Mega Thread The new Bucks mega-thread. It's Official. 2 Year Deal for Bucks.

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left at home said:
Basically that’s what he said. There is no pass mark
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You are correct.

And while I gave a Pass/High Distinction to the hypothetical winning a flag (hand on dick stuff), there really is no pass mark because the club has been put into a position that it should never have been put into in the first place. And subsequently, bar a few tweaks around the edges, the key culprits are still in play. Don't subscribe to not holding people to account. But that's just me.
 
jackcass said:
So the club just needed to change tack because a few at the club threw a bit of a tanty, seriously! How about expecting those individuals to behave like adults instead of petulant brats.
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How many we don't know, Swanny made the comment in his book apparently that some (quantity unknown as I have not read the book) pleaded with MM, even though futile, to coach on in 2012. Regardless of whether or not they're petulant brats as you call them is irrelevant, what is relevant is if it is unpopular among some of the playing group to change the coach then success with the new coach coming in would never come to fruition. That my friend is called swimming against the tide, hazard a guess the club knew of this dissension yet still went ahead with the succession plan anyway. WTF!

Petulant brats or not you can't make them unpetulant, it's the way they are. IMV IF there was dissension and MM being replaced was the reason for it then the club should've taken up Nathan's offer to take the mantle when MM was ready to step aside (if indeed he did make that offer).

The reason many supporters have their nose out of joint about it, including myself, is what seemed externally at least the massive potential for another flag (or more) in that list given the dominance of that team in 2011 thrown out the window for the sake of changing the coach - of course that is speculation, but difficult to argue against. There is also speculation that the team and MM were "not themselves" because of the impending succession and hence the loss of the GF
 

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MarkT2 said:
The last back to back was in the 1930s. In fact, I think 2011 was the first time since the 1930s that we made a GF to defend the title. 2011 was definitely a missed opportunity. We were the best side in the comp by a margin. I also think we had the best list in 2012 but season ending injuries to 5 best 22 players and the McCarthy death and funeral on the Thursday before the PF was the difference between a flag and a PF loss. It all fell apart from there.
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1958 - flag. 1959 lost first 5 games - staggered into the 4 and lost 1st final - goodnight nurse. 1990 flag. 1991 - finished 7th - missed finals. 2010 flag. 2011 dominate H&A. Lose GF - in front 1/4 time & 1/2 time, 7 points behind 3/4 time - lose. In past 50 years following have won back to back flags - Carlton, Richmond, Essendon, Hawthorn, Adelaide, Brisbane.

For a large club that makes a lot of noise, our performance where it matters - FLAGS - has been tres ordinary - yes we've made many finals and contested more than others but that's little compensation for not bagging the silverware we could have and not having back to back for 80+ years while other mongrels have savoured back to back.
 
Carringbush2010 said:
How many we don't know, Swanny made the comment in his book apparently that some (quantity unknown as I have not read the book) pleaded with MM, even though futile, to coach on in 2012. Regardless of whether or not they're petulant brats as you call them is irrelevant, what is relevant is if it is unpopular among some of the playing group to change the coach then success with the new coach coming in would never come to fruition. That my friend is called swimming against the tide, hazard a guess the club knew of this dissension yet still went ahead with the succession plan anyway. WTF!

Petulant brats or not you can't make them unpetulant, it's the way they are. IMV IF there was dissension and MM being replaced was the reason for it then the club should've taken up Nathan's offer to take the mantle when MM was ready to step aside (if indeed he did make that offer).

The reason many supporters have their nose out of joint about it, including myself, is what seemed externally at least the massive potential for another flag (or more) in that list given the dominance of that team in 2011 thrown out the window for the sake of changing the coach - of course that is speculation, but difficult to argue against. There is also speculation that the team and MM were "not themselves" because of the impending succession and hence the loss of the GF
Click to expand...
Petulant brats they were in deed my W. A mate. I'm of the opinion you can't have the tail wagging the dog. Would you be ok with the tail being the boss?
 
