\Ge|3rd|4th|
\WC|4th|6th|
\Fr|5th|16th| FAIL
\Ca|6th|15th| FAIL
\Es|7th|18th| FAIL*
\St|8th|10th|
\Sy|9th|2nd|
\Ad|10th|3rd|
\Ri|11th|13th|
\GWS|12th|5th|
\PA|13th|11th|
\WB|14th|7th|
\Co|15th|12th|
\GC|16th|14th|
\Br|17th|17th|
\Me|18th|9th|

 

[Footy Smarts]

To what end? He has maybe 1-2 years of serviceable footy left at best. IMO we have two options

- abandon the supposed "Geelong-style" pay hierarchy and stop lowballing potential recruits - open the chequebook and sign 2 or 3 quality players with plenty of miles left on the clock via trade/free agency for an immediate boost, e.g. Prestia
- go to the draft as a fallback position

Acquisitions need to benefit us in the longer term. Cloke doesn't do that. He's suited to a team who'll contend in 2017.

Do Richmond seriously think they've got a pay system similar to Geelong? Geelong's top 5 of Selwood, Dangerfield, Taylor, Enright and Hawkins stood up when the game needed to be won on Sunday. Richmond's top 5 (bar Rance) went MIA yet I'd bet the Richmond group would be paid far more coin. If you followed the Geelong pay model where you get paid based on actual output you'd be lucky to fill half the cap.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Do Richmond seriously think they've got a pay system similar to Geelong? Geelong's top 5 of Selwood, Dangerfield, Taylor, Enright and Hawkins stood up when the game needed to be won on Sunday. Richmond's top 5 (bar Rance) went MIA yet I'd bet the Richmond group would be paid far more coin. If you followed the Geelong pay model where you get paid based on actual output you'd be lucky to fill half the cap.

I can't find the article where it was mentioned, but c.2013 the players were addressed and told (salary) sacrifices need to be made to achieve team success, which goes for prospective recruits also. Geelong was held up as an example.

No real argument with your post. I'd argue that our top players are performing most weeks, but the support cast isn't strong enough to allow them to be matchwinners on a regular basis.

My suspicion is that we've overpaid to keep our top players. Martin will have his hand out for an increase and who can blame him? I don't buy that Deledio signed on for 500K when GWS was throwing $1m at him. Also suspect this salary structure is chiefly responsible for the failure to acquire the players we need. Our hat's been in the ring, we've been playing finals, but no fish to show for it.

Only Matt White among required players has elected to leave under Hardwick's tenure, and even then the decision came down to length of contract. It's such a happy club, but now a harsh spotlight needs to be trained on points of failure. Far from convinced that "AFL approved" Dan Richardson is the great negotiator the club promotes him as.

Go back to the NAB Cup match v Port when Hardwick panicked and wanted to call the game off after a spate of injuries. He knew the list was stretched entering the season. The club has failed him in not bolstering the top or middle tiers in the past two years.

All of the above needs to be balanced with the fact we were down on our arses when Hardwick began. To come from absolute rock bottom at the beginning of 2010 to finals in 2013 while fielding Gold Coast-aged teams in the face of compromised drafts, was a stupendous effort. It wasn't too long ago that the Bulldogs cited Richmond as an example they wanted to follow. But since the EF loss to Carlton we've more or less stagnated prior to tumbling in 2016. The loss of momentum coincided with Gale eyeing off Demetriou's job and the 'compromise' choice of president. Honesty and transparency has been replaced by spin. The external review must be brutally honest and the admin needs to recapture the energy they had when they began in late 2009, or get out.

 

[footyfan1978]

This a new comedy tv series for 2017 ?

 

[PerfectFooty]

I can believe that honestly, i'm not saying they are a sure thing, but they could be back next year or not. Who knows? Sometimes the wheels fall off but then they bounce back next season. Trust me when we were under Daniher we were up and down like a yoyo. Finals in 98, none in 99. GF in 2000, none in 01. Finals in 02, none in 03. Then 04 and 05 of win-less finals before a win in 06. So if asked if richmond wouldn't or would make finals in 2017, i don't believe it is beyond them. But at the end of the day we can only wait and see

 

[Jeremias]

Mate I'm sick to death of having Carlton thrown in my face as an example to aspire to. But this thread isn't about Carlton.

Bizarre comment given you are the one who raised Carlton in this thread.

