Hawthorn FC worst nightmare the 2017 Draft

[Lana]

It was also about ensuring that 2 long term servants of the club got to go where they wanted to go without having to enter the draft..Geelong did same a few years accepting the relatively pointless 90 pick from St Kilda to ensure Steven King got there.

That was more to get Gardiner off our books, King was the price we paid.

 

[Gavin Excell]

That was more to get Gardiner off our books, King was the price we paid.

But the club didn't have to trade for the pick for King to go to the Saints. Could have just cut him surely

 

[Gavin Excell]

why is that mutually exclusive?

Because im assuming in Mitchells case at least, west coast werent prepared to offer a draft pick if any note.

 

[threesixpio]

Hawthorn only ever said Lewis was a required player when it became apparent that Melbourne had backpedalled on their earlier offer of a higher pick. When Hawthorn said "well he's a required player then" Pickering ran to the media and they story broke.
"Hawthorn are trying to trade Jordan Lewis to Melbourne, but now say he's a required player!".

Anyway, you want to harp on about Mitchell and Lewis leaving like they'd have anything to do with our rebuild...and yet Lewis has looked decidedly average this year, and Mitchell is being spoken of as retiring in WA news today.

http://www.watoday.com.au/afl/west-...es-fragile-flag-campaign-20170612-gwp6k1.html

Q: How could you move on Sammy and Lewis - your midfield now only has Tom and Shiels? Way to treat your older champions!

A: We also have Hodge and Burgers going through there

Q: Aww but they're old - they'll retire soon

 

[threesixpio]

Because im assuming in Mitchells case at least, west coast werent prepared to offer a draft pick if any note.

It was a retirement package and yes you're right GE - club's looking after long servants of their club is actually pretty noble

 

[HeHateMe]

Nice story...pity it doesnt actually align with articles and updates coming out of Hawthorn themselves during the trade period.

Reported that Clarko approached Mitchell and Lewis independently to tell them to explore their options.

Came as a shock to Lewis, so his manager then spoke to the Dees. Melbourne were receptive.

When Slug announced he was going, Lewis was told he was a required player and Wright came out confirming he wasnt going anywhere.

But the wheels were in motion, Melbourne decided Lewis was worthy of a 3 year deal, and when Hawthorn were not prepared to extend his contract he was gone.

The Hawks didnt want to lose both of them, but had no interest in extending Lewis' contract.

So Lewis looked after himself and demanded to be traded to Melbourne.

The Hawks could hardly play hardball when it was Clarkson himself who got the ball rolling with his impromptu chat about his footballing mortality.

So end up with top2 in the BnF out the door for peanuts...complete balls up.

Was a good read wasnt it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Lana]

But the club didn't have to trade for the pick for King to go to the Saints. Could have just cut him surely

Gardiner was contracted and on decent coin relative to his output and we had salary cap issues. To get him off our list we traded him to St Kilda with King for pick 90. If Gardiner wasn't involved in the trade we would have gotten more than pick 90 for King.

If we delisted King any club could have picked him up which is why St Kilda was willing to trade for him.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

LOL Melbourne never offered a high pick for Lewis, that's just delusional

 

[Richo83]

I've read a few hawks fans dismiss the loss of a first round draft pick with the old "lots of clubs misuse them anyway". Well lots of companies and governments waste money too, that doesn't mean that money isn't valuable, but the value of it is related to its usage. I also hear talk about free agency which makes me wonder why Hawthorn didn't wait for it to start in earnest.

Hawthorn's midfield is fairly slow, and even with O'Meara, it lacks a bit of depth. You've got O'Meara, Mitchell, Shiels, Langford and Burgoyne. Maybe Smith but he shifts between midfield and forwardline. Burgoyne is inconsistent and is nearly 35. Langford is inconsistent and isn't a great kick. Shiels is a good depth player but needs more support. Mitchell is a very good inside midfielder but lacks a bit of pace and polish with his kicking, and until O'Mears gets recovers from injury, so does he.

They gave away two picks last year that could have been used to stock up on midfielders and this early pick could have been used to bring in some talent. Given Hawthorn built its premierships on the back of having many early picks, I find the apathy towards losing draft picks fairly strange.

