List Mgmt. National & Rookie Draft 2021

[Lore]

Hey guys, thought you might like to have this resource on your board (scuse the intrusion!) – mods might like to sticky it so it's visible at the top of the thread

 

[bird_man]

Think its been overstated, Dogs and Dees notoriously didn't shift from the main 4-5 midfielders at CBAs for the entire year. Back in Steele, Crouch, Jones, Gresham (who was actually tracking better than anyone in his two games) and sprinkle it with others. I also place a huge value on intercept and rebound off half back, noting that its where the majority of scores start from. Sinn, Chesser, Windhager all provide a great mix of speed and endurance but also footskills to complement our ball movement outside of the clearance game.

Drafting an out and out midfielder now isn't going to mix with our current Best 22 (they need to be versatile for a draftee) and we are too far back to get anyone of major star quality that you could potentially plug and play midfield from Round 1 (JHF, Callaghan, Hobbs, Ward are the Top 4). I would be holding out for Erasmus, but even I don't think he will make it to us.

EDIT: everyone banging on about getting a star midfielder either doesnt understand the current crop of draftees or the "grouping" Gags spoke about in his interview. We aren't near the top end, and I know from the exercise before that you can draft stars outside the Top 10, but people need to understand that it is very very difficult. The mids that go Top 5-10 are star quality, starting midfield rotation for their teams in future, anything outside of this is a bit of a lucky dip. There is a skill involved, but no matter how hard you rub a turd or even a diamond, its never going to turn into gold.

They didn't shift away from 4-5 mids all year because they have a quality midfield.

Completely different to our 4-5 mids.

What you suggest in your edit is very different to what many draft experts are suggesting.

Most are saying it is a very even draft after pick 4, all the way to 15-20.

If there was ever going to be a quality mid taken outside the top 10 it's this year.

Going for two back flankers with 2 top picks would be criminal.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

OK pick 24 has just been called out.
Explain to me why another club will want to trade their 25 for a pick which may be up near 30 next year.

Because we've thrown F4 in too.

 

[Significant]

They didn't shift away from 4-5 mids all year because they have a quality midfield.

Completely different to our 4-5 mids.

What you suggest in your edit is very different to what many draft experts are suggesting.

Most are saying it is a very even draft after pick 4, all the way to 15-20.

If there was ever going to be a quality mid taken outside the top 10 it's this year.

Going for two back flankers with 2 top picks would be criminal.

And where did they get their quality midfields from? Either Top 10 picks or F/S selections, which is not what we have.

Is run and carry not a key criteria for our list? Is running capacity not the key element Gags mentioned we would be focused on?

Realistically we had Sinclair and Hill (not his preferred position) who were able to control our ball movement and launch scores from turnover in our D50 this year. One of them shouldn't be there (Hill) and the other did an incredible job this year, but we need more depth there. The rest are medium intercept defenders, not blokes with running capacity and pace to launch scoring chains.

Like I said, I place a lot of value on these types of players because its where the game is headed - your defenders attack, your forwards defend, and your midfields win contest - as soon as you lose or halve that contest, the ball is in motion, and thats where your run and carry comes into it, something that has been completely lacking from our generally kick-mark side.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Think its been overstated, Dogs and Dees notoriously didn't shift from the main 4-5 midfielders at CBAs for the entire year. Back in Steele, Crouch, Jones, Gresham (who was actually tracking better than anyone in his two games) and sprinkle it with others. I also place a huge value on intercept and rebound off half back, noting that its where the majority of scores start from. Sinn, Chesser, Windhager all provide a great mix of speed and endurance but also footskills to complement our ball movement outside of the clearance game.

Drafting an out and out midfielder now isn't going to mix with our current Best 22 (they need to be versatile for a draftee) and we are too far back to get anyone of major star quality that you could potentially plug and play midfield from Round 1 (JHF, Callaghan, Hobbs, Ward are the Top 4). I would be holding out for Erasmus, but even I don't think he will make it to us.

EDIT: everyone banging on about getting a star midfielder either doesnt understand the current crop of draftees or the "grouping" Gags spoke about in his interview. We aren't near the top end, and I know from the exercise before that you can draft stars outside the Top 10, but people need to understand that it is very very difficult. The mids that go Top 5-10 are star quality, starting midfield rotation for their teams in future, anything outside of this is a bit of a lucky dip. There is a skill involved, but no matter how hard you rub a turd or even a diamond, its never going to turn into gold.

You're bang on.

All 4 of the players you've mentioned are mids. I think to some people, if a player doesn't line up at a centre bounce then they're not a midfielder.

Funny thing is that once the ball is bounced, the 'midfield' goes from 3 player & a ruckman to 10 players & a ruckman chasing the pill around.

As I posted previously, if a pure, balanced mid like a Hobbs or Ward don't sneak through then we've got a heap of super talented kids that will compliment what we already have. And most of them are midfielders of all types, sizes and skill sets.

 

[Significant]

You're bang on.

