When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

[HBF]

Many of your contemporaries want to dig at any other club that moves whilst there own house continually burns to the ground. This still amazes me.


Carlton seem a poisoned chalice at the moment. I hope Vossy (if the rumours are true) goes better than his time at Brisbane. The wraps on him are big, he's obviously developed and learnt a hell of a lot since those times at Brisbane.

Wish him all the best, the stakes are already high before he steps foot in the joint/

Agree with that first statement. We have been awful for pretty much the majority of this century. That's ALOT of mistakes made at the footy club

 

[LordLucifer]

I'm continually amazed the "ITK's" on the Carlton board were saying it was Clarkson, yet none of them mentioned anything about SPS wanting to leave. Total sh*t show!

I was just about to post the same thing.

It's not the fact that posters put supposed info out there, it's the constant undying adulation they receive even when it turns out they were not even close.

 

[faible]

totally baseless

How do you know they're totally baseless?

 

[Toump Ass]

I'm continually amazed the "ITK's" on the Carlton board were saying it was Clarkson, yet none of them mentioned anything about SPS wanting to leave. Total sh*t show!

I'm genuinely amazed how many supporters still fall for all of this crap after the Oliver stuff last year.

No club in the league would hand over their first round pick for a player like Saad (or sign a Free Agent like Williams on massive coin) when one of the best 2 or 3 players in the competition is begging to come to you .

"There won' be an announcement, unless there's an announcement!"

 

[HBF]

I was just about to post the same thing.

It's not the fact that posters put supposed info out there, it's the constant undying adulation they receive even when it turns out they were not even close.

Pretty sure we're on the same page mate.

 

[HBF]

I'm genuinely amazed how many supporters still fall for all of this crap after the Oliver stuff last year.

No club in the league would hand over their first round pick for a player like Saad (or sign a Free Agent like Williams on massive coin) when one of the best 2 or 3 players in the competition is begging to come to you .

"There won' be an announcement, unless there's an announcement!"

I couldn't believe that either. But yeah posters still fall for it hook line and sinker.

 

[WillHayward]

Is the Bluemour thread on Carlton's board satire? Has to be, surely

Extraordinary. 100s of pages of delusional horse shit.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Firstly, I didn't say probably an open hand. That was from Voss.
I just speculated on what that could mean.
Voss gets leniency for an incident that happened 15 years ago, which he pleaded guilty to and copped his punishment. Didn't have a prior history of violence and hasn't had one since, to my knowledge.
So, yeah, he's paid his dues.

Was Lyon actually charged with anything, or was it settled before it got that far?
We don't know a lot about it. I believe it was rumoured that he made a comment about a co-worker's breasts, who was pregnant at the time. There was also reports of a $100k settlement. While that doesn't guarantee guilt or innocence, history tells us that accused parties who settle for monetary values, usually aren't innocent.

I don't believe that should necessarily have ruled him out for the job, just as I don't think Voss' 15yo indiscretion should. That doesn't mean that Carlton shouldn't request a chat with Lyon about it before making a decision on his suitability. I don't see how that could be considered unnecessarily harsh.

I agree, Carlton should ask the question. But if Lyon’s response is “There’s a confidentially agreement in place and I can’t comment”, then to my mind that’s the end of it and shouldn’t preclude him from the job.

If it was an inappropriate comment …. if ….. and he settled to the satisfaction of both parties, then as it occurred 5-6 years ago and there’s no indication at all from anyone that it’s a pattern of behaviour, I’d be willing to forgive someone for an isolated mistake in their life.

If Carlton did not consider him because he wasn’t willing to break his confidentiality agreement to
provide any detail, but they genuinely felt he was the best man for the job, then I’d say they’ve made an error in judgement.

It’s all speculation of course …. but let’s also not pretend financial settlements aren’t sometimes arrived at for reasons other than guilt, like saving hundreds of thousands on legal bills, protecting your reputation as ‘mud sticks’ even if not true and so on …..



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

I agree, Carlton should ask the question. But if Lyon’s response is “There’s a confidentially agreement in place and I can’t comment”, then to my mind that’s the end of it and shouldn’t preclude him from the job.

If it was an inappropriate comment …. if ….. and he settled to the satisfaction of both parties, then as it occurred 5-6 years ago and there’s no indication at all from anyone that it’s a pattern of behaviour, I’d be willing to forgive someone for an isolated mistake in their life.

If Carlton did not consider him because he wasn’t willing to break his confidentiality agreement to
provide any detail, but they genuinely felt he was the best man for the job, then I’d say they’ve made an error in judgement.

It’s all speculation of course …. but let’s also not pretend financial settlements aren’t sometimes arrived at for reasons other than guilt, like saving hundreds of thousands on legal bills, protecting your reputation as ‘mud sticks’ even if not true and so on …..



