They can claim what they like. As pointed out, the management claim what suits them. I'm just looking at the reality.
But hey, you just follow what they say. Fine.
Its just a point of discussion. Don't lose your knickers over it.
Expansion Proposals for a Truly National AFL
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They can claim what they like. As pointed out, the management claim what suits them. I'm just looking at the reality.
But hey, you just follow what they say. Fine.
Its just a point of discussion. Don't lose your knickers over it.
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- #802
It is just a discussion, No one is losing their knickers over anything.
Blackas87
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you could argue the 1897 VFL was a continuation of awarding the Victorian champion. Only 2 clubs from the 1896 VFA didn’t make it to the VFL. The VFA had to bring in weaker clubs to have a league.
RedV3x
It's about time some mods started being fair
It would seem that applies to you.
It is quite logical that a breakaway group can have lineage back towards it's routes but is a new identity moving forward.
megadeth86
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No, Footscray JUST was famously relegated after a 2-0 loss to Melbourne Knights at the end of the 1989 season, the last of the winter seasons. A highlights package is up on YouTube.
Some clubs might have been removed, as opposed to relegated. What about the case of Preston Makedonia, for example?
This is from the Preston Lions' Wiki page:
Preston Makedonia continued to compete successfully in the NSL for the next 13 years, achieving their best finish in 1987 as runner-up in the Southern Division Championship. In 1992 Preston Makedonia took out the prestigious Dockerty Cup in a thrilling penalty shootout against arch rivals South Melbourne. However financial difficulties led to poor performances and in 1993 Preston Makedonia played their last match in the NSL.
I also wonder what the Premier Leaguel broke away from? They took with them all the lower divisions and clubs.
Imagine if the VFL did this in 1897? Eight clubs are breaking away to form a super League…… But umm the VFA premier replaces the VFL wooden spooner each year…
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The EPL broke away from the Football League - a whole stack of then Football league clubs left together. The fact that the pyramid was welded back together was due to the FA supporting the EPL formation - the EPL was even based in the FA offices - and not really getting along with the Football League.
This would be the equivelant of the VFL leaving in 1897, but then having the ANFC force the VFA into bed with it.
During the 1991–92 season, the First Division clubs resigned from the Football League en masse and on 20 February 1992, the Premier League was formed as a limited company working out of an office at the Football Association's then headquarters in Lancaster Gate.[21] This meant a break-up of the 104-year-old Football League that had operated until then with four divisions; the Premier League would operate with a single division and the Football League with three. There was no change in competition format; the same number of teams competed in the top flight, and promotion and relegation between the Premier League and the new First Division remained on the same terms as between the old First and Second Divisions.
aaaaah so they got very close to having a closed league? Smart move by the FA. It’s like the Mentals song “If you leave me, can I come too?”
Recently some top clubs in Europe wanted a closed super league but was stopped by the powers of UEFA and FIFA.
They should have ignored the threats of players not being able to represent their country. They would have won in the end with public outcry wanting to see the best players in the World Cup and other tournaments…
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The biggest honour in soccer like most sports is to play for your country
As far as the professional sports go, that is unambiguously true in only rugby union and cricket
It is highly unlikely that is true in soccer which would have no doubt played out if super league had happened.
It is certainly not true in:
-american football
-basketball
-baseball
-and of course the Australian national game of Australian football
Rugby league is the funny one. International rugby league has very low cred even among most of the sports followers.....and yet there are certain sub section that pine for it to be bigger. With those it is the product of a gnawing inferiority complex in both directions - it plays second fiddle to the AFL as a club competition and second fiddle to rugby union in terms of international credibility. It forms this awful double helix of insecurity in these people. For all they suffer the sport can't even sell out its world cup final
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If you're a top soccer player, earning $1 mill per week somewhere in Europe, who happens to hail from some crappy 3rd world country, more than likely, you don't give two hoots about whether you represent your country.
In fact, you can live in a fantastic country like Australia, and still view international honours as secondary to earning a mozza playing for a wealthy club, as we are currently seeing with some Australian cricketers, and have seen before with Australian soccer players.
Sometimes these sportsmen are guilted into representing Australia, but truthfully, if your a professional athlete earning a good living from a wealthy club - why would you care about whether you represent your country or not?
