The off topic thread 5.0

[Loonerty]

Also, it should be noted that there is a difference between a vaccine and an immunisation.

 

[SM]

I'm uneasy about vaccine mandates except in certain industries (health care etc).

Understand why people want it, but I think the negatives outweigh the positives.

And I do wonder about the effect on society the effective restriction on significant numbers of people from working will have.

I think there's also a lot we don't know about the vaccines such as how long are they effective for, and will they still be as effective as we see new strains. Proof of vaccination status might end up a bit meaningless.

Can I just double check - is that last paragraph basically saying vaccines in general are pretty meaningless because of new strains? I'm aware that you're literally talking about proof of vaccination, but the subtext seems to be that if proof of vaccine status is meaningless, then the vaccine itself is as well.

 

[moomba]

Can I just double check - is that last paragraph basically saying vaccines in general are pretty meaningless because of new strains? I'm aware that you're literally talking about proof of vaccination, but the subtext seems to be that if proof of vaccine status is meaningless, then the vaccine itself is as well.

You've answered your own question.

I'm aware that you're literally talking about proof of vaccination

 

[SM]

You've answered your own question.

There was a bit after that, actually.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Interesting discussion about the flu jab. Covid vaccines appear to be significantly more effective than the flu jab. There was one year (2014-15 I think) where the effectiveness of the flu jab in the UK was only 3%. There also appears to be significant differences in effectiveness of the flu jab for different age groups.
Some interesting data in the link below:

Flu vaccine

vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk

 

[moomba]

There was a bit after that, actually.

The subtext is in your head, not mine.

 

[SM]

The subtext is in your head, not mine.

Not quite sure that's true. Don't quite understand how you can suggest a passport evidencing a jab is meaningless without suggesting the jab itself is also meaningless. But all good.

 

[Loonerty]

The subtext is in your head, not mine.

It certainly seemed like you were suggesting that there was no point in the vaccines.

 

[99 Problems]

I’m fully vaccinated, will get any/as many booster shots as required because I’m not silly enough to think I know more than professionals in the field. I’m still a bit unsure about vaccine mandates though.

Easing the strain on the health system and workers are massive positives, and there are others shots in life that are essentially mandatory.

Where does liability lie if you are one of the very, very few who has an adverse reaction though? Your business or the government? Assuming the mandate is around long term and we finish up at around 90-95% vaccinated at most, what does our society look like with the 5-10% on the flip side essentially becoming permanently unemployed.

At the end of the day smarter people than me are making the decisions but I do think it’s a pretty complex issue.

 

[moomba]

Interesting discussion about the flu jab. Covid vaccines appear to be significantly more effective than the flu jab. There was one year (2014-15 I think) where the effectiveness of the flu jab in the UK was only 3%. There also appears to be significant differences in effectiveness of the flu jab for different age groups.
Some interesting data in the link below:

Flu vaccine

vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk

IIRC there's so many different flu strains they can't offer protection for all of them. So the pick the two or three most likely and that forms the basis of the jab each year.

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.

 

[Loonerty]

I’m fully vaccinated, will get any/as many booster shots as required because I’m not silly enough to think I know more than professionals in the field. I’m still a bit unsure about vaccine mandates though.

Easing the strain on the health system and workers are massive positives, and there are others shots in life that are essentially mandatory.

Where does liability lie if you are one of the very, very few who has an adverse reaction though? Your business or the government? Assuming the mandate is around long term and we finish up at around 90-95% vaccinated at most, what does our society look like with the 5-10% on the flip side essentially becoming permanently unemployed.

At the end of the day smarter people than me are making the decisions but I do think it’s a pretty complex issue.

That 5-10% will mostly bow eventually. NSW is at above 90 single and as people start to come more to terms with the consequences of it, they will just get it.

And I think with the adverse reaction, it's informed consent? You know the risks going in. I am not anywhere near a lawyer though so I'll defer that.

 

[moomba]

It certainly seemed like you were suggesting that there was no point in the vaccines.

As SM pointed out I was posting about proof of vaccination.

Any hidden meaning or subtext people want to find in a pretty clear statement is up to them.

 

[bok_party]

An excuse?

Plenty of people spouting what’s the point in getting a vaccine if it doesn’t basically last forever hence an excuse as to not go and get the jab.

 

[99 Problems]

That 5-10% will mostly bow eventually. NSW is at above 90 single and as people start to come more to terms with the consequences of it, they will just get it.

And I think with the adverse reaction, it's informed consent? You know the risks going in. I am not anywhere near a lawyer though so I'll defer that.

