List Mgmt. Brendon Goddard (ST KILDA RULED OUT POSSIBLE RETURN)

[FQFjt]

Asking Richo about whether we will recruit Goddard is like asking Turnbull about the government's planned policies for next month.

 

[luca77]

Look who is playing the man now , i said i was kidding so no need for the campaigner remark pal.
Move on

A quick "sorry, didn't mean it as an insult mate" doesn't hurt. Did call the guy a monkey after all.
Anyway Judge Judy duties over, back to footy. Would have been nice to give BJ a season but probably wasn't going to work out well, and since we didn't try to get Dal back, my expectations were low. Having said that, not getting Dal back turned out to be... A HUGE MISTAKE.

 

[Geary Is GOAT]

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2018-08-22/saints-rule-out-goddard

A little disappointed as i love his passion and feel his style of leadership could have been pretty welcome on field. + he'd be a hell of a lot better at Half Back than ******* Armitage.

 

[StCicatriz]

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2018-08-22/saints-rule-out-goddard

A little disappointed as i love his passion and feel his style of leadership could have been pretty welcome on field. + he'd be a hell of a lot better at Half Back than ******* Armitage.

it makes sense. you're not going to get a great deal out of him for the position he plays.

i think people have this image of beej at his best or near best. he's past that now.

we need to be looking at the long term future of the club.

 

[CaptainRisky]

A quick "sorry, didn't mean it as an insult mate" doesn't hurt. Did call the guy a monkey after all.
Anyway Judge Judy duties over, back to footy. Would have been nice to give BJ a season but probably wasn't going to work out well, and since we didn't try to get Dal back, my expectations were low. Having said that, not getting Dal back turned out to be... A HUGE MISTAKE.

Nah mate , i wasn't calling him a monkey and i hope it didn't sound like i was , all i was getting at is don't say No to BJ or anything negative about BJ or Trav is going to be all over you like a cheap suit , He obviously wants BJ back and that's fine . I would have thought from a previous comment i let him that he knew i was just messing with him , anyway its all good .
Rant done , I still dont think BJ should come back

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Would have been nice to give BJ a season but probably wasn't going to work out well, and since we didn't try to get Dal back, my expectations were low. Having said that, not getting Dal back turned out to be... A HUGE MISTAKE.

i think Dal was a differant prospect ... BJ can play in a number of positions as we require from game to game where as Dal really only had one role to him that he could have played for us , that said while a fantastic player and great clubman i dont know if he brought that much leadership as such ...knowllege yes but leadership maybe not

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

it makes sense. you're not going to get a great deal out of him for the position he plays.

i think people have this image of beej at his best or near best. he's past that now.

we need to be looking at the long term future of the club.

nah i dont think i was veiwing him that way ... as he has got older he has changed his game to suit his strenghts i mean he cant take those high flying marks and the days of him having a trot down the middle of the ground banging a long goal are well past him but he still can kick the ball really well and thats one area we lack in a lot ... for a free hit i reckon it should be a no-brainer to grab him .. but if Richo is to be believed we have no interest ... that to me is crazy though

 

[StCicatriz]

but why is that ?? is it possible that the reason would be the base line skill level at essendon is higher then that at St Kilda ??
i mentioned this in a thread the otherday that realistically where we are at we are not going to bring in a player to improve our top 5 players so in that case our next best bet is to improve the level of our bottom 5 players because out bottome 5 would have to be by far the worst bottom 5 in the comp so improving that by a little margin will improve the list ... thats what we should be doing as our sole focus making our list as strong as possible so we dont have situations where we gift games to guys like Weller week on week because even though he is s**t he is the best we got ....
if thats by bringing in Hannas then so be it if its by bringing in BJ great ... but we really cant get too caught up looking for the perfect player cause a) he doesnt exist and b) if he doese he doesnt want to come to st kilda as we are

because of the system and the cumulative output of the side on the park.

you have to remember that beej was playing across the half back line and as a loose defender. the easiest role in footy. its quite possible that he gets to st kilda and it quickly becomes apparent, with the issues we have with the defence in the midfield and its inability to move the ball offensively, how far off the pace he really is. which started to become noticeable at essendon. he can't move across the ground like he used to, he's getting to less contests. that's with saad on the same line and a very quick midfield.

i think he would help drive a standard, by how much though. i'm not sure.