Not everyone is interested in wrapping a flag around themselves (with another nation's emblem on it) or pretending to enjoy singing your crappy national anthem.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
In fact, you can live in a fantastic country like Australia, and still view international honours as secondary to earning a mozza playing for a wealthy club, as we are currently seeing with some Australian cricketers, and have seen before with Australian soccer players.
Sometimes these sportsmen are guilted into representing Australia, but truthfully, if your a professional athlete earning a good living from a wealthy club - why would you care about whether you represent your country or not?
Not everyone is interested in wrapping a flag around themselves (with another nation's emblem on it) or pretending to enjoy singing your crappy national anthem.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
RedV3x
It's about time some mods started being fair
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You have obviously haven't seen any games in the past from the Africans nations cup and what's going on in Europe at the moment with their nations cup. Look at the the highlights from the Denmark v Russia game and then tell me them Danes don't like playing for their country. Look at the passion the Scots showed when then played England a few days ago.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
I'd actually say this is largely untrue given that the African Cup of Nations has typically been played in January and every team that qualifies typically gets a full squad and players miss out on weeks playing for their clubs.
They changed this eventually - but look at the quality of squads at the 2017 AFCON, for example:
2017 Africa Cup of Nations squads - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Look at Zlatan…. Didn’t give a hoot about the Swedish national team for a while..,
If a player has the option on a multi million contract, then most would probably choose this over playing for their nation.
In ice hockey WC is hardly represented by NHL players.
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- May 13, 2012
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Correct, it's the case in plenty of sports.
Although, I'm sure Massimiliano Vieri sung the Australian national anthem with gusto on the few occasions he represented Australia.
In any advanced professional sport, it's club over country any day of the week.
The majority of the world's nation states are cobbled together political entities and are a direct consequence of European imperialism.
For anyone to think that their citizens actually care about representing some artificial nation state is sheer folly.
On the other hand - clubs really do matter.
Of course, one problem we have in Australia, is that there are no real professional soccer clubs, rather, they are franchises owned by wealthy individuals.
In that case, more than likely, you will care more about playing for the socceroos than playing for a franchise owned by a foreigner.
No one is doubting that the players that commit to an international contest are not pretty passionate and committed to it during the game. Even American NBA basketballers that historically, they have a hard time getting to commit to play for team USA, are pretty into it once in the team and game time starts.
Doesn't mean those players do not rate their NBA careers WAAAY higher than the prospect of national team duties.
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The Vieri family grew up in Sydney. Christan Vieri was a very talented cricket player when he was growing up IIRC.
Nah. What you are saying sounds like European imperialism. Complete arrogance. You are basically saying they are fake countries. They may be created countries, but they exist and the people do care about them. As mentioned above, the African Nations Cup is a big deal. You tell Drogba he didn't care about Ivory Coast, despite playing over 100 times for his country.
History is history. how about you don't generalise for a whole continent.
International representation is complicated. Martin Boyle first set foot in this country to represent it. We had 2 sets of brother playing against each other at the world cup once. But you are representing the fans of the country. and fans care. What is sport without no fans. I think we have learned that in recent year. I can name a list of players who really cared. You could name a smaller list of ones who dont really. We could be here for hours. Or you could just watch the celebrations once you win the world cup or Euros. or watch the video below
Goran Pandev, played over 500 times in Serie A. What was best for his career would not play for his small country. but instead, he played for them over 100 times.
people are allowed to care for more than 1 thing. And soccer works in a way that you can.
A GWS fan calling other teams clubs franchises. I thought you would be better than that.
Most pro soccer clubs are owned by wealthy individuals. Not sure what your point is regarding the A-league outside bad-mouthing it(yawn). Are you saying all soccer clubs are franchises? If do, then go to a Scottish pub and tell Rangers fans that. You will either get a free beer or glassing, depending on the pub.
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Wowah you hit a (very) raw nerve with this one
The crux of it is correct - playing at the top end of europe clearly trumps international representation in soccer now whatever portion of that is money or prestige
And in regards to the abusive attack on you in response to your post - clearly the Giants have demonstrated through the several top class players that will play out their careers at the Giants that they are a club, as well as it ultimately being a member based club. It is club growing in to itself. You cannot say this about the A League franchises. They were mostly created to acquire a League licences and players have moved around like pass the parcel. They are very much franchises.
