Analysis Beveridge - where to from here?

[WallyStringhaus]

I have no problem with dropping players out of form.

The problem is that we have one set of rules for young players and another for older players which is not only unfair but also counterproductive.

If we had shown a bit more faith in our older players and a bit less in the young guys I think we would certainly have made finals in 2017 and potentially even scraped in in 2018.

I think we would also have had less players wanting to leave the club.

The Club and Bevo can't be blamed for this sort of behaviour;



Libba had a disastrous 2017 where he went from averaging in 2016, 20 possies a game, 14 goals and 16 goal assists down to 17 touches a game (less than Jong and Dale), 7 goals and 3 goal assists. In what universe does that sort of drop off (in dedication and form) warrant being selected ahead of younger players?

Stringer's goals, marks inside 50 and tackles inside 50 all dropped significantly from 2015 - 2017. As did his attitude and dedication towards rehab.

Biggs went from generating 81 inside 50's in 2016 to 28 in 2017. He had twice the amount of 1%ers in the GF then he did in 5 games total this year.

Dahl went from averaging 26 touches and kicking 9 goals in 2016 to 21 and 2 this year and had his former skipper question his motivation levels.

I understand your frustrations but I think they are being misdirected. I think Bev was smart enough to see the writing on the wall early in 2017 and has made the necessary changes...he is building a group capable of a run at sustained success.

 

[Proffessor]

One significant problem with the argument that the players were going so badly that changes had to be made.

We were going better before than we did after.

We may not have been firing on all cylinders but we were still well within striking distance before we started to self destruct.

Winx tends to hang back until it is time to run for home.

Imagine if the jockey pulled her up 1/3rd of the way through the race saying she just wasn't working hard enough.

 

[maddog37]

One significant problem with the argument that the players were going so badly that changes had to be made.

We were going better before than we did after.

We may not have been firing on all cylinders but we were still well within striking distance before we started to self destruct.

Winx tends to hang back until it is time to run for home.

Imagine if the jockey pulled her up 1/3rd of the way through the race saying she just wasn't working hard enough.

Methinks your horse racing knowledge is a touch thin Prof.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

One significant problem with the argument that the players were going so badly that changes had to be made.

We were going better before than we did after.

We may not have been firing on all cylinders but we were still well within striking distance before we started to self destruct.

Winx tends to hang back until it is time to run for home.

Imagine if the jockey pulled her up 1/3rd of the way through the race saying she just wasn't working hard enough.

Horses are prepped and trained in a meticulously hard environment. Elite training standards prevent the kind of piss poor performance that some of these blokes put forth over the last two years.

Lebron James finishes the grind of a 9 month season and is back in full training within a week or two. Its why his teams are so successful no matter where he plays.

Imagine if after winning her first Cox Plate that Winx went on a Liber in Vietnam type bender;


"After i finish this drink who wants to shave a portion of my mane! Woooooooooo!!"

Wouldn't matter how far back she was. She'd never win another bloody race!

 

[Braybrook Son]

Young had a great debut match, the second wasn't great but not as horrendous as those that followed.

After the GWS disaster it was completely inappropriate to keep him in the side whilst alternatives such as Roberts were available.

If we were down the bottom and not still with a chance of making finals then there may have been a stronger argument for giving him an extra chance but under the circumstances it was a terrible MC call that cost us finals as much as Stringer's hamstring injury, which ultimately saw him shown the door from the club.

Young had a shocker against GWS in 2017, but in his defence, we had about 20 games experience in the whole defensive 6 that night, it was the MC to blame for not playing another experienced defender that night. Roberts should’ve been picked. What shits me, is the fact Bevo seems to play favourites which I don’t like the look of. Pick players on merit. Not name!

 

[SonOfScray]

Yeah. Nah.

I can appreciate the wizardry in pulling enough threads and tropes in footy to build this narrative, just enough to pass the sniff test, but a little too thin to really bite into. It's seductive and I would not scoff at anyone for delving into this territory, but I am sceptical.