All 4 of the players you've mentioned are mids. I think to some people, if a player doesn't line up at a centre bounce then they're not a midfielder.

Funny thing is that once the ball is bounced, the 'midfield' goes from 3 player & a ruckman to 10 players & a ruckman chasing the pill around.

As I posted previously, if a pure, balanced mid like a Hobbs or Ward don't sneak through then we've got a heap of super talented kids that will compliment what we already have. And most of them are midfielders of all types, sizes and skill sets.

It's not really the point I was making, but it complements it. Everyone is fixated on this next big contested beast in our midfield, but history has shown it is difficult to draft these players outside of the Top 5-10. If people expecting this type of pick on draft night, they will be disappointed AFAIC.

 

[bird_man]

And where did they get their quality midfields from? Either Top 10 picks or F/S selections, which is not what we have.

Is run and carry not a key criteria for our list? Is running capacity not the key element Gags mentioned we would be focused on?

Realistically we had Sinclair and Hill (not his preferred position) who were able to control our ball movement and launch scores from turnover in our D50 this year. One of them shouldn't be there (Hill) and the other did an incredible job this year, but we need more depth there. The rest are medium intercept defenders, not blokes with running capacity and pace to launch scoring chains.

Like I said, I place a lot of value on these types of players because its where the game is headed - your defenders attack, your forwards defend, and your midfields win contest - as soon as you lose or halve that contest, the ball is in motion, and thats where your run and carry comes into it, something that has been completely lacking from our generally kick-mark side.

Josh Dunkley is AA that was taken at pick 25

As I said, this is a very different draft than most. You are getting too caught up with numbers.

There will be quality mids taken outside the top 10 this year. And we have pick 11.

You can put as many fast or classy flankers as you want in that side, but if we continue with an average midfield we won't get far.

There aren't too many premierships sides with a midfield as average as ours unfortunately.

Luckily most of the mids projected to go top 20 are also versatile and can play other roles. Even Owens and Windy have played mostly across the flanks this.

 

[Ailurus]

Realistically we had Sinclair and Hill (not his preferred position) who were able to control our ball movement and launch scores from turnover in our D50 this year. One of them shouldn't be there (Hill) and the other did an incredible job this year, but we need more depth there. The rest are medium intercept defenders, not blokes with running capacity and pace to launch scoring chains.

I agree with this, we don't really have that running half back player aside from Sincs if Hill goes back onto a wing. Someone like Sinn (or Chesser if we get a later pick) would complement this, but I still think we need someone with skill in our midfield, as while our midfield is alright, it isn't skillfull. Maybe we could back in Sinn to one day push up, but I'd still rather get someone we know can, though it might not be possible

 

[bird_man]

You're bang on.

All 4 of the players you've mentioned are mids. I think to some people, if a player doesn't line up at a centre bounce then they're not a midfielder.

Funny thing is that once the ball is bounced, the 'midfield' goes from 3 player & a ruckman to 10 players & a ruckman chasing the pill around.

As I posted previously, if a pure, balanced mid like a Hobbs or Ward don't sneak through then we've got a heap of super talented kids that will compliment what we already have. And most of them are midfielders of all types, sizes and skill sets.

So how many of these so called mids that are mids but don't start in the centre square genuinely elite?

The best mids play in the centre.

 

[Significant]

So how many of these so called mids that are mids but don't start in the centre square genuinely elite?

The best mids play in the centre.

Dunkley

 

[hangdog]

We can take two NGA's ( such as Peris ) as Cat B rookies even if any other rookie or main list spots are full.
I wouldn't mind Cripps as a Rookie.

Yeah I'm hoping McLennan, Beilby, Peris and/or Kyle get picked up as Cat B's

Here's all of our NGA's currently.

ST KILDA
Alecsander McComb
Declan McComb
Jack Peris
Mitchito Owens
Leon Alao
Scott Beilby
David Lega Frost
Angus McLennan
Rhys Gillard
Josiah Kyle
Marcus Windhager

Source: https://www.afl.com.au/news/561218/2021-nga-list

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Because we've thrown F4 in too.

How would you feel if our club was the one trading out our second?
We traded out our first in 2016 and got back the future first, an early 2nd and a late second. Some here still didn't like the deal.

 

[hangdog]

OK pick 24 has just been called out.
Explain to me why another club will want to trade their 25 for a pick which may be up near 30 next year.

Need to trade with teams that need picks for next year. Brisbane. Go for pick 20.

 

[hangdog]

Think its been overstated, Dogs and Dees notoriously didn't shift from the main 4-5 midfielders at CBAs for the entire year. Back in Steele, Crouch, Jones, Gresham (who was actually tracking better than anyone in his two games) and sprinkle it with others. I also place a huge value on intercept and rebound off half back, noting that its where the majority of scores start from. Sinn, Chesser, Windhager all provide a great mix of speed and endurance but also footskills to complement our ball movement outside of the clearance game.