Gary Buckenara said on fox footy that Hawthorn decided to trade up to get Lewis, so the club knows the value of early picks. The O'Meara trade runs against that philosophy. In general, the best trades are trades for need, but its dangerous to trade for midfielders given they're generally fairly expensive. Richmond are getting criticised for trading for Prestia, but the pick was not unprotected, Richmond didn't trade away two other picks to get him and Prestia's injury issues aren't nearly as bad. That said, the jury is rightly out on that trade. And the jury is right to be out on the O'Meara trade.

It's also ideal to trade when you have most of your list developed, but it's clear now that Hawthorn overestimated how developed its list is.

All this proves is that the club is made up of humans and like any well run side, like New England, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc they make mistakes.

 

[Richo83]

The Lewis and Mitchell trades weren't handled well, but it's not the first time teams have stuffed up trade week.

 

[Pessimistic]

I've read a few hawks fans dismiss the loss of a first round draft pick with the old "lots of clubs misuse them anyway". Well lots of companies and governments waste money too, that doesn't mean that money isn't valuable, but the value of it is related to its usage. I also hear talk about free agency which makes me wonder why Hawthorn didn't wait for it to start in earnest.

Hawthorn's midfield is fairly slow, and even with O'Meara, it lacks a bit of depth. You've got O'Meara, Mitchell, Shiels, Langford and Burgoyne. Maybe Smith but he shifts between midfield and forwardline. Burgoyne is inconsistent and is nearly 35. Langford is inconsistent and isn't a great kick. Shiels is a good depth player but needs more support. Mitchell is a very good inside midfielder but lacks a bit of pace and polish with his kicking, and until O'Mears gets recovers from injury, so does he.

They gave away two picks last year that could have been used to stock up on midfielders and this early pick could have been used to bring in some talent. Given Hawthorn built its premierships on the back of having many early picks, I find the apathy towards losing draft picks fairly strange.

Gary Buckenara said on fox footy that Hawthorn decided to trade up to get Lewis, so the club knows the value of early picks. The O'Meara trade runs against that philosophy. In general, the best trades are trades for need, but its dangerous to trade for midfielders given they're generally fairly expensive. Richmond are getting criticised for trading for Prestia, but the pick was not unprotected, Richmond didn't trade away two other picks to get him and Prestia's injury issues aren't nearly as bad. That said, the jury is rightly out on that trade. And the jury is right to be out on the O'Meara trade.

It's also ideal to trade when you have most of your list developed, but it's clear now that Hawthorn overestimated how developed its list is.

All this proves is that the club is made up of humans and like any well run side, like New England, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc they make mistakes.

Great post. Hawks made mistakes right through the successful years too so they arent mutually exclusive

But on the rebuild through the (I mean going for lots of early draft picks) draft . Lots of clubs do it, but as far as a lot of us can see, only Hawthorn and West coast could be said to have won a flag on that line. Many have gone close. its a fine blend of all avenues

 

[stfan]

Gardiner was contracted and on decent coin relative to his output and we had salary cap issues. To get him off our list we traded him to St Kilda with King for pick 90. If Gardiner wasn't involved in the trade we would have gotten more than pick 90 for King.

If we delisted King any club could have picked him up which is why St Kilda was willing to trade for him.

No Gavin Excell is correct.

Cats were never going to get more than pick 90 Gardiner for him, and as it turned out your last pick that year was 60 used on a f/s (which back then I think was that f/s were just your last pick and so was basically not counting). So you last real pick was 50. Gardiner from memory was traded for pick 115 odd, and so the picks were really meaningless.

IMO the Cats traded King in part just to be nice to their former Captain and to recognise his service, rather than force him into the Pre Season Draft.
Saints were probably happy enough two as it just made their acquisition more certain and got them to the club earlier to tray. Make no mistake Lyon wanted rucks and so King was the main attraction. Gardiner was just an extra.