There has certainly been disruption at the club post-flag. Personnel changes in the footy dept, at an admin level and a huge reduction in experience on field. Each of these things in isolation could account for some of what we see.

I feel like the situation isn't overly complex. We had a good mix in 15/16, less so in 17/18 and certainly no reprieve from a catastrophic run of injury across the four seasons. The new "old" heads either weren't present, or fell away. Did we live up to expectations of a dynasty etc? Not at all.

C.F similar profile squads and whatever Bevo has been doing stacks up pretty well. Not satisfying, not something to celebrate but there is enough to show that I don't think he needs a monumental shift to get the squad performing at a high level across up to 26 games. More continuity (he has some influence on this with settled selection etc), experience individually and an upswing in form at either end of the list. Tactically he might need to shift to account for a new set strengths, which may not be the previous Men of Mayhem style. Think we just back him in and see where 19/20 ends up. I think finals and flags should still be on the agenda.

 

[Proffessor]

Young had a shocker against GWS in 2017, but in his defence, we had about 20 games experience in the whole defensive 6 that night, it was the MC to blame for not playing another experienced defender that night. Roberts should’ve been picked. What shits me, is the fact Bevo seems to play favourites which I don’t like the look of. Pick players on merit. Not name!

I think we agree.

I don't blame Young either it was an MC mistake.

 

[Proffessor]

Yeah. Nah.

I can appreciate the wizardry in pulling enough threads and tropes in footy to build this narrative, just enough to pass the sniff test, but a little too thin to really bite into. It's seductive and I would not scoff at anyone for delving into this territory, but I am sceptical.

There has certainly been disruption at the club post-flag. Personnel changes in the footy dept, at an admin level and a huge reduction in experience on field. Each of these things in isolation could account for some of what we see.

I feel like the situation isn't overly complex. We had a good mix in 15/16, less so in 17/18 and certainly no reprieve from a catastrophic run of injury across the four seasons. The new "old" heads either weren't present, or fell away. Did we live up to expectations of a dynasty etc? Not at all.

C.F similar profile squads and whatever Bevo has been doing stacks up pretty well. Not satisfying, not something to celebrate but there is enough to show that I don't think he needs a monumental shift to get the squad performing at a high level across up to 26 games. More continuity (he has some influence on this with settled selection etc), experience individually and an upswing in form at either end of the list. Tactically he might need to shift to account for a new set strengths, which may not be the previous Men of Mayhem style. Think we just back him in and see where 19/20 ends up. I think finals and flags should still be on the agenda.

I'm not calling for a monumental shift either.

I think subtle shifts are more appropriate and more likely to be sustainable.

 

[Scary_Foot_9]

You lost me at calling him Bev instead of Bevo quite honestly.

 

[JJHunter]

2016 has come and gone and I’m simply sick of talking about the flag like we were some sort of juggernaut and analysing everything since.
Can we and the press just move on from it and if u want analyse anything simply understand we finished 7th that year.

There clearly has been a collection of things that have gone wrong that have had us go from 7th to 10th to 13th. It’s not just one thing, or one person at fault. They last couple of years has been a collective balls up from the playing group to the medical and conditioning staff to the coaching group.

As this post is about the coach...

Beveridge is signed till the end of 2020.
If we miss finals again in 2019 and further slide down or remain where we are I can tell you people will come for his head. I’m not sure he sees the contract out if that happens.

I really get the feeling he isn’t happy. To compare his demeanour and attitude of 2015/2016 to now they are miles apart.

His performance on best and fairest night was flat and lifeless - one I’m willing to forgive if he was ill or under the weather - but it was simply poor.

He has spent the last few years an angry man on numerous topics and interactions with the afl and the afl media.

He has never not been part of success and imo it’s all just draining him. He has never been a man to stick around in the one place for lengthy periods so like I say should we miss again in 2019 and be bottom 4/5 I’m not expecting him to be coach by the end of 2020.

