Bluemour Discussion Thread VI (cont. in Part VII)

[PoultryinMotion]

from memory, Murph and Kelly are pretty similar stat-wise in CP's

The contested possession stat can be deceiving though can't it! Contextual analysis always required. There's the bullocky Sloane-like contested possessions and there's the one v one less congested type like the coach would roll out to us in pairs off the line at Mini Colts training!

 

[Jimmae]

Hearing Buckley is basically sitting in reserve seat number 1 for a list spot - will only be offered a contract if we have a spot post trade period.

Anyone else hearing similar?

Yup, so the Bombers have to come to the party or we have to have a great trade period to move him on.

I'm not sure I see Buckley walking to the PSD to get to the Dons.

Can't miss, sure fire, guaranteed, AA elite output then? Not prospect or potential.. guaranteed output.

That's what Kelly is now.


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He sure is, but I've covered this. As for Lukosius and Rankine, they're not playing well for the junior level, they're playing well for AFL level, now.

Kelly didn't look as complete as Rankine at Kelly's age, though his field kicking was more prodiguous. I know people used to say this all the time about kids a year out, or two years out, but the juniors coming through lately are much more professional with their development.

 

[chunkylover53]

Go on...? Not a very good argument so far...

How bout some reasoning?
Sheehan - Sub par agility and speed, can't jump, misses too many kicks and has struggled with his positioning all year
Smedts - Has talent but doesn't use it, has improved his tackling, doesn't find enough of the ball, isn't damaging with the ball from what I've seen.

How one is clearly better than the other is beyond me, especially as Smedts has shown an ability to do a defensive job.

Just to be clear I want them both cut, just can't fathom the reasoning behind such a strong point of view.

This whole board has a hard on for Sheehan for some reason.

 

[Wickzki]

If anyone thinks Josh Kelly is soft I would ask you to watch this specific play a few times.

 

[Wickzki]

This whole board has a hard on for Sheehan for some reason.

Because unfortunately if it weren't for the consistent injuries that have done him in he would quite likely be a very solid member of the 22.

It's sad that it happens to any player but it's even more disappointing just how much effort he made moving from Ireland. That and from all reports he's an exceptional human being and very well liked.

 

[Malifice]

A first and second rounder simply won't get it done - would you be happy accepting that for Patrick Cripps? Pretty sure we would all burn down Princess Park.

If Cripps was uncontracted and headed West, then yes a top 3 pick and decent change (a pick under 30) would have to be enough. You cant really get much better than that in those circumstances.

We should be looking to ship Gibbs off to Adelaide for their (15-17) and then sending that pick and pick 3 to GWS for Kelly and 25.

Alternatively if Kelly stays, then we ship Gibbs to Crows, Hopper comes to us, and Adelaide can compensate the Giants with whatever, and we take pick 3 to the draft.

 

[Blue__Balls]

If anyone thinks Josh Kelly is soft I would ask you to watch this specific play a few times.

Interesting comments from one of the call team a few minutes after the incident. Can't remember who it was but they told their colleagues that the "courageous" tag was off the mark, and that Kelly simply had no idea where he was in the play.

I'm actually inclined to agree. He made no attempt to get the ball, just saw the kick going wide, made to run in that direction, and got cleaned up by Kennedy.

Wasn't backing into a pack or running back with the flight. Just got collected because of a momentary lack of awareness.

Note: i'm not questioning his courage or ability in general, just questioning this clip being proof of either.

 

[Wickzki]

I'm going to ask this hypothetically.

If Gibbs hadn't asked to be traded to the Crows last year would people be so easily putting his name up for trade this year?

The reason why I ask is because from all reports it is in the past for both player and club. That isn't to suggest that Adelaide wont come running in a few weeks but rumors started to float almost the second our season was over last year. Then they increased when Adelaide's season came to an end. Thus far this year all we've heard lately is how Gibbs and club are committed to one another.

 

[smashbox gill]

Hearing Buckley is basically sitting in reserve seat number 1 for a list spot - will only be offered a contract if we have a spot post trade period.

Anyone else hearing similar?

Tbh I'd rather keep Boekhurst than Buckley. More potential to improve

 

[Aphrodite]

If Cripps was uncontracted and headed West, then yes a top 3 pick and decent change (a pick under 30) would have to be enough. You cant really get much better than that in those circumstances.

