Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[MinerBoy]

Wow.

He used smiley faces. It was ******* hilarious


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[WWSD]

Agree scrimshaw is a soft as a banana might be 2 years.. he got the nickname of pea heart at the suns

St Kilda would know all about pea hearts. I mean ya’ll drafted Clark, Coffield and Battle. Talk about butchering the 2016 draft.

Meanwhile the Hawks first pick in that draft was Worpel who’s already better than those three spuds combined.

No wonder St Kilda have won only 1 flag in over 60 years.

 

[threesixpio]

Talk about down grades.. Burton is a gem scrimshaw will be out of the afl in 3 years..

You do a lot of hoping with your projections.

Spose hope is all you got ay?

 

[Vindicater]

Talk about down grades.. Burton is a gem scrimshaw will be out of the afl in 3 years..

I like to bash the Hawkes as much as anybody and even I can see this is dumb.

 

[Blackhawk42]

If they didn’t pick up Chingard and kept Burton and pick 15 for Butters they would be in a better position to rebuild.

A lot of us thought that at the time. I believe it even more now. Had we taken Duursma with the pick we gave up and kept Burton the next 5 years wouldn't look as bleak as they currently do.

 

[TylerDurden]

Talk about down grades.. Burton is a gem scrimshaw will be out of the afl in 3 years..

 

[stfan]

St Kilda would know all about pea hearts. I mean ya’ll drafted Clark, Coffield and Battle. Talk about butchering the 2016 draft.

Meanwhile the Hawks first pick in that draft was Worpel who’s already better than those three spuds combined.

I do understand that facts are not your strong point but of the three 2016 draftees you listed 2 of them were not actually 2016 draftees.

The one out of three that you got right is Battle. He has had an excellent year at CHB. While the rising star is mainly a midfielders award his ranking in the rising star stats this year is very high.

Opinions vary of course, but I think the group of people listing Battle as a spud would be a small and shall we say very select group.

 

[Dede]

You do a lot of hoping with your projections.

Spose hope is all you got ay?

Same hope the hawks had that Chad would help them win games come finals time..

 

[Scotland]

I do understand that facts are not your strong point but of the three 2016 draftees you listed 2 of them were not actually 2016 draftees.

The one out of three that you got right is Battle. He has had an excellent year at CHB. While the rising star is mainly a midfielders award his ranking in the rising star stats this year is very high.

Opinions vary of course, but I think the group of people listing Battle as a spud would be a small and shall we say very select group.

Worpel wasn't in the 2016 draft either.

 

[threesixpio]

Same hope the hawks had that Chad would help them win games come finals time..

Exactly the same

 

[Sirlemsip]

Having no top 10 picks is different to no pick in the top 45.

It is.

How have all those number 1 picks been for you?
How many Finals have you won in the past decade?

I think that Carlton (and Melbourne) have shown that a full 'bottom out' approach doesn't work.

Its all about balance in list management, success in player development and luck with injuries.

 

[threesixpio]

I’m thinking getting Cognilio could increase our success

 

[Caj]

I’m thinking getting Cognilio could increase our success

Even if you get Coniglio, and Mitchell returns as good as he was pre-injury in 2020, its still not enough to make the Hawks a serious premiership threat given the current state of the list.

 

[footyfan1978]

A lot of us thought that at the time. I believe it even more now. Had we taken Duursma with the pick we gave up and kept Burton the next 5 years wouldn't look as bleak as they currently do.

You also gave up a pick 35 too. So in reality could easily been a time to not do that trade, keep Burton, draft someone like Duursma with your first round pick and with the other second round pick traded guys like Jack Ross, Marty Hore or Matthew Parker still able to be drafted. I personally would take Duursma, Burton and Parker over Wingard in a heartbeat if you had your time again. That trade was head scratcher at the time and even more so now.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

I’m thinking getting Cognilio could increase our success

So would Tim Kelly

 

[threesixpio]

So would Tim Kelly

And Nic Nat

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

And Nic Nat

Just re-signed so he might not be available. Harley Bennell fits the bill.

 

[Pinnell]

Typical HAwks supporters on this thread. This time last year those in the know claimed they had Tom Lynch in the bag. Then it was Dylan Shiel... And now its Coniglio....the more confidence their supporters show the more likely he ends up somewhere completely different. And all the while their list goes backwards whilst they ignore the draft

 

[WWSD]

Typical HAwks supporters on this thread. This time last year those in the know claimed they had Tom Lynch in the bag. Then it was Dylan Shiel... And now its Coniglio....the more confidence their supporters show the more likely he ends up somewhere completely different. And all the while their list goes backwards whilst they ignore the draft

Are we taking advice now from Carlton fans about rebuilding?

 

[TallyHawk]

Are we taking advice now from Carlton fans about rebuilding?

It would appear so, green shoots and all.


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[jackenny]

An interesting perspective. I thought S Mitchell was the most influential player on the ground in the FIRST half of the 2014 grannie, whereas Hodge's best work was done after half time when the Hawks already had the game won. His efforts fresh in the minds of the Norm Smith voters. Always considered Mitchell a big threat as he initiated a lot of clean takeaways from clearances, especially in the centre square.

I always saw that Norm Smith as Hodge's right after the preliminary final against Port Adelaide. Sam Mitchell was a smidgen better than Hodge during the Grand Final, but Luke Hodge was an absolute rock and they wouldn't have even got there without him. In comparison, Sam Mitchell had a very ordinary game against Port Adelaide (weirdly, he's listed in the Hawk's best for that day, so I watched the game again to see if my memory was shoddy, but it wasn't - was absolutely average on the day - definitely a case of people just looking at the stat sheet and not watching what he actually did with the ball).