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Carringbush2010 said:
How many we don't know, Swanny made the comment in his book apparently that some (quantity unknown as I have not read the book) pleaded with MM, even though futile, to coach on in 2012. Regardless of whether or not they're petulant brats as you call them is irrelevant, what is relevant is if it is unpopular among some of the playing group to change the coach then success with the new coach coming in would never come to fruition. That my friend is called swimming against the tide, hazard a guess the club knew of this dissension yet still went ahead with the succession plan anyway. WTF!

Petulant brats or not you can't make them unpetulant, it's the way they are. IMV IF there was dissension and MM being replaced was the reason for it then the club should've taken up Nathan's offer to take the mantle when MM was ready to step aside (if indeed he did make that offer).

The reason many supporters have their nose out of joint about it, including myself, is what seemed externally at least the massive potential for another flag (or more) in that list given the dominance of that team in 2011 thrown out the window for the sake of changing the coach - of course that is speculation, but difficult to argue against. There is also speculation that the team and MM were "not themselves" because of the impending succession and hence the loss of the GF
Click to expand...

I think this is a very interesting discussion.

I'm actually happy to accept the argument that Buckley sought to have the start date on his tenure as senior coach pushed out. So if true, why wasn't his magnanimous gesture acted upon. Well the answer lies with one or more of the other individuals involved - McGuire, Pert, Malthouse and the forgotten one - Kelly. Let's hypothesize:

(i) Malthouse - chose not to accept Buckley's gesture out of sheer bloody mindedness but I would have thought that McGuire could have persuaded him, for the sake of the playing group and possibly another flag, to stay on.

(ii) McGuire - so this bring's McGuire into question. This is the interesting one. Why wouldn't he have accepted Buckley's selfless gesture? It really doesn't make sense as this would have been his dream scenario - keep Malthouse in play and the playing group happy whilst retaining his boy, Buckley, for later. Happy days all round.

(iii) Pert and Kelly - I think the answer lies with these 2 shadowy figures. I think it was common knowledge that Pert and Malthouse did not see eye to eye whilst Kelly leveraged his position as Buckley's manager to create the succession plan whereby his client would ultimately become Collingwood senior coach. Kelly used the spectre of moving Buckley to another club to bait good old Ed who simply couldn't cope with the thought of his boy being at another club. So notwithstanding Buckley's supposed gesture, the likes of Pert and Kelly were able to convince/pressure McGuire to stay the course, even if it was not in the best interests of the club.

Summary - if true, all big Ed is guilty of is being a deluded emotive fool. The 2 other guys are the insidious assholes responsible for this sham, if true.
 
TKiL said:
1958 - flag. 1959 lost first 5 games - staggered into the 4 and lost 1st final - goodnight nurse. 1990 flag. 1991 - finished 7th - missed finals. 2010 flag. 2011 dominate H&A. Lose GF - in front 1/4 time & 1/2 time, 7 points behind 3/4 time - lose. In past 50 years following have won back to back flags - Carlton, Richmond, Essendon, Hawthorn, Adelaide, Brisbane.

For a large club that makes a lot of noise, our performance where it matters - FLAGS - has been tres ordinary - yes we've made many finals and contested more than others but that's little compensation for not bagging the silverware we could have and not having back to back for 80+ years while other mongrels have savoured back to back.
Click to expand...