 

[Proffessor]

2016 has come and gone and I’m simply sick of talking about the flag like we were some sort of juggernaut and analysing everything since.
Can we and the press just move on from it and if u want analyse anything simply understand we finished 7th that year.

There clearly has been a collection of things that have gone wrong that have had us go from 7th to 10th to 13th. It’s not just one thing, or one person at fault. They last couple of years has been a collective balls up from the playing group to the medical and conditioning staff to the coaching group.

As this post is about the coach...

Beveridge is signed till the end of 2020.
If we miss finals again in 2019 and further slide down or remain where we are I can tell you people will come for his head. I’m not sure he sees the contract out if that happens.

I really get the feeling he isn’t happy. To compare his demeanour and attitude of 2015/2016 to now they are miles apart.

His performance on best and fairest night was flat and lifeless - one I’m willing to forgive if he was ill or under the weather - but it was simply poor.

He has spent the last few years an angry man on numerous topics and interactions with the afl and the afl media.

He has never not been part of success and imo it’s all just draining him. He has never been a man to stick around in the one place for lengthy periods so like I say should we miss again in 2019 and be bottom 4/5 I’m not expecting him to be coach by the end of 2020.

I tend to think we still had the best team in 2016, not by a large margin but enough in the end.

The reason we ended up 7th was partially due to the fact it was very close between the top 8 teams but also because we dropped some games we probably shouldn't have.

Our tendency to shoot ourselves in the foot at selection under Bev didn't suddenly appear in 2017. I think there was a low grade condition that was present earlier, it has just gotten worse.

If we can somehow help Bev control his over zealous preferential treatment tendencies we should be back in business.

 

[Libba39]

Those 3 are a good start, plus there would be a few more that would have felt pretty hard done by in terms of selection and B and F voting.

Why are so many previously loyal players looking to exit?

So many???

-Hamling was already leaving whether we won the flag or not.
-Stringer seems to have been self-inflicted and little to do with the coach.
-Dahlhaus we offered a contract but he wanted more so bye-bye
-Roughead probably fits the bill but if English comes good he won't get a game ahead of him or Trengove.
-Adams hardly played and wants to leave so nothing to do with loyalty from the coach.

Therefore struggling to see the logic in your argument.

 

[Proffessor]

So many???

-Hamling was already leaving whether we won the flag or not.
-Stringer seems to have been self-inflicted and little to do with the coach.
-Dahlhaus we offered a contract but he wanted more so bye-bye
-Roughead probably fits the bill but if English comes good he won't get a game ahead of him or Trengove.
-Adams hardly played and wants to leave so nothing to do with loyalty from the coach.

Therefore struggling to see the logic in your argument.

In addition to those players who have left there has also been rumours about other players considering leaving, e.g. Wallis and Libba.

I'm not suggesting things are terrible but clearly they aren't all beer and skittles either.

Early in the season I was starting to await team announcements with similar trepidation to the McCartney years where we continually selected teams that seemed to based more on the coach's personality preferences than performance and tactical needs. This invariably creates dissent amongst the playing group.

The same can be said for the B and F results, which would be laughable if they occurred at another club. I find them scary rather than humorous.

It is bad enough for supporters to think that the judgements of our coaches are clearly skewed. Imagine you are an employee and your managment shows clear favouritism to other employees, how do think you would feel?

I recall hearing stories of Brian Lake and Adam Cooney laughing at the results of the Bulldogs B and F count just before Lake left to become a vital ingredient in Hawthorn's triple premiership.

 

[maddog37]

Cooney and Lake were gone before Bev.

Wallis and Libba were offered low contracts based on output.

 

[Proffessor]

Cooney and Lake were gone before Bev.

Wallis and Libba were offered low contracts based on output.

The story about Cooney and Lake was meant to indicate how skewed B&F voting results can impact on a players opinion of their coaches.
If Lake wasn't sure whether he should stay or go before that B&F he would have certainly been convinced afterwards that McCartney was clueless and it was time to leave.