Drafting an out and out midfielder now isn't going to mix with our current Best 22 (they need to be versatile for a draftee) and we are too far back to get anyone of major star quality that you could potentially plug and play midfield from Round 1 (JHF, Callaghan, Hobbs, Ward are the Top 4). I would be holding out for Erasmus, but even I don't think he will make it to us.

EDIT: everyone banging on about getting a star midfielder either doesnt understand the current crop of draftees or the "grouping" Gags spoke about in his interview. We aren't near the top end, and I know from the exercise before that you can draft stars outside the Top 10, but people need to understand that it is very very difficult. The mids that go Top 5-10 are star quality, starting midfield rotation for their teams in future, anything outside of this is a bit of a lucky dip. There is a skill involved, but no matter how hard you rub a turd or even a diamond, its never going to turn into gold.

Tend to agree but if we got Hobbs or Ward (by some miracle) I'd want them lining up on the ball round 1 in Gresham's place. Gresh coming back from injury and equally as important in the F50. I'd like us for once to draft a mid and play them as a damn mid straight up.

Otherwise I'd like Clark starting on the ball this season.

 

[BrutThough]

Yeah I'm hoping McLennan, Beilby, Peris and/or Kyle get picked up as Cat B's

Here's all of our NGA's currently.

ST KILDA
Alecsander McComb
Declan McComb
Jack Peris
Mitchito Owens
Leon Alao
Scott Beilby
David Lega Frost
Angus McLennan
Rhys Gillard
Josiah Kyle
Marcus Windhager

Source: https://www.afl.com.au/news/561218/2021-nga-list

You can only have 2 Cat B rookies.

 

[hangdog]

You can only have 2 Cat B rookies.

Yeah I know. I said and/or meaning two of those four. It made sense in my mind!

 

[Ailurus]

Yeah I'm hoping McLennan, Beilby, Peris and/or Kyle get picked up as Cat B's

Here's all of our NGA's currently.

ST KILDA
Alecsander McComb
Declan McComb
Jack Peris
Mitchito Owens
Leon Alao
Scott Beilby
David Lega Frost
Angus McLennan
Rhys Gillard
Josiah Kyle
Marcus Windhager

Source: https://www.afl.com.au/news/561218/2021-nga-list

Not that I'm opposed to doing that, but we shouldn't just automatically rookie them because they are NGAs. It's different to Owens and Windhager, I'd only be grabbing them if we think they actually could be something. Maybe they are, but it doesn't sound like there is much interest from other clubs in them even as rookies.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Dunkley

Dusty

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Not that I'm opposed to doing that, but we shouldn't just automatically rookie them because they are NGAs. It's different to Owens and Windhager, I'd only be grabbing them if we think they actually could be something. Maybe they are, but it doesn't sound like there is much interest from other clubs in them even as rookies.

Yep. We know Owens and Windhager can play along with having some favourable physical attributes. Players like Peris has a pretty average skill level and is more the can we develop an athlete into a footballer project. A bit like Alabakis if you traded height for speed

 

[DGontheQT]

Is anybody else worried that all Goater does in his highlights package , is butcher the ball by foot.

 

[Significant]

Is anybody else worried that all Goater does in his highlights package , is butcher the ball by foot.

My one issue with him, does have a great handball though! If you were playing him as a pure on-baller, then maybe he would be alright. There are a lot of elite midfielders who butcher the ball just from the pressure and contested nature of their role.

 

[gringo2011]

Is anybody else worried that all Goater does in his highlights package , is butcher the ball by foot.

I'm not a massive clean disposal advocate. Chaos footy has beaten control footy for years and I doubt it snaps back any time soon. Would you have Dangerfield or Jarrod Mc Veigh? Lots of guns are just adequate kicks. Petracca was in the worst disposal efficiency stats this year but I doubt anyone at Melbourne is complaining.

 

[Joffaboy]

Is anybody else worried that all Goater does in his highlights package , is butcher the ball by foot.

Only if we draft him.

 

[Ailurus]

My one issue with him, does have a great handball though! If you were playing him as a pure on-baller, then maybe he would be alright. There are a lot of elite midfielders who butcher the ball just from the pressure and contested nature of their role.

We already have a few of them. None of our on-ballers are good kicks, I'd like at least one.

 

[bird_man]

Is anybody else worried that all Goater does in his highlights package , is butcher the ball by foot.

Those highlights are from the Country v Metro game and his disposal was definitely poor that game.

Most draft watchers don't see his kicking as an issue though. In fact some suggest it's a strength of his.

 

[sammm]

Yeah I'm hoping McLennan, Beilby, Peris and/or Kyle get picked up as Cat B's

Here's all of our NGA's currently.

ST KILDA
Alecsander McComb
Declan McComb
Jack Peris
Mitchito Owens
Leon Alao
Scott Beilby
David Lega Frost
Angus McLennan
Rhys Gillard
Josiah Kyle
Marcus Windhager

Source: https://www.afl.com.au/news/561218/2021-nga-list

are they all of the age for this year or for future years as well?