Society/Culture The Abortion Thread

[Procrastinator35]

Being aborted still doesn't cut it as a better outcome than being unloved IMO though. If you see an unborn, developing fetus as a life that is.

An interesting perspective from the Pythagorean school of thought here ShanDog....And no doubt a fore-runner to many conservative approaches to the topic....The Pythagorean school was a large influence on Plato & his thought. And no doubt, a marked influence to the inscription above the entrance to his academy: "Let no man ignorant of geometry enter here."

From the second source cited in post 318.

"According to the Hippocratic oath, abortion is forbidden as morally unjustifiable. A physician is not to help a woman abort her fetus by giving her an abortive remedy. Concerning the possible influence of Hippocrates by the Pythagoreans we would accept Edelstein's (1) position, according to which the Pythagoreans saw the fetus as an animate human life unconditionally worthy of preservation from the moment of conception. We learn about the Pythagorean views on marriage and procreation from Iamblichus (BII, 211-212) who indicates that a man should take the best of care for bringing a child into the world considering both the time and the way this should happen. What is more important, however, is to relate their views on procreation to their theory of the immortality of the soul. After death the soul disappears like a dream and dwells in a spiritual heavenly world until it reappears cleansed in a new birth. (2) The soul keeps only the fragmented happy moments of each of its cycles on an earthly life and will conclude its dream in the heavenly world, which is interrupted by its visitations (reincarnations) on earth. Thus, it is evident that for the Pythagoreans and, as result, the Hippocratic tradition, abortion would be morally unacceptable, since it stops this journey of the soul — the incorporeal part of the human body — towards its ultimate enlightenment, i.e. its relation to the divine. After all, such cases of bloody events like abortions, were seen as possible sources of ritual impurity. It is also noteworthy that such a view on abortion would relate to the conservative approach to abortion according to which the fetus has full moral status which implies that its right to life must be respected with the utmost seriousness and an abortion — apart from cases where the life of a woman is endangered—is as morally objectionable as any other murder." (3)

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

An interesting perspective from the Pythagorean school of thought here ShanDog....And no doubt a fore-runner to many conservative approaches to the topic....The Pythagorean school was a large influence on Plato & his thought. And no doubt, a marked influence to the inscription above the entrance to his academy: "Let no man ignorant of geometry enter here."

From the second source cited in post 318.

"According to the Hippocratic oath, abortion is forbidden as morally unjustifiable. A physician is not to help a woman abort her fetus by giving her an abortive remedy. Concerning the possible influence of Hippocrates by the Pythagoreans we would accept Edelstein's (1) position, according to which the Pythagoreans saw the fetus as an animate human life unconditionally worthy of preservation from the moment of conception. We learn about the Pythagorean views on marriage and procreation from Iamblichus (BII, 211-212) who indicates that a man should take the best of care for bringing a child into the world considering both the time and the way this should happen. What is more important, however, is to relate their views on procreation to their theory of the immortality of the soul. After death the soul disappears like a dream and dwells in a spiritual heavenly world until it reappears cleansed in a new birth. (2) The soul keeps only the fragmented happy moments of each of its cycles on an earthly life and will conclude its dream in the heavenly world, which is interrupted by its visitations (reincarnations) on earth. Thus, it is evident that for the Pythagoreans and, as result, the Hippocratic tradition, abortion would be morally unacceptable, since it stops this journey of the soul — the incorporeal part of the human body — towards its ultimate enlightenment, i.e. its relation to the divine. After all, such cases of bloody events like abortions, were seen as possible sources of ritual impurity. It is also noteworthy that such a view on abortion would relate to the conservative approach to abortion according to which the fetus has full moral status which implies that its right to life must be respected with the utmost seriousness and an abortion — apart from cases where the life of a woman is endangered—is as morally objectionable as any other murder." (3)

As soon as the Pythagoreans started surmising about the metaphysical (souls etc, thus influencing Hippocratic tradition) then they left the realm of proveable medical science altogether. As lacking as the knowledge was back then, anyway.

It's a worthy side debate for sure, but there are even more pressing proveables regarding the viability of a foetus as a 'life' - at what stage is it conscious? When does it react to external stimuli? When can it survive outside a womb?

 

[ShanDog]

My point was I don't understand the you can't abort because you deny potential life. If it is only potential life (IMO it is to a point) so what if it is aborted.
By the above logic I shouldn't be posting here but out trying to screw any women I can find lest I deny a "potential life"

Ok I get what you mean now. Didn't understand the logic because what I was talking about doesn't apply prior to conception.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

maybe the government end up with a generation of tank babies born without any of the issues that can be caused by poor diet, drug use including alcohol...

Think of the military applications!

 

[Procrastinator35]

As soon as the Pythagoreans started surmising about the metaphysical (souls etc, thus influencing Hippocratic tradition) then they left the realm of proveable medical science altogether. As lacking as the knowledge was back then, anyway.

It's a worthy side debate for sure, but there are even more pressing proveables regarding the viability of a foetus as a 'life' - at what stage is it conscious? When does it react to external stimuli? When can it survive outside a womb?

So I suggest you read up on Aristotles tripartite theory of degrees of life-forms & animation then, as it relates to the notion of foetal development, as adumbrated in the article I have cited above.