tbh if he wasn't a past st kilda great i doubt anyone would even consider this. its nostalgia. because he was great again and did amazing things for our club, he'll come back and do amazing things again. that has never worked for our club. it's always just cost us opportunity with younger better players.

but to go to your point, i think you just need to improve the list in what ever way you can, but it needs to be done in a sustainable way. no point loading up on 30+ year olds and then find your self in the same position in 2 years time.

i think the club is doing it right. identify the 23-28 year olds who can come in, have impact now and help drive the club moving forward, whilst still there in 5 years time. goddard doesn't tick that box.

apart from the method above, instead of using goddard to improve the bottom 6, i'd much rather look at season battlers at state leagues via the rookie list or late in the draft. we missed the boat on menegola, kelly, liam ryan who would all improve our club now. can you imagine if we had rookied them when we had the chance to do so. hell imagine taking menegola instead of bailey rice!

 

[luca77]

i think Dal was a differant prospect ... BJ can play in a number of positions as we require from game to game where as Dal really only had one role to him that he could have played for us , that said while a fantastic player and great clubman i dont know if he brought that much leadership as such ...knowllege yes but leadership maybe not

Yeah, was a bit tongue in cheek. In hindsight we could have done with a guy with a bit of composure who can kick the ball going inside 50 but we really did need leaders out there more than anything. Proper leaders, that is.

 

[VDS66]

because of the system and the cumulative output of the side on the park.

you have to remember that beej was playing across the half back line and as a loose defender. the easiest role in footy. its quite possible that he gets to st kilda and it quickly becomes apparent, with the issues we have with the defence in the midfield and its inability to move the ball offensively, how far off the pace he really is. which started to become noticeable at essendon. he can't move across the ground like he used to, he's getting to less contests. that's with saad on the same line and a very quick midfield.

i think he would help drive a standard, by how much though. i'm not sure.

tbh if he wasn't a past st kilda great i doubt anyone would even consider this. its nostalgia. because he was great again and did amazing things for our club, he'll come back and do amazing things again. that has never worked for our club. it's always just cost us opportunity with younger better players.

but to go to your point, i think you just need to improve the list in what ever way you can, but it needs to be done in a sustainable way. no point loading up on 30+ year olds and then find your self in the same position in 2 years time.

i think the club is doing it right. identify the 23-28 year olds who can come in, have impact now and help drive the club moving forward, whilst still there in 5 years time. goddard doesn't tick that box.

apart from the method above, instead of using goddard to improve the bottom 6, i'd much rather look at season battlers at state leagues via the rookie list or late in the draft. we missed the boat on menegola, kelly, liam ryan who would all improve our club now. can you imagine if we had rookied them when we had the chance to do so. hell imagine taking menegola instead of bailey rice!

Case closed...

 

[Geary Is GOAT]

it makes sense. you're not going to get a great deal out of him for the position he plays.

i think people have this image of beej at his best or near best. he's past that now.

we need to be looking at the long term future of the club.

While i agree that he's clearly past his best i don't think it can be understated the value of experienced leadership on field. Especially when it comes to player development. Getting AFL games into kids helps them learn. But playing with experienced players fast tracks that. I think BJ would have been perfect for that. I also think Hanners will be good if we get him.

 

[VDS66]

Very well articulated arguments for and against getting him.

The trade off as I see it that he provides one thing but holds us back in another.

If he was 31 then it's pretty clear.

Club will need to weigh it up.

I suspect that a lot will come down to who else we recruit and their age.

Don't think we can carry more than one old head in the team.

Add Seedsman, Hanners and you don't need BJ IMO.

Then you have the possibility of Menzel.

There's 3 decent, mature leadership types right there.

The only way I can see it working is if he comes on as an 75% coach and 25% player with the understanding that his role will require senior games and Sandy games.

Somehow, I don't think he will go around again if he isn't playing at the highest level.

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

Sounds more like to me that the club doesn't want to admit it made a mistake last year.

Just further proof Retcho hasn't a clue.

Leadership? Maturity? Standards? Role-models?

Nup, not a need we have.

Seriously, what a deadset moron.

Yeah this I don't understand at all. I have written two lengthy posts in this thread about why I don't actually think Goddard is a good fit for us. This is largely based on his style of leadership, and what better AND realistic alternatives I think there are that might bring greater benefit. Some people here disagree with me and that is absolutely fine. I can see both sides.