 

[Football Tragic]

This a new comedy tv series for 2017 ?

Yes its called Carlton Drafting/Trading - A wacky adventure of No. 1 draft picks and losing stars to opposition clubs! - not to be missed

 

[DrEvil_]

Yes its called Carlton Drafting/Trading - A wacky adventure of No. 1 draft picks and losing stars to opposition clubs! - not to be missed

Come on now, do we need to raise Richmond's drafting/trading records?

 

[MotleyLemon]

Come on now, do we need to raise Richmond's drafting/trading records?

Remarkable isn't it? Richmond supporters pointing and laughing at Carlton despite Carlton having a far better finals record in the AFL era.

 

[juss]

Do Richmond seriously think they've got a pay system similar to Geelong? Geelong's top 5 of Selwood, Dangerfield, Taylor, Enright and Hawkins stood up when the game needed to be won on Sunday. Richmond's top 5 (bar Rance) went MIA yet I'd bet the Richmond group would be paid far more coin. If you followed the Geelong pay model where you get paid based on actual output you'd be lucky to fill half the cap.

Richmond would be paying probably 95-100% of the cap, the thing is, that's largely based on an AFL rule, plenty of worse sides than Richmond would be playing similar amounts. That's unfortunately the benefit the players have been able to negotiate. The 40 or so players at Melbourne during their darkest years would have made buttloads of money way above their actual value.

 

[Football Tragic]

Come on now, do we need to raise Richmond's drafting/trading records?

In the last 15 years we have drafted and traded well. Few players have voluntarily left the club and our record with our first choice in the draft has been very good. Carlton on the other hand have lost Betts, Kennedy, Garlett, Henderson, etc and selected good to honest toilers with their No 1 draft picks - Murphy, Gibbs and Kruezer. So yes if a Carlton supporters wants to jest about our chances of making the finals next year from their glasshouse then I'm happy to call the pot black too

 

[Football Tragic]

Remarkable isn't it? Richmond supporters pointing and laughing at Carlton despite Carlton having a far better finals record in the AFL era.

Really only a flag can be an indicator of success making the finals or even winning a few of them are still failures. In recent years Carlton hasn't even looked like making the finals and the year they did have a finals win from ninth position actually set them back in draft order and the subsequent difficulty of their draw. So even though I wasn't referring to finals but rather recent drafting/trading - Carlton is no pinup boy for finals or any other type of success lately no more than Richmond's recent finals appearances are - failure's one and all.

 

[Tiger2709]

Remarkable isn't it? Richmond supporters pointing and laughing at Carlton despite Carlton having a far better finals record in the AFL era.

We beat them four to two in Grand Finals and have one more flag than your team and yes I've seen my team win more flags than you have, so we will laugh when we want to thanks

 

[Tiger2709]

This a new comedy tv series for 2017 ?

No, I think they decided to stick with Carlton, a rebuild with 28 years olds is just to funny too miss.

 

[Tiger2709]

Come on now, do we need to raise Richmond's drafting/trading records?

Any club that can get a 1st and 3rd rounder for Tambling can't be all that bad?

 

[Ron The Bear]

Bizarre comment given you are the one who raised Carlton in this thread.

Was responding to a post that said "Just look at Carlton [as an example of what can be achieved]". But you're correct, it's poor taste to be critical while Bolts is still on his honeymoon.

 

[Blue1980]

By 'critical analysis' you mean 'look only at age' as if it is the be all and end all

Never mind he had the worst forward line in the league to star.t with, has had a complete lack of decent senior KPP's (Rowe, Jamison, Casboult...lol), and was widely tipped (despite the age of the list!!) to be competing with the suspension affected Bombers for the spoon.

But because our average age is 25 years and 2 months or something instead of 24 years and 6 months Bolton can't coach

Apparently some Richmond fans thought we were a top 4 lock and consider this year a success for finishing higher on the ladder than us.

Can't wait until next season when our average as is younger than Richmond's and I will be able to excuse all poor performances on this very fact.

 

[Blue1980]

Mate I'm sick to death of having Carlton thrown in my face as an example to aspire to. But this thread isn't about Carlton.

If you want to go on with it, come back to me with your list of the half dozen biggest improvers at Carlton this year and we'll go from there. Cripps? Won the b&f last year. Docherty? We knew he was a talent. Simpson, the 32yo de facto skipper? Gibbs? Armfield? Who among the 21-25yo's has the '150-gamer' stamp? The Irishman Byrne, maybe, at a stretch? All of Carlton's wins came in a six-week period, on the back of established players. Can understand Bolts coming in and wanting to give everyone a clean slate but ****in' spare me with this "Carlton have gone past you" rubbish!

