List Mgmt. Trade & F.A. 2017 (if a scenario sounds wrong - read on before posting)

[Scodog10]

Scodog10, If you can't explain something simply then you don't understand it well enough yourself. That is a simple life principle. You could have summarised your thoughts in the same amount words that you took to make yourself sound smart and put me down. I expected better from you or did I confuse you with Snoopdog.

Snoop wishes he was as good a poster as me

FWIW it's ok to just ask me to explain if you've missed the point. Despite my abrupt posting style it doesn't bother me.

 

[Thefly38]

Devon smith for second round

Watts for a third

And take pick 6 to the draft for the best available player.

I'd be happy with that

Line up lynch for trade this time next year.

And we're back in the ball game come 2019.

Need to get a second rounder to do that

 

[Thefly38]

Yeah what a smart way to run the club that is the reason we have drafted one KPP I n the first round in the last 10 years and have the worst spine in the business

What early KPP have we overlooked then. Like what top 10 picks have we used that we shouldn't of and who was a better choice at the time. Chris Egan (bust) Nathan Freeman (bust)

FREEMAN DRAFT YEAR
1 6 Matthew Scharenberg Collingwood Glenelg SANFL Traded from West Coast
1 7 James Aish Brisbane Lions Norwood SANFL
1 8 Luke McDonald North Melbourne Werribee VFL Father–son selection – son of Donald McDonald
1 9 Christian Salem Melbourne Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup Mid first round compensation pick from 2010 traded from Greater Western Sydney
1 10 Nathan Freeman Collingwood Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup
1 11 Dom Sheed West Coast Subiaco WAFL Traded from Collingwood; free agency compensation pick (Thomas)
1 12 Ben Lennon Richmond Northern Knights TAC Cup
1 13 Patrick Cripps Carlton East Fremantle WAFL
1 14 Cam McCarthy Greater Western Sydney South Fremantle WAFL Traded from Port Adelaide
1 15 Zak Jones Sydney Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup
1 16 Darcy Lang Geelong Geelong Falcons TAC Cup
1 17 Michael Apeness Fremantle Eastern Ranges TAC Cup
1 18 Luke Dunstan St Kilda Woodville-West Torrens SANFL Traded from Hawthorn
1 19 Blake Acres St Kilda West Perth WAFL Traded from Hawthorn; free agency compensation pick (Franklin)
1 20 Jack Leslie Gold Coast Gippsland Power TAC Cup End of first round uncontracted player compensation pick
2 21 Jarman Impey Port Adelaide Murray Bushrangers TAC Cup Traded from Greater Western Sydney
2 22 Darcy Gardiner Brisbane Lions Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Traded by Greater Western Sydney; received from Melbourne
2 23 Matt Crouch Adelaide North Ballarat Rebels TAC Cup Traded from Melbourne; free agency compensation pick (Sylvia)

Missed Cam McCarthy at a stretch but he's gone home with homesickness anyway. Maybe they were aware of the WA pull.

 

[dlammardo]

I’m warming to the idea of Watts as a forward. I think he could be a poor man’s Gunston and work alongside both Moore and Cox because he’s legitimately quick and agile despite his height. Much like Gunston too, he gets most of his marks on the lead by getting separation from his opponent. The real question is work rate. Hopefully the shock of being dumped by Melbourne is enough to put a rocket up how arse.

If he nominated us I’d hope that we initially offer our pick in the 50’s as a starting point. If they’re unhappy with that, offer 36 on the proviso that they pay some of his salary, which I assume would be circa $500k +.

Whilst warming to the idea im still skeptical on him, but having said that I’ve been very meh on our last two Melbourne recruits in Dunn and Howe and they’ve both proven me wrong, so hopefully the trend can continue.

The way Melbourne are speaking about him, they just don't want him clogging up a spot on the list. I'd be asking Melbourne to pay some of his salary and do a swap of 3rd rd picks.

It wouldn't surprise me if Melbourne want pick 6 in exchange for him and Pick 10 to satisfy Adelaide dor the Lever deal.

 

[dlammardo]

What early KPP have we overlooked then. Like what top 10 picks have we used that we shouldn't of and who was a better choice at the time. Chris Egan (bust) Nathan Freeman (bust)

Funnily enough the majority of KPP that actually played games in the 04 draft have played with us. Rusling, Dunn, Cloke, Wood, Bryan

 

[Apex36]

Scodog10, If you can't explain something simply then you don't understand it well enough yourself. That is a simple life principle. You could have summarised your thoughts in the same amount words that you took to make yourself sound smart and put me down. I expected better from you or did I confuse you with Snoopdog.

He can explain it, he just doesn’t want to repeat himself for the eleventy billionth time...

 

[Kings_Gambit]

Snoop wishes he was as good a poster as me

FWIW it's ok to just ask me to explain if you've missed the point. Despite my abrupt posting style it doesn't bother me.

Thanks. What is your issue with Cox? I value your opinion.