However, I think we ALL absolutely agree that we need onfield leadership, and we need it very very badly. We are mostly just debating the style of leadership we each prefer and what players would best embody this.

For the coach to come out and say that we "don't have a need" based on the fact that he has played most of his career down back is mind-numbingly stupid. To base this decision on the onfield position he has played for most of his career, and to say we have Geary and Brown instead is absolutely moronic. We are mid table for I50 conceded yet almost dead last for scores conceded. Our backline (outside or Carlisle, Robbo and Webb) is horrible and mostly substandard or very young. We are consistently disorganised and exposed. Christ, if his position is actually the main consideration to pass him up, then piss Geary or Savage off because Goddard is a better organiser and a better kick than both.

Say he would take the spot of a younger player and we want to give opportunities to White, Rice, Coff and Clarke. Say his leadership style isn't a good fit. Say that you don't believe he is flexible enough to play anywhere else but HBF (he is but that's not the point). Say he is looks cooked. Say he is too old / slow for the role we have envisioned. There are good reasons to overlook Goddard (*cough* leadership style *cough*), but the fact he has played a lot on the HBF in not one of them.

The fact our coach is saying leadership isn't an onfield need (and a need everywhere) shows me we are up sh*t creek without extremely significant change from the top.

 

[The Punter]

Look, he wouldn't compete with Geary for a spot if he came, he'd be competing with Savage. And while Sav is quicker and probably a better one-on-one defender (without being great), Goddard is a better kick, and he provides organisation and leadership that Savage simply does not.

I just hope the club isn't making a decision based on the fact they don't want to admit a mistake. I'll admit I thought we wouldn't miss Riewoldt and Montagna that much, and that I didn't see much value from what Montagna did in the back half. But that obviously wasn't the case.

 

[George]

Poll added.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

because of the system and the cumulative output of the side on the park.

you have to remember that beej was playing across the half back line and as a loose defender. the easiest role in footy. its quite possible that he gets to st kilda and it quickly becomes apparent, with the issues we have with the defence in the midfield and its inability to move the ball offensively, how far off the pace he really is. which started to become noticeable at essendon. he can't move across the ground like he used to, he's getting to less contests. that's with saad on the same line and a very quick midfield.

i think he would help drive a standard, by how much though. i'm not sure.

tbh if he wasn't a past st kilda great i doubt anyone would even consider this. its nostalgia. because he was great again and did amazing things for our club, he'll come back and do amazing things again. that has never worked for our club. it's always just cost us opportunity with younger better players.

but to go to your point, i think you just need to improve the list in what ever way you can, but it needs to be done in a sustainable way. no point loading up on 30+ year olds and then find your self in the same position in 2 years time.

i think the club is doing it right. identify the 23-28 year olds who can come in, have impact now and help drive the club moving forward, whilst still there in 5 years time. goddard doesn't tick that box.

apart from the method above, instead of using goddard to improve the bottom 6, i'd much rather look at season battlers at state leagues via the rookie list or late in the draft. we missed the boat on menegola, kelly, liam ryan who would all improve our club now. can you imagine if we had rookied them when we had the chance to do so. hell imagine taking menegola instead of bailey rice!

the fact BJ is a St Kilda hall of famer is a factor for sure .... having one of our boys back is certainly a draw card but so is getting a guy for free ... if the equation was we had to trade for him then most certainly we wouldnt do it but as a delisted free agent costing us nothing at all as a 200% improvment on multiple players on the list i reckon its worth a go .... really we could (should) delist up to 7 guys off the list who are not up to it but we wont do that cause that would have us using pick 100+ to fill spots up but if we were to cut that deep and even if only for a year replace them with a still decent player its worth the risk... i am with you that we need to look at the state comps for gems that go un-noticed as well but given the void on our list realistically we can do both

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Very well articulated arguments for and against getting him.

The trade off as I see it that he provides one thing but holds us back in another.

If he was 31 then it's pretty clear.

Club will need to weigh it up.

I suspect that a lot will come down to who else we recruit and their age.

Don't think we can carry more than one old head in the team.

Add Seedsman, Hanners and you don't need BJ IMO.

Then you have the possibility of Menzel.

There's 3 decent, mature leadership types right there.