 

[Pessimistic]

So Just to recap:

Other posters think:

• Hawks got rid of lewis and mitchell too soon, too cheaply, made a balls up because they could still be contending, only intended to get rid of one
• Hawks have lots of old slow players and should be replacing them as quickly as possible (except michell and Lewis in point 1)
• Hawks shouldn't try to speed up the process: no other team has ever rebuild under seven years so why should they (its borderline unfair)
• Clarko's a temperamantal loose cannon, and somehow has been a great coach but its really the assistants who are now departed who were the real brains
• Hawthorns players dont rate, they were in the right place at the right time ( or three times to be exact) However once a player leaves he has been an absolute champion and in some cases tin the top 50 in the last 25 years
• They paid too much for omeara in picks swaps, and vickery in contract value, even more so because they arent instantly taking us to top four status which was our assessment wrongly last year
• Its even more embarrassing because bigfooty is eagerly waiting the pick number of the one traded to st kilda, no doubt the poor kid drafted will be scrutinised every week by people with nothing better to do
• The club is delusional, the supporters are delusional, or they have abandoned already, bandwaggoners that they are
• Just because they have been quite successful, it doesnt mean the club will continue this way. didnt they go bust last time they were this successful?
• Most other organizations continue to be successful, but with hawthorn the success means they are closer to folding altogether

Did I miss anything?

 

[doppleganger]

No Gavin Excell is correct.

Cats were never going to get more than pick 90 Gardiner for him, and as it turned out your last pick that year was 60 used on a f/s (which back then I think was that f/s were just your last pick and so was basically not counting). So you last real pick was 50. Gardiner from memory was traded for pick 115 odd, and so the picks were really meaningless.

IMO the Cats traded King in part just to be nice to their former Captain and to recognise his service, rather than force him into the Pre Season Draft.
Saints were probably happy enough two as it just made their acquisition more certain and got them to the club earlier to tray. Make no mistake Lyon wanted rucks and so King was the main attraction. Gardiner was just an extra.

St.Kilda traded pick 90 to Geelong in return for S.King AND Charlie Gardiner.

It was a salary dump by the Cats. King spent the majority of 2007 in the VFL, only playing a handful of AFL games in 2007 as the Cats went with Ottens and Blake as their rucks.

Geelong couldn't afford to have a highly paid player sitting in the VFL when they were being squeezed by the salary cap.

They didn't even use the draft pick, because they couldn't afford to!!

So it was either delist him, or give him to a club he wanted to end up at.

Hawks have said they could afford both Lewis and Mitchell in the cap. They weren't battling away in the VFL having been superseded by superior options.

It is hilarious reading Hawk fans actually trying to justify their handling of it...that yes it was all part of the plan to just move on their best TWO players for nothing.

 

[tesla1962]

Did I miss anything?

Yes, an afternoon nap by the look of your post.

 

[SSSSSS]

St.Kilda traded pick 90 to Geelong in return for S.King AND Charlie Gardiner.

It was a salary dump by the Cats. King spent the majority of 2007 in the VFL, only playing a handful of AFL games in 2007 as the Cats went with Ottens and Blake as their rucks.

Geelong couldn't afford to have a highly paid player sitting in the VFL when they were being squeezed by the salary cap.

They didn't even use the draft pick, because they couldn't afford to!!

So it was either delist him, or give him to a club he wanted to end up at.

Hawks have said they could afford both Lewis and Mitchell in the cap. They weren't battling away in the VFL having been superseded by superior options.

It is hilarious reading Hawk fans actually trying to justify their handling of it...that yes it was all part of the plan to just move on their best TWO players for nothing.

Lewis wanted more than he was worth. We rarely give more than a year for players north of thirty. Melbourne offered him a better deal and we will wish Lewis all the best. He was nowhere near the player he once was in his last year with us anyway. We are missing him this year but I don't think we will miss him in two.

Mitchell was going to move out West sooner rather than later. His kids are starting school soon and no one here is privy to the discussions had between he and Clarko but I assume that going now before the kids start school was one of the topics of discussion. We were able to move a favourite son to the destination he preferred in a time that was suitable to his family.