Alternative point of view:
  • 1958 we win the un-winnable GF against the best team of the Century. 1959 Those "D's" were spitting chips mad about it and were never going to lose a final. (I was there) Going back to back against that mob was never gonna happen. Them sacking Norm Smith makes this MM/Buckley saga look like a square dance!!
  • 1990 Flag to end the curse (I was there)....after 32 years of copping it from everywhere and everyone we did it (A lot like the Tiges did this year)....check out your list, HOW MANY of those "back to back teams" did their b2b after 3 decades in the wilderness? It doesn't happen!
  • 2010 Great win, then they won the 2011 Pre-season cup and only lost twice through the year till the GF. But those boys had been "up" for 53 weeks by then. That brutal "Prelim" against the Hawks where they willed their way over the line it just took too much out of them. Geelong on the other hand cruised into the finals and all the way to the granny. We lost Beamer pre game and Jolly, Thomas, Didak and Reid went into the game injured (was this a mistake?) As you rightly point out we were in the game for a long time but we just ran out of legs (I was there) Geelong were fresher and they ran over us in the last quarter.
Now I know some people love to have someone to blame for perceived failures, but in sport (all sport) there are so many variables. If you want to cling onto the bile and stay bitter for the rest of your life well that's your choice but in reality Premierships / Titles / Records are so hard to win. I'm pretty proud to be able to say that I've seen my team win three in my lifetime and I don't need "compensation for not bagging the silverware we could have and not having back to back for 80+ years while other mongrels have savoured back to back"


Ps.... I'm glad you weren't around (or maybe you were) to see those "D's" win 6 flags in 10 years. You'd have been beside yourself!
 
Robroy22 said:
Alternative point of view:
  • 1958 we win the un-winnable GF against the best team of the Century. 1959 Those "D's" were spitting chips mad about it and were never going to lose a final. (I was there) Going back to back against that mob was never gonna happen. Them sacking Norm Smith makes this MM/Buckley saga look like a square dance!!
  • 1990 Flag to end the curse (I was there)....after 32 years of copping it from everywhere and everyone we did it (A lot like the Tiges did this year)....check out your list, HOW MANY of those "back to back teams" did their b2b after 3 decades in the wilderness? It doesn't happen!
  • 2010 Great win, then they won the 2011 Pre-season cup and only lost twice through the year till the GF. But those boys had been "up" for 53 weeks by then. That brutal "Prelim" against the Hawks where they willed their way over the line it just took too much out of them. Geelong on the other hand cruised into the finals and all the way to the granny. We lost Beamer pre game and Jolly, Thomas, Didak and Reid went into the game injured (was this a mistake?) As you rightly point out we were in the game for a long time but we just ran out of legs (I was there) Geelong were fresher and they ran over us in the last quarter.
Now I know some people love to have someone to blame for perceived failures, but in sport (all sport) there are so many variables. If you want to cling onto the bile and stay bitter for the rest of your life well that's your choice but in reality Premierships / Titles / Records are so hard to win. I'm pretty proud to be able to say that I've seen my team win three in my lifetime and I don't need "compensation for not bagging the silverware we could have and not having back to back for 80+ years while other mongrels have savoured back to back"


Ps.... I'm glad you weren't around (or maybe you were) to see those "D's" win 6 flags in 10 years. You'd have been beside yourself!
Click to expand...
Love your perspective.

Perspective is lost on people sometimes.
 
Help My Club said:
I think this is a very interesting discussion.