The only way I can see it working is if he comes on as an 75% coach and 25% player with the understanding that his role will require senior games and Sandy games.

Somehow, I don't think he will go around again if he isn't playing at the highest level.

i agree the thing is with BJ he is straight out a free hit ... you would think above all others our club would be the most desirable to him so its not a hard sell and its not going to be a high cost ... with the other guys we still have to convince them to come to us and then somehow please their origin club to secure them ... i wouldnt put BJ as the priority but he certainly is a good option to have in your pocket

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Look, he wouldn't compete with Geary for a spot if he came, he'd be competing with Savage. And while Sav is quicker and probably a better one-on-one defender (without being great), Goddard is a better kick, and he provides organisation and leadership that Savage simply does not.

I just hope the club isn't making a decision based on the fact they don't want to admit a mistake. I'll admit I thought we wouldn't miss Riewoldt and Montagna that much, and that I didn't see much value from what Montagna did in the back half. But that obviously wasn't the case.

its an intersting point about the organisation of the back line ... look i dont rate captain obvious Cameron Ling's special comments but on many occasions during our games he has made mentions of our back line looking confused and disorganised around the stoppages in defensive 50 ... i take that as a bit of lack or understanding and reading the play from our back six ... something Joey certainly had in spades was his ability to read the play and set up for that .... at this point i dont see anyone in the team with that ability

 

[StCicatriz]

Very well articulated arguments for and against getting him.

The trade off as I see it that he provides one thing but holds us back in another.

If he was 31 then it's pretty clear.

Club will need to weigh it up.

I suspect that a lot will come down to who else we recruit and their age.

Don't think we can carry more than one old head in the team.

Add Seedsman, Hanners and you don't need BJ IMO.

Then you have the possibility of Menzel.

There's 3 decent, mature leadership types right there.

The only way I can see it working is if he comes on as an 75% coach and 25% player with the understanding that his role will require senior games and Sandy games.

Somehow, I don't think he will go around again if he isn't playing at the highest level.

the one area i think we really need leadership, is in the midfield, specifically that bash and crash type. armo looks cooked and isn't playing there. koby gone.

we desperately need someone there. beams would be ideal, but is there anyone else available?

down back we are ok for experience i reckon

 

[VDS66]

its an intersting point about the organisation of the back line ... look i dont rate captain obvious Cameron Ling's special comments but on many occasions during our games he has made mentions of our back line looking confused and disorganised around the stoppages in defensive 50 ... i take that as a bit of lack or understanding and reading the play from our back six ... something Joey certainly had in spades was his ability to read the play and set up for that .... at this point i dont see anyone in the team with that ability

Agree.

Kept a close eye on it at the dogs game. It was woeful IMO.

Problem with BJ is when he gets up the ground and has to drop back, he gets exposed due to being slower.

Between him and Brown, we'd be ultra slow IMO. Unless you replace Geary with Rice and Weller with Geary.

 

[BrutThough]

Yeah this I don't understand at all. I have written two lengthy posts in this thread about why I don't actually think Goddard is a good fit for us. This is largely based on his style of leadership, and what better AND realistic alternatives I think there are that might bring greater benefit. Some people here disagree with me and that is absolutely fine. I can see both sides.

However, I think we ALL absolutely agree that we need onfield leadership, and we need it very very badly. We are mostly just debating the style of leadership we each prefer and what players would best embody this.

For the coach to come out and say that we "don't have a need" based on the fact that he has played most of his career down back is mind-numbingly stupid. To base this decision on the onfield position he has played for most of his career, and to say we have Geary and Brown instead is absolutely moronic. We are mid table for I50 conceded yet almost dead last for scores conceded. Our backline (outside or Carlisle, Robbo and Webb) is horrible and mostly substandard or very young. We are consistently disorganised and exposed. Christ, if his position is actually the main consideration to pass him up, then piss Geary or Savage off because Goddard is a better organiser and a better kick than both.

Say he would take the spot of a younger player and we want to give opportunities to White, Rice, Coff and Clarke. Say his leadership style isn't a good fit. Say that you don't believe he is flexible enough to play anywhere else but HBF (he is but that's not the point). Say he is looks cooked. Say he is too old / slow for the role we have envisioned. There are good reasons to overlook Goddard (*cough* leadership style *cough*), but the fact he has played a lot on the HBF in not one of them.