I would rate Sam higher than Tom at this stage, but Sam has the benefit of his career being complete while Tom's career has only reached its halfway mark. So Tom has the chance to still pip Sam by acquiring more brownlows and other honours. Luckily, Tom has the benefit of Sam being part of Hawthorn's coaching staff now, so can learn from the man himself.

In regard to the topic: I know people are giving Hawthorn s**t for the Wingard trade, but it hasn't even been a year into it and Wingard's had an injury prone season, so I am willing to give it a couple more seasons to see where they stand. People are presenting Burton and Durrsma as shining lights that Wingard cost them, but they're both half-back flankers... as if losing a couple half-back flankers are going to be a list manager's undoing... I mean, the fact Burton almost won a Rising Star and Durrsma is being lauded so highly in his first year playing in that position should tell you how easy it is to draft a half-back flanker. Hell, Hawthorn have plenty in their side as it is. Do you want to know what was really the undoing of Hawthorn's list management? Vickery and Lynch. If either one of those was successfully recruited or were determined to turn their AFL career around (looking at Ty for this), then they'd be in a lot better position. But that isn't the case so they find themselves in their current position.

Honestly, I think Clarkson needs to move away from his "everyone's a utility" idea, though. Game has moved on from that. Gunston and Breust are being absolutely wasted as they run around like headless chooks. Just look at Charlie Curnow's heat maps during this season. Before and after Bolton's sacking. Used as a tall utility during Bolton's reign and runs around like a headless chook. After his sacking, sticks inside fifty-metres and kicks seven goals in a game. Basically, it seems a lot more sensible to have your actual forwards play in the forward-line rather than move one of your best defenders (Sicily) there instead.

edit: Do you know who else tried putting their best intercept mark defender in the forward line? Beveridge. With Easton Wood. How did that turn out?

 

[WWSD]

I always saw that Norm Smith as Hodge's right after the preliminary final against Port Adelaide. Sam Mitchell was a smidgen better than Hodge during the the Grand Final, but Luke Hodge was an absolute rock and they wouldn't have even got there without him. In comparison, Sam Mitchell had a very ordinary game against Port Adelaide (weirdly, he's listed in the Hawk's best for that day, so I watched the game again to see if my memory was shoddy, but it wasn't - was absolutely average on the day - definitely a case of people just looking at the stat sheet and not watching what he actually did with the ball).

I would rate Sam higher than Tom at this stage, but Sam has the benefit of his career being complete while Tom's career has only reached its halfway mark. So Tom has the chance to still pip Sam by acquiring more brownlows and other honours. Luckily, Tom has the benefit of Sam being part of Hawthorn's coaching staff now, so can learn from the man himself.

In regard to the topic: I know people are giving Hawthorn **** for the Wingard trade, but it hasn't even been a year into it and Wingard's had an injury prone season, so I am willing to give it a couple more seasons to see where they stand. People are presenting Burton and Durrsma as shining lights that Wingard cost them, but they're both half-back flankers... as if losing a couple half-back flankers are going to be a list manager's undoing... I mean, the fact Burton almost won a Rising Star and Durrsma is being lauded so highly in his first year playing in that position should tell you how easy it is to draft a half-back flanker. Hell, Hawthorn have plenty in their side as it is. Do you want to know what was really the undoing of Hawthorn's list management? Vickery and Lynch. If either one of those was successfully recruited or were determined to turn their AFL career around (looking at Ty for this), then they'd be in a lot better position. But that isn't the case so they find themselves in their current position.

Honestly, I think Clarkson needs to move away from his "everyone's a utility" idea, though. Game has moved on from that. Gunston and Breust are being absolutely wasted as they run around like headless chooks. Just look at Charlie Curnow's heat maps during this season. Before and after Bolton's sacking. Used as a tall utility during Bolton's reign and runs around like a headless chook. After his sacking, sticks inside fifty-metres and kicks seven goals in a game. Basically, it seems a lot more sensible to have your actual forwards play in the forward-line rather than move one of your best defenders (Sicily) there instead.

I’ll trade you Gunston, Breust and Smith for pick 2.

Only Joking.

 

[threesixpio]

Typical HAwks supporters on this thread. This time last year those in the know claimed they had Tom Lynch in the bag. Then it was Dylan Shiel... And now its Coniglio....the more confidence their supporters show the more likely he ends up somewhere completely different. And all the while their list goes backwards whilst they ignore the draft

Clarko to Carlton

 

[daniel23]

It's now obvious they need to hit the draft but with player movements happening more then ever it may only take 1/2 seasons to get back on track and being bold and aggressive generally in the off season I back the club in to get it right .
Hawks no doubt have the worst kpp depth so it will be interesting to see how they address that but as a core group of 26 and under I don't mind what the club has atm .
Sicily, Mitchell, o'meara , Wingard, Hardwick, worpel, impey are all good players a team can be built around and outside of those players I'd say anyone is up for trade .

Port as an example look on the right track with what they did last season in nailing 3 early picks aswell as bringing in Burton. It's asham they have a terrible coach but I like what they did .


Geelong have done well in nailing mature ages and have set them self up for another crack at it for 1/3 seasons but like hawks there star's are starting to be in the wrong age bracket . But none the less rejuvenated there list fairly quickly also.

 

[jackenny]

I’ll trade you Gunston, Breust and Smith for pick 2.

Only Joking.

I would take that offer in a heartbeat.

Not even joking.