Was it good for a club this year? Definitely not. We lost a champion player and probably the best midfielder behind Lethal in the history of our club. We got nothing but some shoddy picks and cap space for it. Short term it will hurt us but hopefully the two spots opening up will help develop our next players or at the very least separate the wheat from the chaff.

Was it part of the plan? Probably not ideal. Would have rathered moved Gibson on but the opportunity was there to move our list forward in terms of our age profile and the team probably thought it was in the best interests for both the player and the club to get them going.

Was it good for Lewis and Mitchell? Yep and I wish both of them all the best.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Lewis wanted more than he was worth. We rarely give more than a year for players north of thirty. Melbourne offered him a better deal and we will wish Lewis all the best. He was nowhere near the player he once was in his last year with us anyway. We are missing him this year but I don't think we will miss him in two.

Mitchell was going to move out West sooner rather than later. His kids are starting school soon and no one here is privy to the discussions had between he and Clarko but I assume that going now before the kids start school was one of the topics of discussion. We were able to move a favourite son to the destination he preferred in a time that was suitable to his family.

Was it good for a club this year? Definitely not. We lost a champion player and probably the best midfielder behind Lethal in the history of our club. We got nothing but some shoddy picks and cap space for it. Short term it will hurt us but hopefully the two spots opening up will help develop our next players or at the very least separate the wheat from the chaff.

Was it part of the plan? Probably not ideal. Would have rathered moved Gibson on but the opportunity was there to move our list forward in terms of our age profile and the team probably thought it was in the best interests for both the player and the club to get them going.

Was it good for Lewis and Mitchell? Yep and I wish both of them all the best.

That's bullshit about Lewis, he went into the chat with Clarko thinking they were going to discuss him being made captain only to be told they wanted to trade him

Don't make stuff up

 

[Jane Doe]

St.Kilda traded pick 90 to Geelong in return for S.King AND Charlie Gardiner.

It was a salary dump by the Cats. King spent the majority of 2007 in the VFL, only playing a handful of AFL games in 2007 as the Cats went with Ottens and Blake as their rucks.

Geelong couldn't afford to have a highly paid player sitting in the VFL when they were being squeezed by the salary cap.

They didn't even use the draft pick, because they couldn't afford to!!

So it was either delist him, or give him to a club he wanted to end up at.

Hawks have said they could afford both Lewis and Mitchell in the cap. They weren't battling away in the VFL having been superseded by superior options.

It is hilarious reading Hawk fans actually trying to justify their handling of it...that yes it was all part of the plan to just move on their best TWO players for nothing.

lewis is just about cooked to be honest judging by his performances over the last few games, and there is talk that Mitchell might finish up at the end of the year. They might have helped us in a couple of games this year but they were exposed in the 2nd half of last season

 

[Gavin Excell]

Gardiner was contracted and on decent coin relative to his output and we had salary cap issues. To get him off our list we traded him to St Kilda with King for pick 90. If Gardiner wasn't involved in the trade we would have gotten more than pick 90 for King.

If we delisted King any club could have picked him up which is why St Kilda was willing to trade for him.

Then i stand corrected

 

[stfan]

So Just to recap:

Other posters think:

• Hawks got rid of lewis and mitchell too soon, too cheaply, made a balls up because they could still be contending, only intended to get rid of one
• Hawks have lots of old slow players and should be replacing them as quickly as possible (except michell and Lewis in point 1)
• Hawks shouldn't try to speed up the process: no other team has ever rebuild under seven years so why should they (its borderline unfair)
• Clarko's a temperamantal loose cannon, and somehow has been a great coach but its really the assistants who are now departed who were the real brains
• Hawthorns players dont rate, they were in the right place at the right time ( or three times to be exact) However once a player leaves he has been an absolute champion and in some cases tin the top 50 in the last 25 years
• They paid too much for omeara in picks swaps, and vickery in contract value, even more so because they arent instantly taking us to top four status which was our assessment wrongly last year
• Its even more embarrassing because bigfooty is eagerly waiting the pick number of the one traded to st kilda, no doubt the poor kid drafted will be scrutinised every week by people with nothing better to do
• The club is delusional, the supporters are delusional, or they have abandoned already, bandwaggoners that they are
• Just because they have been quite successful, it doesnt mean the club will continue this way. didnt they go bust last time they were this successful?
• Most other organizations continue to be successful, but with hawthorn the success means they are closer to folding altogether

Did I miss anything?