We should be looking to ship Gibbs off to Adelaide for their (15-17) and then sending that pick and pick 3 to GWS for Kelly and 25.

Alternatively if Kelly stays, then we ship Gibbs to Crows, Hopper comes to us, and Adelaide can compensate the Giants with whatever, and we take pick 3 to the draft.

There it is AGAIN!

 

[Malifice]

If Gibbs hadn't asked to be traded to the Crows last year would people be so easily putting his name up for trade this year?

100 percent yes for me.

We need to improve our draft position during the reset to enable us to concentrate talent in the 24 (this year) and under age bracket. This is with a view to entering a premiership window opening around 2020 and remaining open for 5 years past that point (really the goal is to have it remain open past that point indefinately like Sydney have).

A staged release of older or superflous players (Touhy) and players with value that havent bought in to the reset (Yarran, Menzel, Henderson) is whats on the cards to enable us to get in more early picks, and thus more talented players. In addition to this, we are clearly focussed on targetting the expansions sides to lure back home talented young players (and depth) from a team that has an abundance of both, and a shrinking salary cap.

We have few tradeable commodities this year. Simpson wont attract anything of value (he has a year left at most probably) and is worth more to the side with his leadership in any event. Murphy is the Captain and needed in the midfield (but I would consider a trade for the right price). Kruezer is our only decent ruckman (and should be retained untill we get another). Rowe we could trade but due to age and injury we wouldnt get anything for him.

Gibbs is about our only tradeable commodity with actual value. Macreadie also (we have an abundance of tall defenders). We could afford to let Casboult go, but only for a great trade or a large F/A offer that would attrace good compensation (although this places a lot of pressure on McKay, and we should look to recruit a mature or delisted F/A via the PSD for a year or two as cover if we do).

 

[Arr0w]

I'm going to ask this hypothetically.

If Gibbs hadn't asked to be traded to the Crows last year would people be so easily putting his name up for trade this year?

The reason why I ask is because from all reports it is in the past for both player and club. That isn't to suggest that Adelaide wont come running in a few weeks but rumors started to float almost the second our season was over last year. Then they increased when Adelaide's season came to an end. Thus far this year all we've heard lately is how Gibbs and club are committed to one another.

Was happy for the trade to go ahead last year, as well as this year if it arises

 

[Jorge]

I'm going to ask this hypothetically.

If Gibbs hadn't asked to be traded to the Crows last year would people be so easily putting his name up for trade this year?

The reason why I ask is because from all reports it is in the past for both player and club. That isn't to suggest that Adelaide wont come running in a few weeks but rumors started to float almost the second our season was over last year. Then they increased when Adelaide's season came to an end. Thus far this year all we've heard lately is how Gibbs and club are committed to one another.

The feeling seemed to be last off season that Adelaide & Bryce would try again, this time giving Carlton some warning.
Since they got back to pre season, they have been toeing the company line of commitment to one another.. which is easy to be sceptical of.

If Bryce is staying, it's difficult to see how we will be active in trade week AND maintain a first round draft presence. A quiet trade period is of course possible however would be inconsistent with our recent strategy.

 

[Malifice]

There it is AGAIN!

Sorry Aph, but I value the long term success of the Carlton Footy Club, and increasing our chances of holding aloft #17 in the next 5-10 years than I do about Bryce Gibbs sticking with club during a total list rebuild.

To be fair if we care about Gibbs future we should be trying to get him a flag before he retires. That's a much better chance of happening at Adelaide than it is with us.

Lets see how it pans out.

 

[Aphrodite]

Sorry Aph, but I value the long term success of the Carlton Footy Club, and increasing our chances of holding aloft #17 in the next 5-10 years than I do about Bryce Gibbs sticking with club during a total list rebuild.

To be fair if we care about Gibbs future we should be trying to get him a flag before he retires. That's a much better chance of happening at Adelaide than it is with us.

Lets see how it pans out.

He's staying OK.

 

[Bic]

Tbh I'd rather keep Boekhurst than Buckley. More potential to improve

As would I, especially from what I have seen from the last month of Boekhorst.

 

[Aphrodite]

Tbh I'd rather keep Boekhurst than Buckley. More potential to improve

Same.

 

[Bic]

I'm going to ask this hypothetically.

If Gibbs hadn't asked to be traded to the Crows last year would people be so easily putting his name up for trade this year?