 

[Apex36]

What early KPP have we overlooked then. Like what top 10 picks have we used that we shouldn't of and who was a better choice at the time. Chris Egan (bust) Nathan Freeman (bust)

Wright and McCarthy are the ones who have stood out recently that we overlooked when we had access to them.

 

[Apex36]

The way Melbourne are speaking about him, they just don't want him clogging up a spot on the list. I'd be asking Melbourne to pay some of his salary and do a swap of 3rd rd picks.

It wouldn't surprise me if Melbourne want pick 6 in exchange for him and Pick 10 to satisfy Adelaide dor the Lever deal.

No chance that they’re getting an upgrade to pick 6 for Watts. If they chuck in 27 then we can talk.

 

[cleomenes]

I agree with you that the team requires a second marking target up forward and that a second genuine KPF(not elite just competent) is the most sustainable model but it is not the only model.

Given the composition of the list there are two possibilities that stand out for me. First is one of Cox or Reid at full forward. The problem with this is that they lack mobility. Therefore if you go down this route the forward structure has to be set up so that they always have one or more smalls in support, first to crumb off any aerial contests and second to provide defensive pressure, either directly or by corralling the opposition back towards the big guys(they may lack agility but they still take up real estate).

The second option would be to use Fasolo as an undersized key forward(I distinctly remember a game against Richmond where he made Rance look second rate in many one on one contests). Again for this to work the forward line structures have to be organised to suit, in this case that would mean coordinated leading patterns to separate the defenders otherwise an undersized forward line is liable to concede too many intercept marks.

The two obstacles to either of these plans working are first they require a level of organisation and team work among the forwards that has been absent the past several seasons. The second is that the four main forwards in these scenarios being Moore, Elliot, Fasolo and Cox/Reid are not able to provide enough at ground level. Therefore as the two lesser talents of the four only one of Cox/Reid or Fasolo should play in the same line up and the other replaced by a small who can provide defensive pressure while still contributing on the score board.

That leads me to my conclusion that if looking for a ready made player to improve the forward line it is not a key forward but a small that should be targeted while another tall is acquired through the draft. A quality ready made small will be cheaper allowing pick six to be retained hopefully for use on a young KPP while also providing flexibility to the coaches when determining their preferred forward structure by compensating for what would otherwise be top heavy set ups.

All of this is true. The aditional factors are well known too. The modern team defense that we find so hard to penetrate changes what is actually required on the ground. Players like Betts are rare, but that is what we need to balance our forward line. Elliott occupies this space, and is a top player, but doesn't provide enough ground level devil. He is too good to consider moving him on or to a different part of the ground. Real pace, goal sense and foot of the marking pack ability is what we have to add. All in one player.
Watts is not that player, but he would add teriffic kicking to the team, so he has to be considered. He could be a link player in the mold of Lynch, but his failure in the grand final should be noted when looking to rely on this kind of player under pressure.
Adding Watts pretty well consigns Mayne to the scrap heap, unless a new role is found, and we have a lot of medium defenders. He may be good as a lock down defender. There is nowhere for him in the midfield.
I would add that it is folly to expect that all of the players one might want on the field will be available any given week. Backup is required everywhere, and one of the consequences of interchange is that spare parts players have a place. One of the few good consequences of interchange.

 

[Unknown Identity]

Players in:

2018 2nd round pick for Devon Smith
Pick 36 for Saad
Pick 6 and 54 for Watts and Pick 10

Players out:

Jackson Ramsay to Fremantle for Pick 40
Pick 40 and Levi Greenwood to Gold Coast for Pick 22

B: Saad - McLarty - Langdon
HB: Crisp - Reid - Howe
C: Maynard - Pendlebury - D.Smith
HF: Sidebottom - Moore - Watts
F: Elliott - Cox - Fasolo
R: Grundy - Adams - Treloar

INT: Hoskin Elliott - Wells - De Goey - Scharenberg

Pick 10 - Noah Balta
Pick 22 - Ed Richards

 

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Watts, 10 & 27 for 6 & 36.
Melbourne give pick 6 and future 2nd to Adelaide for Lever.
Use 27 for Devon Smith.
Greenwood & Oxley for Saad.
Thoughts?

 

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Players in:
2018 2nd round pick for Devon Smith
Pick 36 for Saad
Pick 6 and 54 for Watts and Pick 10
Players out:
Jackson Ramsay to Fremantle for Pick 40
Pick 40 and Levi Greenwood to Gold Coast for Pick 22
Pick 10 - Noah Balta
Pick 22 - Ed Richards

Yeah, yours is probably better.

 

[Unknown Identity]

Watts, 10 & 27 for 6 & 36.
Melbourne give pick 6 and future 2nd to Adelaide for Lever.
Use 27 for Devon Smith.
Greenwood & Oxley for Saad.
Thoughts?

Dees have to part with Pick 10, 27, Future 2nd Round pick, Jack Watts for Lever and Pick 36.

Got a feeling they wouldn't be too keen.

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

We need to use this trade period to set up securing lynch next year. Gold Coast will match ano offer so we need to be able to trade.

I would be looking to off pick 6 for someone first round next year which then gives us 3 to play with Re lynch. Pick 6 for watts and dees first rounder next year would be an example.