Aristotle is of course, the fore-runner for the scientific method & it was principally he who preferred the biological this-worldly explanation - prefaced upon a correspondence theory epistemology - as primary to that of the psycho-metaphysical world of Plato & the Pythagoreans.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

So I suggest you read up on Aristotles tripartite theory of degrees of life-forms & animation then, as it relates to the notion of foetal development, as adumbrated in the article I have cited above.

Aristotle is of course, the fore-runner for the scientific method & it was principally he who preferred the biological this-worldly explanation - prefaced upon a correspondence theory epistemology - as primary to that of the psycho-metaphysical world of Plato & the Pythagoreans.

Yep. I can admit my ignorance in this regard. I have some reading to do

 

[ShanDog]

When can it survive outside a womb?

For some people - about 40-50 years after birth.

 

[Lethality]

By the above logic I shouldn't be posting here but out trying to screw any women I can find lest I deny a "potential life"

The difference is between not having sexual intercourse and killing something with human DNA.

 

[Procrastinator35]

For some people - about 40-50 years after birth.

Big footy average gestation period.

For some reason your post caused this video image to pop into my head ShanDog.....LOL

 

[ShanDog]

Big footy average gestation period.

For some reason your post caused this video image to pop into my head ShanDog.....LOL

I look far better in a suit than PJW...

 

[Procrastinator35]

I look far better in a suit than PJW...

And you can probably handle your soy alot better too.

 

[ShanDog]

And you can probably handle your soy alot better too.

I like my coffee how I like my men - black. And without a penis.

 

[Ok Boomer]

If abortion is murder, is masturbation genocide?

 

[Procrastinator35]

If abortion is murder, is masturbation genocide?

How many eggs do you imagine a female loses when she rubs one out?....You didn't really think your pre-seminal moment all the way through....Now did you.

 

[Ok Boomer]

How many eggs do you imagine a female loses when she rubs one out?.

9000.

 

[Pie eyed]

A big issue with making abortion illegal is the lack of an ''out" for the mother if she doesn't want the child. A baby brought up unloved and neglected is a disgusting thing. I don't know what the numbers are in Australia but I'd imagine we don't have parity of numbers with abortion and couples wanting to adopt or foster.

Making abortion illegal simply leads to illegal abortions, deaths of mothers and babies and an illegal trade in abortions.
Making abortion illegal does no prevent abortion.

 

[ShanDog]

Making abortion illegal simply leads to illegal abortions, deaths of mothers and babies and an illegal trade in abortions.
Making abortion illegal does no prevent abortion.

Yep that's an issue.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Making abortion illegal simply leads to illegal abortions, deaths of mothers and babies and an illegal trade in abortions.
Making abortion illegal does no prevent abortion.

Time to break-out that 70's icon, I guess

 

[Pie eyed]

A big issue with making abortion illegal is the lack of an ''out" for the mother if she doesn't want the child. A baby brought up unloved and neglected is a disgusting thing. I don't know what the numbers are in Australia but I'd imagine we don't have parity of numbers with abortion and couples wanting to adopt or foster.

An issue with adoption is that the adoption of an Australian infant is almost impossible, certainly for most unobtainable. The red tape and bureaucracy involved is enough to force most prospective parents to look overseas, even for older children as the infants are far, far more expensive in a supposedly, profit free process. The Foster child system is littered with horror stories for the children and foster parents alike.
We do not do either adoption or fostering well in this country.
I'm not sure why.

 

[ShanDog]

An issue with adoption is that the adoption of an Australian infant is almost impossible, certainly for most unobtainable. The red tape and bureaucracy involved is enough to force most prospective parents to look overseas, even for older children as the infants are far, far more expensive in a supposedly, profit free process. The Foster child system is littered with horror stories for the children and foster parents alike.
We do not do either adoption or fostering well in this country.
I'm not sure why.

Yep, that's how I understand it. Hugh Jackman and his wife (name escapes me) are big advocates of changing adoption laws. I recall some big breakthrough a couple of years ago, but it's still rubbish.

 

[Boston tiger]

Bringing an unwanted and unloved child into the world is a bigger crime than supposedly "murdering" it, via abortion.

That’s just wank. You don’t abort for the child’s sake. If you were thinking about the child to be you’d adopt it.

 

[Lethality]

17 per 1000 women in Australia have an abortion in a given year, based on 2002 stats. That seems like a lot.

 

[Ok Boomer]

That’s just wank. You don’t abort for the child’s sake. If you were thinking about the child to be you’d adopt it.

So there is one willing adopter for every unwanted child ? I doubt that very much. It is easy to say "just adopt it" when you are not dealing with reality in terms of prospective adopters. Even more children will end up being stuck in orphanages and missions.

 

[Boston tiger]

So there is one willing adopter for every unwanted child ? I doubt that very much. It is easy to say "just adopt it" when you are not dealing with reality in terms of prospective adopters. Even more children will end up being stuck in orphanages and missions.

So what ?.. off topic but loving parents institutionalize their children at 6 months so they can have a big house not to be in.

 

[Pie eyed]

17 per 1000 women in Australia have an abortion in a given year, based on 2002 stats. That seems like a lot.

That would include "the morning after pill" which would highly inflate the figures.
Where did you get them, out of interest?
Some folk would inflate them for their own purposes.