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

It's not about breaking an NDA or forgiveness.
It's about how the club would approach the appointment, given the allegations and the seeming conflict with the Carlton Respects program.
It could have just been a broader discussion about the issue in general and the optics for the club, as well as a potential way forward for all parties if he was to come on board.

That's speculation of course, but it shows how they could easily sit down to make sure everyone is on the same page, without going into specifics or breaking any confidentiality.
You can't just pass it off as 'he can't discuss it, he should be forgiven, and it shouldn't rule him out of the job'.
None of those statements are necessarily wrong, but he CAN discuss it (the issue in general, not the specifics of his accusations), it's NOT up to the club to forgive him, and it DIDN'T rule him out of the job. In fact, the club wanting to sit down with him, is probably an indication that it didn't rule him out. He baulked at that and ruled himself out.

 

[La Dispute]

I'm continually amazed the "ITK's" on the Carlton board were saying it was Clarkson, yet none of them mentioned anything about SPS wanting to leave. Total sh*t show!

A C-grader wanting to leave to head back to his home state is not interesting intel. Most presumed that was occurring anyway.

Pretty obvious why this was never mentioned, and I can’t recall a single poster asking about him either.

 

[La Dispute]

You are correct, they are not comparable at all. One man was found guilty, the other was found not guilty.

And you have chosen to presume a lot of things about Voss ….’unlawful assault can include threatening to punch, it was probably an open hand, they probably came to help, they were probably innocent bystanders, he doesn’t have a history of violence ’ etc…..

But you don’t afford Lyon any such concession despite having absolutely no idea what happened. You do know ‘sexual harassment’ can include commenting on someone’s clothing. Or someone over hearing a joke deemed inappropriate? Or saying someone has a nice figure? So how do you know what Lyon did or didn’t do?

All we know is he was found not guilty by the law, was found he didn’t have a case to answer by the AFL integrity department (who would have spoken to the female in question and loads of witnesses) and does not have a history of sexual harassment incidents.

Something is wrong with society today when someone who is found guilty is given more lenience than someone who is not found guilty of anything …. just because people don’t know what happened.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Maybe, but I don’t think it was just his off field indiscretion that was the issue.

He left two clubs in a state. One took a almost a decade to make finals, who knows when Freo will be back contending.

He has a reputation as a master coach yet he has never won a premiership after 13 seasons as a senior coach and his W-L is nothing to write home about.

Hiring him purely because he’s a better coach than Teague would be a dumb move. Most would put him to shame.

 

[Bulldog1954]

He has a reputation as a master coach yet he has never won a premiership after 13 seasons as a senior coach and his W-L is nothing to write home about.

I'm not saying Carlton should have got him, particularly with the off field stuff, but his win loss record is pretty bloody good. He averaged close to 13 wins a season, Voss averaged just over 8.

 

[LordLucifer]

He has a reputation as a master coach yet he has never won a premiership after 13 seasons as a senior coach and his W-L is nothing to write home about.

Ross Lyon :

Games Coached	Wins	Losses	Draws	Win %
305	172	128	5	56.4%

Alastair Clarkson :

​
	Games Coached Wins Losses Draws Win % 390 228 158 4 58.5%

Damien Hardwick :

​
	Games Coached Wins Losses Draws Win % 274 154 116 4 56.2%

 

[La Dispute]

Ross Lyon :

Games Coached	Wins	Losses	Draws	Win %
305	172	128	5	56.4%

Alastair Clarkson :

​
	Games Coached Wins Losses Draws Win % 390 228 158 4 58.5%

Damien Hardwick :

​
	Games Coached Wins Losses Draws Win % 274 154 116 4 56.2%

He inherited two finals calibre teams, Hardwick and Clarko took over rebuilding sides.

 

[La Dispute]

I'm not saying Carlton should have got him, particularly with the off field stuff, but his win loss record is pretty bloody good. He averaged close to 13 wins a season, Voss averaged just over 8.

As above, copped a couple of handy, mature sides when he took over. Really should have jagged a premiership with that St Kilda side.

I’m not overly keen to grab Voss, but he took over a side about to fall off a cliff and then had to rebuild. He was also 32 when he took over and had very little experience - his results were pretty much what you’d expect.

 

[zeggie]

I'm continually amazed the "ITK's" on the Carlton board were saying it was Clarkson, yet none of them mentioned anything about SPS wanting to leave. Total sh*t show!

Manager told the media right after they informed Carlton obviously.

Your obsession with shit shows over and over raises a few questions.

 

[zeggie]

There's speculation that a big reason Ross withdrew from our process was because members of the board were against his appointment due to the unproven allegations regarding a female staffer from his time at Fremantle and wanted him to openly discuss them, despite being bound by a NDA. Being cleared by the AFL integrity department, not having any police charges laid and a legal settlement between the parties being reached is not good enough for some.