The results from this years B&F were also ridiculous and could have similarly damaged the

standing of the ​

coaching group with some players.

 

[maddog37]

The story about Cooney and Lake was meant to indicate how skewed B&F voting results can impact on a players opinion of their coaches.
If Lake wasn't sure whether he should stay or go before that B&F he would have certainly been convinced afterwards that McCartney was clueless and it was time to leave.

The results from this years B&F were also ridiculous and could have similarly damaged the

standing of the ​

coaching group with some players.

Possibly but Lake and Cooney have always been sooks. Talented sooks though.

If a player isn’t getting votes then he isn’t doing the job the coaches want so indirectly the coach perhaps isn’t too upset if they crack the sads and bail out.

 

[Proffessor]

Possibly but Lake and Cooney have always been sooks. Talented sooks though.

If a player isn’t getting votes then he isn’t doing the job the coaches want so indirectly the coach perhaps isn’t too upset if they crack the sads and bail out.

The B and F results show the accumulated judgements of the coaching group regarding the best performed players in matches throughout the season.

Generally they help people recognise consistently good performers.
However occasionally they reveal major bias in the judgements of the coaching group and when that happens, if you are a player that believes that they are not being judged fairly then you are probably better off looking for another club.

 

[immortalmike]

You are looking at it wrong. It’s not players wanting to leave but the club pushing players out.

That's an assumption you've both made.

 

[stefoid]

I find hawthorns trade policy interesting in that they can bank on their success and their 'system' to be worth some kind of discount wrt players wanting to come to their club. In the end, that is the thing that matters most at the trade table.


We cant do that. We havent been successful enough recently, and our once famous spirit of '16 after the grannie is long gone.


So whilst people look from the outside and see this player or that player gone, and why are we bringing in these fringe players from other sides, maybe we need to take in the bigger picture. As spectators, we look at the club and generally argue about what we can plainly see - a playing list of statistics such as contesed posessions, goals or marks. And we get upset if we trade out a guy who gets more kicks and disposals than another guy we trade in, or bring in a guy who is not in our best 22 (assuming no injuries or drop offs in form)


What the players see is their mates, their salaries, their relationship with the other players and the coach, and the overall success of their careers - they see a workplace and a life. Nobody wants to work for a s**t company with a s**t boss, basically.


You can argue about 'we dont know what the club is really like on the inside, youre just speculating...' thats true. All we can go on is the fact that players like Wingard and Scully chose to go to the hawthorn for less than what we were offering them. And this is a consistant trend, not a one-of. And its a huge deal! Its like hawthorn has a 25% f/s bonus system working for them permanently.


So one thing we've noticed about the players we have traded in, fringe though they are, is that other fans have come on and said this guy is a solid citizen, sorry to see him go, hope he does well, trains the house down, rah rah. Trengrove, Crozier, Lloyd and Duryea all got similar responses, not the 'ha ha , guy is a lemon sucked in' type of post that is more common.


And the players we have traded out or who have retired because of 'reasons' - caution rampant speculation ahead - have had rumours / assumptions about their behaviour off field and their relationship with other players or the coach.


To put it another way, although more Morrises and less Stringers wont improve our measurable statistics on an individual basis, it may , over time, improve the most important statistic - sustained success - by building a culture that can absorb and correct the occasional talented dickhead, and that allows us to atttract and retain talented players for less than the going rate. And most importantly of all, it may get us back to a list that was - very briefly and almost to a man - united and committed to team success.

 

[Proffessor]

To put it another way, although more Morrises and less Stringers wont improve our measurable statistics on an individual basis, it may , over time, improve the most important statistic - sustained success

I think you have summarised a general view that seems to have dominated our club for most of the last 20-30 years.

The principle flaw in the argument, occassionly termed a 'no dickheads' policy is that determining whether a person is a 'dickhead' or a 'solid citizen' is highly subjective. The people making the judgements are flawed individuals themselves.