I think it can be put more simply as the Hawks did many things very well for many years, and achieved great success from this.

But that in the 2017 Draft/Trade Period that the Hawks lost their way somewhat and tried to win another flag when really commencing a rebuild was in order. This was compounded by getting calls like Vickery wrong.

So the Hawks just have to in the 2018 Draft/Period get fully on board with rebuilding, or otherwise they will waste years like the Blues did under Malthouse when they wasted seasons by try to top up with the wrong players. The lack of good Hawk youth now makes this the only real path. The Blues having seen the light mid last season are now on the right track.

I think that many, of not most Hawks fans understand this. But there are some "But we are Hawthorn-ites" who think that they will FA Martin and Fyfe and swap some lesser lights out for guns in and be back winning flags in no time at all.

 

[Gavin Excell]

No Gavin Excell is correct.

Cats were never going to get more than pick 90 Gardiner for him, and as it turned out your last pick that year was 60 used on a f/s (which back then I think was that f/s were just your last pick and so was basically not counting). So you last real pick was 50. Gardiner from memory was traded for pick 115 odd, and so the picks were really meaningless.

IMO the Cats traded King in part just to be nice to their former Captain and to recognise his service, rather than force him into the Pre Season Draft.
Saints were probably happy enough two as it just made their acquisition more certain and got them to the club earlier to tray. Make no mistake Lyon wanted rucks and so King was the main attraction. Gardiner was just an extra.

Or perhaps not. Confused now

 

[Gavin Excell]

I think it can be put more simply as the Hawks did many things very well for many years, and achieved great success from this.

But that in the 2017 Draft/Trade Period that the Hawks lost their way somewhat and tried to win another flag when really commencing a rebuild was in order. This was compounded by getting calls like Vickery wrong.

So the Hawks just have to in the 2018 Draft/Period get fully on board with rebuilding, or otherwise they will waste years like the Blues did under Malthouse when they wasted seasons by try to top up with the wrong players. The lack of good Hawk youth now makes this the only real path. The Blues having seen the light mid last season are now on the right track.

I think that many, of not most Hawks fans understand this. But there are some "But we are Hawthorn-ites" who think that they will FA Martin and Fyfe and swap some lesser lights out for guns in and be back winning flags in no time at all.

Be interesting to see how Hawks approach trading at end of season. Be an insight into how they see where they are at

 

[SSSSSS]

That's bullshit about Lewis, he went into the chat with Clarko thinking they were going to discuss him being made captain only to be told they wanted to trade him

Don't make stuff up

He wanted three years. He's not going to be much chop in three years time and that's the catalyst to him getting the flick.

Good on him for getting the deal he wanted at Melbourne.

 

[Pessimistic]

I think it can be put more simply as the Hawks did many things very well for many years, and achieved great success from this.

But that in the 2017 Draft/Trade Period that the Hawks lost their way somewhat and tried to win another flag when really commencing a rebuild was in order. This was compounded by getting calls like Vickery wrong.

So the Hawks just have to in the 2018 Draft/Period get fully on board with rebuilding, or otherwise they will waste years like the Blues did under Malthouse when they wasted seasons by try to top up with the wrong players. The lack of good Hawk youth now makes this the only real path. The Blues having seen the light mid last season are now on the right track.

I think that many, of not most Hawks fans understand this. But there are some "But we are Hawthorn-ites" who think that they will FA Martin and Fyfe and swap some lesser lights out for guns in and be back winning flags in no time at all.

We understand what you say MAY be true but just as easily not

And I forgot our young players are no good simply because thy aren't early draft picks. Until they depart hawthorn that is

 

[Pessimistic]

We understand what you say MAY be true but just as easily not

And I forgot our young players are no good. Until they depart hawthorn that is

Of course we will participate in the 2018 draft. Why wouldn't we?