Some of us are pretty annoyed that we might miss out on a coach who was very keen and seemed like a great fit because of this. Anyone with that opinion is usually lambasted.

Nope, far more likely Cook and his importance of Culture was a very important factor. How did Ross leave the Saints and Freo when exiting?

 

[nineteen eighty]

I respect Voss. He gave it a crack when he probably shouldn't have given his level of experience at the time. He could have easily have gone into the media when sacked but instead swallowed his pride and took an assistant coach role where he has had decent (but not ultimate) success.

Ego is usually the downfall of many and is also the quality that usually stops people from continuing to progress once they've had a major failure. He learnt from his experience. All the best to him if he's the chosen one.

As for Sayers, well he does have a healthy ego and I fully expect a grandiose tweet off the back of the coaching announcement.

 

[La Dispute]

I respect Voss. He gave it a crack when he probably shouldn't have given his level of experience at the time. He could have easily have gone into the media when sacked but instead swallowed his pride and took an assistant coach role where he has had decent (but not ultimate) success.

Ego is usually the downfall of many and is also the quality that usually stops people from continuing to progress once they've had a major failure. He learnt from his experience. All the best to him if he's the chosen one.

As for Sayers, well he does have a healthy ego and I fully expect a grandiose tweet off the back of the coaching announcement.

Agreed.

There’s a really well articulated post from a Brisbane supporter on our board giving a pretty comprehensive summation of why Voss actually wasn’t too bad as a senior coach and probably deserves another crack.

He did reasonably well to keep the Lions afloat for a couple of years with an ageing, mediocre list before they ultimately had to succumb to a rebuild.

Even Clarko couldn’t keep Hawthorn in the 8 forever, in hindsight kind of amazing an inexperienced coach was chastised on the same basis.

 

[La Dispute]

Hi all - hope you don't mind the visit. Just been reading a few Voss-related comments in one of your other threads and thought you may appreciate a little background from that time. Apologies for the length of this post in advance.

Voss is often blamed for three major problems - the Fev trade (and the general 2009 off-season of bringing in mature-aged players), the exodus of young players, and the state he left the club in. None of these are fair to pin on him.

1. A quick look at the Lions list from 2009 is pretty grim reading. It was an unusual mix of premiership players in their late 20s/early 30s, a few young guns from the previous two or three drafts, and then a bulk of average early/mid 20s players who we had recruited through the middle/latter stages of the draft around our successful years (Justin Sherman, Matt Austin, Jason Roe, Scott Harding, Sam Sheldon, James Hawksley, Rhan Hooper & Cheynee Stillerall played in our final against you that year, which says it all). In hindsight, there just wasn't a heap of talent on that list. To get us to the finals in 2009 was an extraordinary achievement, and quite clearly was the ceiling of what that group was capable of.

However, some at the club who had grown used to success drastically misread the situation and thought it was the heralding of another premiership run. There was also a sentiment that we should strike while the iron was hot with Brown, Black, and Power specifically still there (a bit similar to the rhetoric about Richmond having a proper crack while Dusty's still there before rebuilding).

It's hard to ascertain exactly what Voss believed concerning this approach, but what is clear is that he wasn't running the show. That was Gubby Allan, who as other posters have suggested has messed up more than one club. Allan had been at the Lions since the beginning with Leigh, so was a much more established & senior figure than Voss at that time. Gubby pulled the strings and made the moves. That's not to suggest Voss was entirely against it at all, but it is common knowledge up here that he was not the ringleader.

All of that aside, that trade period wasn't as bad as is often suggested. The Rischitelli/Bradshaw situation is often spoken about as a clear way that Voss damaged the list, but it was common knowledge that Rischa had planned to move to the Gold Coast the following year and that Bradshaw didn't have much left in him. So entertaining those moves made at least some degree of sense, and was hardly the devastating blow it is sometimes portrayed as. Bringing in Matt Maguire and Brent Staker proved good moves for what we paid - they both went on to play quite a bit of good footy for the club. Amon Buchanan & Xavier Clarke were clearly misfires. As for Fev, I think that was just the hope of trying to turn that list into a premiership team while those stars were still around. Everything fell apart, but this idea that it wasn't going to fall apart without that trade period is just a myth. The list was a mess. That trade period only exposed that as being the situation, rather than creating it.

2. As some others have mentioned, the go-home 5 had little to do with Voss - in fact, 4 of those 5 were quite close to him, and 2 have openly said they would likely have stayed at the club if Voss had been kept on. Their departure was entirely linked to how drastically we had fallen apart off-field, and how toxic our culture was. We had an inexperienced CEO & Chairman, essentially no player welfare department, and as brilliant a man as he is, Jonathan Brown as captain was still running an old macho-style form of leadership that wasn't resonating with many of the younger players at all.