Such a perspective also seems to embolden clubs to dispense with talented but perhaps more complex individuals without sufficient cause.

It is interesting that a team supposedly composing so many flawed individuals was able to achieve the ultimate success for the Dogs, where previously so many solid citizens had unrewarded careers in terms of team success.

It is also interesting that the missing ingredient in the Hawks triple premiership was not considered to be a solid citizen at our club when we handed him to them for virtually nothing.

 

[VL3OJ]

Of all the current available coaches, it is my belief that Bevo is by far the best so why these continuous threads.
Stringer - thank god - played five great games with us total.
Dalhaus - more off the ground issues rather than on however it affected him and the team game day. Good luck and so long
Libba - clearly at the cross roads but a number of others had their cards stamped already (See Dal and Stringer)

All departures apart from Adams, I can understand and I can see Bevo giving it a tilt in 2020. Give him the time, players that have played 50 games of football and not all when the team has been that short due to injury. As a young team, we gave more than expected in the second half of the season.

keep the faith

 

[Munnez]

I think Bev saw the truth of our position a lot quicker than anyone else and decided to move on accordingly.

I feel like we weren't the best team in the AFL in 2016 but We were by far the best side in the Finals. And as good ad they were the chances of repeating that success was minimal

 

[stefoid]

I think you have summarised a general view that seems to have dominated our club for most of the last 20-30 years.

The principle flaw in the argument, occassionly termed a 'no dickheads' policy is that determining whether a person is a 'dickhead' or a 'solid citizen' is highly subjective. The people making the judgements are flawed individuals themselves.

Such a perspective also seems to embolden clubs to dispense with talented but perhaps more complex individuals without sufficient cause.

It is interesting that a team supposedly composing so many flawed individuals was able to achieve the ultimate success for the Dogs, where previously so many solid citizens had unrewarded careers in terms of team success.

It is also interesting that the missing ingredient in the Hawks triple premiership was not considered to be a solid citizen at our club when we handed him to them for virtually nothing.

I dont know the inner workings of the club/player goings on and relationships, this year or 20 years ago: who is an irredeemably negative influence and who is not - how could I? How could anyone from outside the club? Im explaining what I think the coach is trying to do given what I can see - pushing certain talented players out who have rumour clouds over their heads - and getting another bunch of players in who are widely considered to be 'good clubmen'. It seems like a fairly concerted campaign.

Whatever the ingredients for the hawks recent premiership were, our coach is in a pretty good position to know, as he was there at the time.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I dont know the inner workings of the club/player goings on and relationships, this year or 20 years ago: who is an irredeemably negative influence and who is not - how could I? How could anyone from outside the club? Im explaining what I think the coach is trying to do given what I can see - pushing certain talented players out who have rumour clouds over their heads - and getting another bunch of players in who are widely considered to be 'good clubmen'. It seems like a fairly concerted campaign.

Whatever the ingredients for the hawks recent premiership were, our coach is in a pretty good position to know, as he was there at the time.

The cohesion that was built up in 2015-16 evaporated over the next 2 years, that's indisputable. Who fractured the group, and why, is being addressed. Bevo wants people of good character above all. After all, we won the flag without any stars.

 

[Proffessor]

The cohesion that was built up in 2015-16 evaporated over the next 2 years, that's indisputable. Who fractured the group, and why, is being addressed. Bevo wants people of good character above all. After all, we won the flag without any stars.

Therein lies the problem.

I think the belief that some party boys fractured the group is seriously ill founded.

If Bev wants to address who was most responsible for the loss of cohesion he should go and stand infront of a mirror.

Let me be clear, I don't want Luke gone. I just want him to wake up and recognise it wasn't senior players letting him down that was most responsible for our fall from grace. It was his Football department's mismanagement of the playing group that was most wanting.

Too many poor selection decisions. Too much blaming of players,and being too quick to let players go rather than trying to manage them through tough times. Too much preferential treatment and not enough fairness across the board.

If we want to improve next season, he needs to lift his game more than anyone.