 

[Old Spice]

Not sure about Watts in our forward half. Zero defensive pressure I would think.

 

[Scodog10]

Thanks. What is your issue with Cox? I value your opinion.

It's not specifically an issue with Cox. The biggest problem that I and a few others have is that a forward group including Cox, Lynch and Moore won't work. The same as a forward group including Cox, Reid and Moore won't either.

I think if Cox continues the upward trajectory of the last month of the season he can surpass my earlier expectations of his ability up forward. Although there is a but. IMO, he needs to improve his mobility because right now he gets to about 50% of the contests that I'd like him to be involved in to be a consistent performer as a mark and kick player. Second we need to fix up the structure at his feet because we become very immobile very quickly with him in the mix. I would use him primarily through the ruck and start Grundy forward then swap them around immediately after the first bounce so you're using both to their greatest strengths. Not sure the club will go that way though because of the impact on zones.

In a situation like this I'm weighing up the value of the whole and the collective both now and in the future. It's a bit more complex than just rating him or not unlike a Mayne or Schade who are flat out not up to it. Like Greenwood he's an enigma.

I'll leave with this if he has a great 2018 do we really need Lynch? Conversely if he has a poor 2018 what do we do with a guy on good coin that's 27 turning 28 that still hasn't established himself after 5 years in the system? No club will want to take that on. Apex was right with his assessment, but I guess this is better than creating drama.

 

[Thefly38]

Dees have to part with Pick 10, 27, Future 2nd Round pick, Jack Watts for Lever and Pick 36.

Got a feeling they wouldn't be too keen.

How badly do they want Lever ????

 

[sloth6]

Devon Smith won't be going to Carlton - failed medical apparently

 

[Saintly Viewed]

How very German S&M of you...

Very good

 

[Thefly38]

It's not specifically an issue with Cox. The biggest problem that I and a few others have is that a forward group including Cox, Lynch and Moore won't work. The same as a forward group including Cox, Reid and Moore won't either.

I think if Cox continues the upward trajectory of the last month of the season he can surpass my earlier expectations of his ability up forward. Although there is a but. IMO, he needs to improve his mobility because right now he gets to about 50% of the contests that I'd like him to be involved in to be a consistent performer as a mark and kick player. Second we need to fix up the structure at his feet because we become very immobile very quickly with him in the mix. I would use him primarily through the ruck and start Grundy forward then swap them around immediately after the first bounce so you're using both to their greatest strengths. Not sure the club will go that way though because of the impact on zones.

In a situation like this I'm weighing up the value of the whole and the collective both now and in the future. It's a bit more complex than just rating him or not unlike a Mayne or Schade who are flat out not up to it. Like Greenwood he's an enigma.

I'll leave with this if he has a great 2018 do we really need Lynch? Conversely if he has a poor 2018 what do we do with a guy on good coin that's 27 turning 28 that still hasn't established himself after 5 years in the system? No club will want to take that on. Apex was right with his assessment, but I guess this is better than creating drama.

Yeah its why I feel a forward line with Fasolo , Elliot , Cox doesn't work either. If he brings the ball to ground we look ordinary very quickly as all 3 are marking players.

 

[Unknown Identity]

How badly do they want Lever ????

I would have thought Pick 10 and 2018 1st round pick for Lever and Pick 34 or 52 would have been about par for the course.

 

[DaVe86]

Dees have to part with Pick 10, 27, Future 2nd Round pick, Jack Watts for Lever and Pick 36.

Got a feeling they wouldn't be too keen.

They definitely aren't going for that!

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I don't think anyone's been calling for a one KPF forward line, just mentioning that it is a valid option. There's no disputing that.

Personally, I want a support forward for Moore. Whether that's a young developing tall (preferably not through the draft if it can be avoided), or a slightly older battering ram type. If we can't yet find one or whoever we get is not ready then we stick with Cox/Reid/Mayne for 2018. Moore projects to be very good and will likely cost us $1M or near to at some point. I don't want to be paying another key forward over $1M, they are overpriced in the market.

Looking at who might be available at pick 6, I don't think I want a tall. We are much more likely to get a potential A grader if we take best available and I don't think that's going to be a KPP. You don't get cute with top 10 picks, you make the most of the chance to draft a potentially elite talent. Either that or we trade it for a more certain KPP hit as this year's draft looks a real risk of dudding it up if we go tall at 6.

Very thoughtful reasoned points made.

The key one, if I'm getting it, is using pick 6 ever acceptable to select (on potential ofcourse) an ok or medium talent key position kid v an elite mid or flanker or defender?

It's a terrific point.

Say we can select Coffield (i just keep seeing his name pop up with raps) who could be our "Lever" over say a Brander who might progress to say Nathan Brown level? (Not saying he's same sort of player more about level.)

It's a great dilema.

Dare I say it, but we should use earliest pick on potential elite as the main tactic.

 

[Unknown Identity]

Devon Smith won't be going to Carlton - failed medical apparently

Where are you hearing this?