Sure, Voss as the senior coach is ultimately responsible for the culture. But the lack of funding and focus the club had given to these areas was remarkable. Combined with the poor state the list was in, I don't think there is a coach out there who could've done much with where we were. Despite all of that, we did win 10 games in Voss's last two seasons (which, again, when you look at our list, was quite remarkable), and nearly snuck into the finals through the Essendon-assisted 9th spot your lot took in his last year in 2013 (albeit with him already sacked a month or so before that).

Hilariously, the reason the board ultimately sacked him was because our Chairman at the time (Angus Johnston) believed he could get Paul Roos to do a Fitzroy kind of homecoming, when Roos had already committed to Melbourne behind the scenes. There is a story to be written about how incompetently that was handled that many close to the situation know well, and it paints Voss in a much kinder light. Our leadership at the time was Johnston - a deeply unpopular and inexperienced businessman who overstepped his mark a number of times - and Malcolm Holmes as our CEO, who had come direct from rugby & racing in NZ and had no AFL background at all.

We essentially weren't a football club in those days.

The vast majority of players who played under Voss raved about him. He was young, inexperienced, and completely in over his head with no quality support anywhere in the club, but not incompetent in any way. This leads to my next point...

3. It has been a common myth that Voss left the Lions in a state of disaster. In reality, he was doing his best to patch up a sinking ship. The results under Leppitsch in the following seasons prove this. We dropped from 10 wins in 2012 & 2013 to 7 in 2014, 4 in 2015, and 3 in 2016.

Leppitsch is a coach I would not recommend to any club again. He was deeply flawed as a senior coach, and created some pretty enormous cultural problems that led to the horrifying season that was 2016. If there is anything good that Leppitsch did for us, it was that he made the club so bad that the AFL had to intervene and sent Noble & Fagan to us. We will always owe him that. But Leppa's time as senior coach - with more resources, much better leadership and support, and arguably a better list - shows just how good a job Voss actually did in hindsight to create a team as functional as he did.

All in all, Voss did plenty right in his time up here, but ultimately was hampered by his inexperience as well as a club that had grown arrogant & stale from its successes, and as a result, had let its list stagnate horribly and dropped the ball in a very big way in its leadership and culture.

I think you'll find plenty of Lions fans who would be very much open to the idea of Voss returning to coach us again one day, due to the common understanding that he didn't get a fair run at it the first time around. Naturally, I can't really see that happening - but it's a nice romantic idea. If you do get him though, I think plenty of you will be surprised at the quality of man & coach you'll be gaining. For all that he's achieved and all that he is capable, it's remarkable how poorly rated he has become. I hope he gets the chance with Carlton to right that wrong.

Hope you don’t mind me sharing PattyKwasagun.

 

[Kings of Lygon]

He inherited two finals calibre teams, Hardwick and Clarko took over rebuilding sides.

Weird view of things.

Before he took over Freo, they had finished 11th, 6th, 14th and 14th in that order (pre GWS and GC btw).

Nope, far more likely Cook and his importance of Culture was a very important factor. How did Ross leave the Saints and Freo when exiting?

That likelihood is 0%. Ross said he wasn't interested before Cook was the CEO.

I'm not sure how well him leaving his teams matters at all. If you want to just make finals and do nothing for years but not bottom out as the competition is structured to be, sure he's not going to be your man. At least Ross took teams to the pinnacle and had a chance at the big prize. He's a butterfly flapping its wings away from being talked about as a premiership coach, got no issue with pushing all the chips in to have a crack.

 

[La Dispute]

Weird view of things.

Before he took over Freo, they had finished 11th, 6th, 14th and 14th in that order (pre GWS and GC btw).

Hardly relevant where they’d finished up in 2008.

A couple of years before he took over Fremantle played in a home final, the next year they missed out by a couple of games after a spate of injuries in the second half of the year.

The Dockers were clearly capable when he was appointed head coach.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Is Clarko still coming or are the ITK's resigned to Crazy Vossy taking over?

 

[Metalcrusher]

Is Clarko still coming or are the ITK's resigned to Crazy Vossy taking over?

 

[Kings of Lygon]

Hardly relevant where they’d finished up in 2008.

A couple of years before he took over Fremantle played in a home final, the next year they missed out by a couple of games after a spate of injuries in the second half of the year.

The Dockers were clearly capable when he was appointed head coach.

Collingwood finished 4th and 8th before this season. Is McRae taking over a finals caliber team?

It's a revisionist history call on your behalf, Fremantle had made finals once in god knows how long and you're pretending like Ross was gifted a finals hardened side. It's just not true.