Your nationalism / imperialism is an interesting one that is worthy of further exploration. Is it possible that national identities shaped by imperial powers out of colonies of sojourn in part tend to be more smitten by european soccer because of the legacy impact of that european imperialsim. I.e. a willfully adopted inferiority complex grasping desperately for affirmation from the old ruler?
Interesting
- Moderator
- #821
I would like it if you stopped trolling me with your responses, either directly or indirectly.Wowah you hit a (very) raw nerve with this one
The crux of it is correct - playing at the top end of europe clearly trumps international representation in soccer now whatever portion of that is money or prestige
And in regards to the abusive attack on you in response to your post - clearly the Giants have demonstrated through the several top class players that will play out their careers at the Giants that they are a club, as well as it ultimately being a member based club. It is club growing in to itself. You cannot say this about the A League franchises. They were mostly created to acquire a League licences and players have moved around like pass the parcel. They are very much franchises.
Your nationalism / imperialism is an interesting one that is worthy of further exploration. Is it possible that national identities shaped by imperial powers out of colonies of sojourn in part tend to be more smitten by european soccer because of the legacy impact of that european imperialsim. I.e. a willfully adopted inferiority complex grasping desperately for affirmation from the old ruler?
Interesting
For example, smiling faces and saying something hit a raw nerve. your immaturity is what gives me a raw nerve. I should be allowed to post on something I disagree on without "oooohhhh" or "arrghhhh" from people in the background. If you have a point, cool. But leave the added Noobpie stuff. I am tired of it.
and saying I was abusive in my attack. I will clarify here at least and give you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't call GWS a franchise. I questioned why a GWS fan would say that when they have to put up with that a lot elsewhere.
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Tonatopia
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Im thinking that the most effective way of giving our game international exposure and therefore international revenue, is to turn clubs like WCE and Richmond FC into powerhouses such as Manchester United or Real Madrid. Big money, Highly paid players and full house spectacles.
Applying financial limitations may spread premiership success amongst the clubs, but raw, brutal capitalism builds exposure.
I want Dustin Martin to be payed $5m p/a and a transfer fee from Bendigo to be worth $20M.
I want RFC to be contesting finals campaigns every year for the next 20 years.
I want battlers to sneak up every 20 years and 'steal' a Premiership.
I want relegation and promotion.
I think equalization is a flawed model which breeds entitlement and lack of responsibility.
Only regression will stop a free football league from forming, including teams from Darwin, Canberra, Cairns, Hobart, Bendigo, Albury ect, it is just a matter of time before it eventuates.
Applying financial limitations may spread premiership success amongst the clubs, but raw, brutal capitalism builds exposure.
I want Dustin Martin to be payed $5m p/a and a transfer fee from Bendigo to be worth $20M.
I want RFC to be contesting finals campaigns every year for the next 20 years.
I want battlers to sneak up every 20 years and 'steal' a Premiership.
I want relegation and promotion.
I think equalization is a flawed model which breeds entitlement and lack of responsibility.
Only regression will stop a free football league from forming, including teams from Darwin, Canberra, Cairns, Hobart, Bendigo, Albury ect, it is just a matter of time before it eventuates.
The amount of money in football is limited.
Footy fans have a limit on how much they will pay and how often they will attend.
There is a limit on how much sponsorship a club can get and on how much media will pay.
You talk of powerhouse teams, but that can only come by those clubs sucking up a larger share of footy income.
If you add lower leagues, that then have to try to suck up all the regional income. Which they may fail at, and die, or succeed at, and local footy will die.
I also think super clubs kill interest in the league, not grow it. Because no matter how "super" they get, they will not be big enough to make internationals care about them. Do you think an NBA fan cares if Dusty makes $5 mill?
Your model seems to be a magic pudding model. Miraculously increasing funding to match the miraculously increasing league.
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In my opinion 99% of club players in team sport are hirelings, mercenaries, who prostitute themselves to the highest bidder, while a person who plays their country do it for love. Anybody who thinks all players in their team are doing it for love are deluded. They are there for the money, and nothing wrong with that,but that's the reason they are at a club. MONEY.