The reason why I ask is because from all reports it is in the past for both player and club. That isn't to suggest that Adelaide wont come running in a few weeks but rumors started to float almost the second our season was over last year. Then they increased when Adelaide's season came to an end. Thus far this year all we've heard lately is how Gibbs and club are committed to one another.

I think if we can use Gibbs to get us Kelly, then absolutely.

Purely based on our list demographic, using Gibbs as an asset to help facilitate the trade (whether directly or indirectly) puts our list in a better spot.

Simply put, the way I am viewing this situation (rightly or wrongly, with obvious assumptions that Kelly + Hopper choose Carlton) is this:

Gibbs + Pick 3
vs
Kelly + Hopper

Moving forward, I choose the latter.

 

[BluesRule]

Was happy for the trade to go ahead last year, as well as this year if it arises

I am not stressed if he goes and we get good compensation, but I think Byrce will play for another four years at a very high level and we will get great value from keeping Gibbs if we can add some inside grunt and play him more outside.

There is no guarantee that we get Hopper or Kelly, so we could be really shit next year without Gibbs.

 

[Arr0w]

I am not stressed if he goes and we get good compensation, but I think Byrce will play for another four years at a very high level and we will get great value from keeping Gibbs if we can add some inside grunt and play him more outside.

There is no guarantee that we get Hopper or Kelly, so we could be really shit next year without Gibbs.

No doubt about his quality and I could make a strong case that he could play HBF or HFF for the latter part of his career.

Unlike most, our win/loss over the next 2 years makes little difference to me (love celebrating a great win like any other supporter). I am more interested in what we do now, to set us up for the next tilt of the flag

 

[BluesRule]

Sorry Aph, but I value the long term success of the Carlton Footy Club, and increasing our chances of holding aloft #17 in the next 5-10 years than I do about Bryce Gibbs sticking with club during a total list rebuild.

To be fair if we care about Gibbs future we should be trying to get him a flag before he retires. That's a much better chance of happening at Adelaide than it is with us.

Lets see how it pans out.

Bryce missed that boat last year - as if Adelaide had Gibbs this year then they would be unstoppable.

I think Adelaide rely on a few older players like Tex and Eddie who may decline next year, and others like Lever, Cameron and McGovern may exit - so it may already be too late for Adelaide.

 

[zeeCFC]

I think if we can use Gibbs to get us Kelly, then absolutely.

Purely based on our list demographic, using Gibbs as an asset to help facilitate the trade (whether directly or indirectly) puts our list in a better spot.

Simply put, the way I am viewing this situation (rightly or wrongly, with obvious assumptions that Kelly + Hopper choose Carlton) is this:

Gibbs + Pick 3
vs
Kelly + Hopper

Moving forward, I choose the latter.

might be more like:

Gibbs, Kelly & Hopper

vs.

Gibbs, Kelly & 2018 1st

 

[BluesRule]

No doubt about his quality and I could make a strong case that he could play HBF or HFF for the latter part of his career.

Unlike most, our win/loss over the next 2 years makes little difference to me (love celebrating a great win like any other supporter). I am more interested in what we do now, to set us up for the next tilt of the flag

But four years of Gibbs may be better for CFC getting to #17 than pick #16 from Adelaide? Shane Crawford was good for the Hawks.

 

[Blue Baggers]

Crows couldve done with Gibbs now without Sloane available #payupcrows

 

[Malifice]

I am not stressed if he goes and we get good compensation, but I think Byrce will play for another four years at a very high level and we will get great value from keeping Gibbs if we can add some inside grunt and play him more outside.

There is no guarantee that we get Hopper or Kelly, so we could be really shit next year without Gibbs.

Who cares about being shit next year (as long as we maintain competitiveness like we did this year)? Its not like were planning on playing finals till 2020 onwards.

We are resetting the list. Green shoots. Journey. Road map.

This year the goal was to get games into the kids, while avoiding flogging with an ultra defensive game plan. Both those goals were met (soundly).

Next year it's about moving gradually towards a more attacking game plan off the back of that defense (and getting games into the kids).

Off season this year the goal is to concentrate talent in the 24 and under bracket. Next year it's 25 and under (including us starting to dip our toes into the FA market).

We have 1 more year (and 2 more trade/ drafts) to go before we've even finished the 'guts' of the list rebuild. Well need another year or two after that to add in free agents and an extra player or two to top it off.