My rule-of-thumb table:

Club|Age Rank|Ladder|Comment
\NM|1st|8th| FAIL
\Ha|2nd|1st|
\Ge|3rd|4th|
\WC|4th|6th|
\Fr|5th|16th| FAIL
\Ca|6th|15th| FAIL
\Es|7th|18th| FAIL*
\St|8th|10th|
\Sy|9th|2nd|
\Ad|10th|3rd|
\Ri|11th|13th|
\GWS|12th|5th|
\PA|13th|11th|
\WB|14th|7th|
\Co|15th|12th|
\GC|16th|14th|
\Br|17th|17th|
\Me|18th|9th|

I would agree we haven't gone past Richmond, recent weeks have shown how far off the pace we are, it's a miracle we won 6 games.

Age in and of itself is way too simplistic look at things, if anything the above table shows there isn't that much coalition with age and ladder position. 4 of the top 8 sides are outside the top 8 for average age.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

I hate pissing comps and this thread is turning out to be one. The fact is that every year the 8 changes, and usually in an unpredictable way.

Richmond just like almost every other team can possibly make the 8. History shows this.

It's what brings back supporters of all clubs.

 

[Ron The Bear]

I would agree we haven't gone past Richmond, recent weeks have shown how far off the pace we are, it's a miracle we won 6 games.

Age in and of itself is way too simplistic look at things, if anything the above table shows there isn't that much coalition with age and ladder position. 4 of the top 8 sides are outside the top 8 for average age.

Agree it's simplistic and not foolproof, but it's usually a reliable indicator. Those four finalists are simply ahead of the development curve with respect to the rest. That table is irregular compared with previous years, due partly to the ladder being in a state of flux at the end of the compromised draft era as older clubs battle to retain their share of the quality free agent market needed to maintain their positions.

This table from 2011 is more typical:

Club|Age Rank|Ladder
\Ge|1st|2nd
\St|2nd|6th
\Sy|3rd|7th
\Co|4th|1st
\Ha|5th|3rd
\WB|6th|10th
\Ca|7th|5th
\Fr|8th|11th
\WC|9th|4th
\NM|10th|9th
\PA|11th|16th
\Es|12th|8th
\Br|13th|15th
\Ad|14th|14th
\Me|15th|13th
\Ri|16th|12th
\GC|17th|17th

Been potted many times on this forum for expressing such perspectives, so go ahead and join the queue!

 

[rooboy29]

I'm not sure why Richmond are being written off so hard. This years been shit but it's not like they're a bottom side with a heap of retirees. Their core is still a long way off retirement. Cotchin, Martin, Rance, Riewoldt aren't nearing the end and Deledio didnt play much this year.

They have holes in their list but those same holes were there last year, where they won 15 games. Not saying they will, but there's no reason they can't improve next year. I think most on bigfooty are incapable of viewing teams as anything other than "on the way up" or "on the way down". If you go through the ladder prediction threads the predicted improvers are always the ones that improved in the previous season, and vice versa.



We hear this line of thought every year, and it's always wrong. This time last year Freo were premiership favourites. Their spot in the 8 wasn't looking vulnerable. Going into 2015 Port's spot in the 8 looked absolutely guaranteed. You don't get bonus points for making the finals the previous year. Everybody starts again on zero.

Sometimes it doesn't take much to regenerate a side! If you have some quality to start with a few kids can come in and play a role things can turn around! Only have to look at Sydney bulldogs as examples over the last 2 years

 

[emuboy]

I think there's more chance of Harold Holt riding Shergar down Swanston Street on his way to watch a game between Fitzroy and the Brisbane Bears.

 

[chunkylover53]

In the last 15 years we have drafted and traded well. Few players have voluntarily left the club and our record with our first choice in the draft has been very good. Carlton on the other hand have lost Betts, Kennedy, Garlett, Henderson, etc and selected good to honest toilers with their No 1 draft picks - Murphy, Gibbs and Kruezer. So yes if a Carlton supporters wants to jest about our chances of making the finals next year from their glasshouse then I'm happy to call the pot black too

Lol drafted and traded well. Your big fish was Chris Yarran.