I'm actually happy to accept the argument that Buckley sought to have the start date on his tenure as senior coach pushed out. So if true, why wasn't his magnanimous gesture acted upon. Well the answer lies with one or more of the other individuals involved - McGuire, Pert, Malthouse and the forgotten one - Kelly. Let's hypothesize:
(i) Malthouse - chose not to accept Buckley's gesture out of sheer bloody mindedness but I would have thought that McGuire could have persuaded him, for the sake of the playing group and possibly another flag, to stay on.
(ii) McGuire - so this bring's McGuire into question. This is the interesting one. Why wouldn't he have accepted Buckley's selfless gesture? It really doesn't make sense as this would have been his dream scenario - keep Malthouse in play and the playing group happy whilst retaining his boy, Buckley, for later. Happy days all round.
(iii) Pert and Kelly - I think the answer lies with these 2 shadowy figures. I think it was common knowledge that Pert and Malthouse did not see eye to eye whilst Kelly leveraged his position as Buckley's manager to create the succession plan whereby his client would ultimately become Collingwood senior coach. Kelly used the spectre of moving Buckley to another club to bait good old Ed who simply couldn't cope with the thought of his boy being at another club. So notwithstanding Buckley's supposed gesture, the likes of Pert and Kelly were able to convince/pressure McGuire to stay the course, even if it was not in the best interests of the club.
Summary - if true, all big Ed is guilty of is being a deluded emotive fool. The 2 other guys are the insidious assholes responsible for this sham, if true.
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Bolded is my bet. With the GF win under his belt MM was angling for more from the start. Told no, he coached the team in 2011 to prove he was the messiah (maybe costing us the big one in the process). Whose mind was he trying to change, since Eddie/the board had spoken? My guess is he was hoping the court of public opinion would sway the board and/or threaten Eddie enough to change tack. It didn't. Raises the issue of why the succession plan to start with: I suspect it wasn't so much washed up MM or thin results but rather the cult of MM was a threat to either the club itself or the cult of Eddie. I am for the latter and believe what we saw play out was a political fight between who became Collingwood. Eddie won.
 
Robroy22 said:
Alternative point of view:
  • 1958 we win the un-winnable GF against the best team of the Century. 1959 Those "D's" were spitting chips mad about it and were never going to lose a final. (I was there) Going back to back against that mob was never gonna happen. Them sacking Norm Smith makes this MM/Buckley saga look like a square dance!!
  • 1990 Flag to end the curse (I was there)....after 32 years of copping it from everywhere and everyone we did it (A lot like the Tiges did this year)....check out your list, HOW MANY of those "back to back teams" did their b2b after 3 decades in the wilderness? It doesn't happen!
  • 2010 Great win, then they won the 2011 Pre-season cup and only lost twice through the year till the GF. But those boys had been "up" for 53 weeks by then. That brutal "Prelim" against the Hawks where they willed their way over the line it just took too much out of them. Geelong on the other hand cruised into the finals and all the way to the granny. We lost Beamer pre game and Jolly, Thomas, Didak and Reid went into the game injured (was this a mistake?) As you rightly point out we were in the game for a long time but we just ran out of legs (I was there) Geelong were fresher and they ran over us in the last quarter.
Now I know some people love to have someone to blame for perceived failures, but in sport (all sport) there are so many variables. If you want to cling onto the bile and stay bitter for the rest of your life well that's your choice but in reality Premierships / Titles / Records are so hard to win. I'm pretty proud to be able to say that I've seen my team win three in my lifetime and I don't need "compensation for not bagging the silverware we could have and not having back to back for 80+ years while other mongrels have savoured back to back"


Ps.... I'm glad you weren't around (or maybe you were) to see those "D's" win 6 flags in 10 years. You'd have been beside yourself!
Click to expand...
Lots of judgements in your post. FYI I attended 1958, 1960 and 1964 GFs. Bile is an extremely strong term to use. Alternative view is don't be happy with 3 wins from 14 GFs - accepting mediocrity is a sure way of maintaining mediocrity - I only want a successful Cwood and there's much the Club can do (I think it's made a small start) to return itself to being a powerhouse on the field.
Edit - if the majority of supporters contacted the club and said they were happy with overall performance that wouldn't be helpful at all.

Their raison d'etre should be flags nothing less.
 

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westozpie said:
Petulant brats they were in deed my W. A mate. I'm of the opinion you can't have the tail wagging the dog. Would you be ok with the tail being the boss?
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The players contribute a fair bit more than the tail...
 
Help My Club said:
Yes you could look at it that way.

But I'm just not one for pissing in the wind for the last 6 years. I just don't have the time nor inclination.
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I reckon you do a fair bit of pissing in the wind.
 
mike123 said:
I would have thought that would make you appreciate this thread more.
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There are similarities. Destroying characters who were loved in our childhood.
 
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