The fact our coach is saying leadership isn't an onfield need (and a need everywhere) shows me we are up sh*t creek without extremely significant change from the top.

He never said leadership wasn't an issue and acknowledged we needed more of it. They also talked about how Robbo being out for most of the year, combined with the loss of Joey has made us very disorganised. He stated we already have a lot of experience down back and listed all of Geary, Brown, Robbo, Carlisle and Webster so Goddard, playing the position he has does his best work throughout his career, isnt a good fit.

We need leadership and direction in our forward line and in the midfield more than we need it down back considering most of our players who are in that 25+ bracket are defenders.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

the one area i think we really need leadership, is in the midfield, specifically that bash and crash type. armo looks cooked and isn't playing there. koby gone.

we desperately need someone there. beams would be ideal, but is there anyone else available?

down back we are ok for experience i reckon

experiance maybe but do we have the smarts down there ? ... huge sterotype but most of our defenders are the more "see ball .. stop man get ball" type we dont really ahve a Heath Shaw type or Shannon Hurn who reads the game and set up the play from defence ... we tend to go with the get it out as quck as possible and hope it doesnt come back too soon

 

[StCicatriz]

experiance maybe but do we have the smarts down there ? ... huge sterotype but most of our defenders are the more "see ball .. stop man get ball" type we dont really ahve a Heath Shaw type or Shannon Hurn who reads the game and set up the play from defence ... we tend to go with the get it out as quck as possible and hope it doesnt come back too soon

i think we do. i think the backline has held up ok. if the mid field thats the issue. offensively primarily but also defensively. the defenders dont get the coverage they need from it. its not so much the organisation of the defensive line.

richo explained the beej decision really well i thought. it makes sense why they don't want him.

 

[saintbill]

so you would just gift games to the kids ??
lets learn from the Dee's mistakes not copy them ...
the Dee's gutted their list of senior tallent because they though their stable of good young prospects would be enough to lift them up through pumping games into them .. the problem is without the young guys having to fight their way into the team they became complacent ... the general level of standard to make the best 22 became lower and the team got nowhere wasting the development of a generation of their good kids .. finally they clued on to this and got guys in who were there to raise that base standard level to make the starting 22, it meant that instead of a kid getting an automatic walk up start some one else was "taking games off them " but guess what that meant the kid worked harder and he lifted his standards to be better and then when he did get his chance he made the most of it and was up to the standard to be competitive in the AFL ....
so im all for someone "taking games off" the kids as that means the kids have got to do more and be better to get into the team and when they do that benifits us greatly ...

Heck even GWS with all their early draft picks only became good once they brought in the experiance to set the higher base line 22 standards

If we get Goddard it would reek of desperation.

a) He is simply not that good anymore;
b) Has questionable leadership qualities anyway.

So to answer your question, yes I would rather gift games to the kids. Maybe they will surprise you. I am not going to get spooked by 1 example (the Dees). There are many other examples where teams that have gifted games to kids and it has benefited them enormously. Our problem is appalling leadership from the board down the coaching staff. Bringing in an angry over the hill Goddard does nothing for us.

I love BJ, but it is a complete waste of time bringing him back to the club, for the 2 reasons posted above.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

If we get Goddard it would reek of desperation.

a) He is simply not that good anymore;
b) Has questionable leadership qualities anyway.

So to answer your question, yes I would rather gift games to the kids. Maybe they will surprise you. I am not going to get spooked by 1 example (the Dees). There are many other examples where teams that have gifted games to kids and it has benefited them enormously. Our problem is appalling leadership from the board down the coaching staff. Bringing in an angry over the hill Goddard does nothing for us.

I love BJ, but it is a complete waste of time bringing him back to the club, for the 2 reasons posted above.

honestly i disagree ... gifting the kids a game my get them up to speed quicker but having to earn there spot and having a target to aspire towards is more important to their development ... i reckon just letting the kids go and allowing them to develop naturally will only get them to a certain point look at the last generation and who they came up with around them guys like Harvey , Burke, Peckett, Loewe, Jones ..... all these guys drove a standard that the kids aimed to reach , some of those guys like Rooey reached that standard quickly others took some time ...
understand that the club have ruled out a play for BJ , i disagree with it but we move on but lets not just gift kids a game for the sake of giving them a game ... earn it, deserve it and work your ass off to retain it..