That’s fair. I didn’t really want to bring the adverse reaction thing into it because I know it’s a go to for the anti-vax brigade but I don’t really know where it sits with mandates. If it essentially becomes a condition of employment in Australia does informed consent really cover it if you don’t realistically have a choice?

I guess part of my thinking is if we get 95% here vaxxed without mandates do the other 5% actually matter that much. Some will just never get it anyway.

 

[SM]

As SM pointed out I was posting about proof of vaccination.

Any hidden meaning or subtext people want to find in a pretty clear statement is up to them.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying then.

 

[Cruyff14]

Mandating is a very slippery slope and I get - to a very small extent - why people are a little annoyed (for lack fo a better word) about it.

But like others have said, there are much smarter people than us making these decisions and with good reason no doubt. I got the jab cos I wanted to protect myself and those around me, and live a normal life.

 

[moomba]

I think you missed the point of what I was saying then.

LOL, you didn't have a point. It was a figment of your imagination.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Mandating is a very slippery slope and I get - to a very small extent - why people are a little annoyed (for lack fo a better word) about it.

But like others have said, there are much smarter people than us making these decisions and with good reason no doubt. I got the jab cos I wanted to protect myself and those around me, and live a normal life.

I can't see why a mandate is an issue. Things like MMR, Tetnus, hep B etc are not mandatory but highly recommended and no one has an issue (basically schools organise it, you sign a waiver, done). Covid is at a similar level of danger, so why not put it in the almost mandated but not category. Right wing media has ****ed it all because they all thought it was a disease to have a go at trump with rather than just applying basic science.

 

[SM]

LOL, you didn't have a point. It was a figment of your imagination.

Weird. I've explained it a few times in good faith but you seem intent on turning it into something it's not. Time to move on.

 

[SM]

I can't see why a mandate is an issue. Things like MMR, Tetnus, hep B etc are not mandatory but highly recommended and no one has an issue (basically schools organise it, you sign a waiver, done). Covid is at a similar level of danger, so why not put it in the almost mandated but not category. Right wing media has f’ed it all because they all thought it was a disease to have a go at trump with rather than just applying basic science.

And because a portion of the population has issues with authority. It's rather childish.

 

[moomba]

Weird. I've explained it a few times in good faith but you seem intent on turning it into something it's not. Time to move on.

You explained that you read a post of mine referring to proof of vaccination, accept that I was referring to proof of vaccination and but still imagined a subtext that I was referring to the effectiveness of vaccines.

And then rather than just hold your hands up and say "I misread your post" you think that I've missed the point of yours.

OK, LOL.

 

[SM]

I see that "LOL" has replaced "PMSL" in the language of condescension. Bit sad that a conversation always has to get to that point with some.

 

[peternorth]

I can't see why a mandate is an issue. Things like MMR, Tetnus, hep B etc are not mandatory but highly recommended and no one has an issue (basically schools organise it, you sign a waiver, done). Covid is at a similar level of danger, so why not put it in the almost mandated but not category. Right wing media has f’ed it all because they all thought it was a disease to have a go at trump with rather than just applying basic science.

I maybe wrong but I recall people saying it’s just a bad flu, not a big deal last year. Was odd given same persons then said it was a big deal when people started dying and blamed Dan for it.

 

[ADL9798]

I'm uneasy about vaccine mandates except in certain industries (health care etc).

Understand why people want it, but I think the negatives outweigh the positives.

And I do wonder about the effect on society the effective restriction on significant numbers of people from working will have.

I think there's also a lot we don't know about the vaccines such as how long are they effective for, and will they still be as effective as we see new strains. Proof of vaccination status might end up a bit meaningless.

With the way vaccination records are set up here it won’t be difficult to update people’s status to reflect the need for boosters in time. I don't think the uncertainty you describe is a good reason in itself not to introduce things like vaccination passports, mandatory vaccination in certain settings, etc.

In terms of waning immunity, research looking at outcomes over a 6 month period post vaccination suggests that antibody responses typically drop, but your memory B cell responses show more durability. Without going into specifics basically this means that over time you will become progressively more likely to contract COVID (but still far less likely than an unvaccinated person). However, your memory B cell response means your ability to avoid becoming seriously unwell and ending up in hospital remains high.

Fortunately current vaccines are highly effective against all variants, but if we get a variant that mutates the specific part of the virus targeted by these vaccines then yes we’d probably need boosters for this too.

With these points^ in mind I think it’s reasonable to expect most of us will need a booster at some point.

 

[ADL9798]

In the same day.

Truly the worst political leadership this country has seen in living memory, from either end of the spectrum.