GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

[THE EQUALIZER]

Any idea what the Giants distribution from the AFL will be this year?

We know that Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond and West Coast's distribution has been slashed to $8.45m before prizemoney and special allowances.

 

[Gigantor]

Out of curiosity, are you based in Western Sydney?

I would have thought most Sydney-based GWS fans would want a greater presence in Sydney. You're the only (potentially) Sydney-based Giants fans I've interacted with that seems happy with the status quo.

Why are you so keen for the Canberra deal to continue to the detriment of a greater presence in Western Sydney?

I think it's possible for the Giants to walk and chew gum.
The money made from the ACT Government is pretty good, the ACT members contribute considerably to the overall Giants' membership number.
On top of that, the Giants have considerable support in Southern NSW, so the Canberra games service those members as well.
Lastly, I really don't believe that the Giants are getting 6,000 to the Showgrounds because they play a few games per year in Canberra. It's a nonsensical argument to be perfectly honest.

 

[madmug]

I think it's possible for the Giants to walk and chew gum.
The money made from the ACT Government is pretty good, the ACT members contribute considerably to the overall Giants' membership number.
On top of that, the Giants have considerable support in Southern NSW, so the Canberra games service those members as well.
Lastly, I really don't believe that the Giants are getting 6,000 to the Showgrounds because they play a few games per year in Canberra. It's a nonsensical argument to be perfectly honest.

I think the argument is that they put GWS into the Western Sydney region to promote & grow the code there. It seems pointless to not prioritise that, given the massive investment they've made for it.

 

[RedV3x]

I think the argument is that they put GWS into the Western Sydney region to promote & grow the code there.

Because it was impractical to extend the Swans appeal to that region.
The Swans started at the SCG and drew from surrounding areas. They are effectively Sydney City.
To appeal to the GWS, the Swans would have had to move to Homebush to increase their appeal there
but reducing their original appeal.

It seems pointless to not prioritise that, given the massive investment they've made for it.

yes.

 

[Gigantor]

I think the argument is that they put GWS into the Western Sydney region to promote & grow the code there. It seems pointless to not prioritise that, given the massive investment they've made for it.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the Showgrounds are not available during the Easter Show, This generally means two home games are played at Manuka, which suits everyone, especially the Canberra members who can get out to the footy before the zero temperatures set in (and even then, that's no guarantee).

Depending on the timing of the Easter Show, it can mean some seasons the Giants don't get an early season home game at the Showgrounds.

In such seasons, the obvious solution would be to open the AFL season with a Giants home game. Perhaps Giants v Bulldogs at the Showgrounds can become the new traditional season opener.

 

[Bjo187]

I posted this a few weeks back on ideas of how to improve gws and their penetration into the Sydney market. Something that I'll add, is they need to get the Sydney media on side. Organise a few nights, get the booze flowing and invite all the media big wigs, smooze them and bring them into the tent to make them feel like writing a negative article about the club would be in poor form as we like the people that run the club. Heck even pay some of these radio personalities, editor in chiefs or whatever off the books. Get them to put more positive articles in local papers, especially national ones like news.com.au. Or even pay them to mention they are a supporter of the club on radio or tv or whatever. But have a few of them, don't leave one personality out in the cold as a standalone supporter of the club, they'll get eaten alive by the rest of the media and the leaguies.

Anyway here are the other things I posted previously, I even sent some of these ideas to individuals in the gws marketing team, they didn't even open it, other clubs I have engaged with in the past have been receptive to my suggestions, these clowns, nothing.. you really need to be inventive in a tough market and not play conservative and by the rules to get some traction and a recognisable brand.

Ideas posted a free weeks back:

• You need a marquee player in Sydney. I'd be trying to get Dustin Martin. Get the AFL to throw in a marquee player allowance or something to make it happen. Other than winning, it's the most important thing in the Sydney market, plus he lived in the area and the tatts etc make him stand out and appeal to the local market where being and looking tough is cool.
• Get Alistair Clarkson, he at least would be known in Sydney.
• Change from the ridiculous GWS name. Nobody in Sydney even knows what it means and that there is a team representing their area that they could get attached to. It's like starting an NRL team in the south eastern suburbs of Melbourne and calling them the SEM Bulls or something. Either Western Sydney or even G. Western Sydney Giants, but the word Sydney has to appear as often as possible.
• Get at least a percentage of their games on the main channel of 7, not on mate and not in the guide just listed as AFL, it needs to be listed in the guide on your tv as AFL: Western Sydney v Essendon for example, do people actually know they are on.
• Stop playing games in Canberra. Yes it's a good market and adds supporters, but mostly fans that aren't fully engaged as it's a part time club and canberran's like the idea of their own club.
• Match game times up at showgrounds to piggy back off big NRL games at the Olympic stadium. Like storm do with Anzac day, when I came out to my car in the mcg carpark and had a flyer on it offering me half price entry if I walk over to aami park a few hundred metres away.
• I liked Canberra pears previous idea of playing a game at the Olympic stadium when the show is on and offer kids to get in free or something. Show people in the area there is a team that represents you in the biggest sport in the country, right here if you wanna check it out, whilst you are close by.
• Play those Canberra games in other parts of Sydney or nsw. When the show is on, even play a game or two at the scg or even at Henson park in inner west sydney.
• Draft or trade in some players of more ethnically diverse backgrounds to represent the demographics of the area better. They should have been offering a houli or Saad big money to play for the club in years gone by. They might finally be onto this with bringing in Aleer last year, but Blacktown as an example has the highest indigenous population around. How have they not gotten anybody through their academy of indigenous background from the area?
• For home games face the camera to the side of the ground where more people are seated, sell more seats on that side of the ground, optics are everything these days, it's why Instagram and photo shopping are an industry in itself, what looks good sells.
• The atmosphere when I attended was non existent and it was one of their biggest non derby crowds ever, for tv maybe add some fake crowd noise, maybe you could do this at the stadium too if people couldn't tell, put some speakers in the light towers or something.
• Get one of the employees to start an active supporter group for the club. Go around to all local AFL clubs and ask a bunch of boys say 14 to 20 yrs old if they want to join a group that chants and cheers throughout games. Give them free entry, but monitor behaviour and make it cool to be a giants fan. More people will join once you get that initial squad together.
• Puma have done a much better job with their jumpers, consider using the never surrender jumper as permanent home though, this makes them differentiate from the swans a lot more than the mostly orange jumper, which could be used as an away jumper instead.

So overall better media presence, better game day experience with atmosphere and more recognisable players and staff to the Sydney public should be of primary importance. What they have been doing hasn't been working, it's way too safe and boring.

 

[RedV3x]

• You need a marquee player in Sydney. I'd be trying to get Dustin Martin.
• Get Alistair Clarkson, he at least would be known in Sydney.

Good if you could.

• Change from the ridiculous GWS name.
• consider using the never surrender jumper as permanent home jumper
• For home games face the camera to the side of the ground where more people are seated,

Window dressing

• Get at least a percentage of their games on the main channel of 7,

A small help

• Stop playing games in Canberra.

No. Play away games at Canberra.

Match game times up at showgrounds to piggy back off big NRL games at the Olympic stadium. Like storm do with Anzac day, when I came out to my car in the mcg carpark and had a flyer on it offering me half price entry if I walk over to aami park a few hundred metres away.

No way. It might work in Melbourne but NOT Sydney.
It causes congestion and congestion causes anger. There was huge anger when the SFS was scheduled against Swans games.

I liked Canberra pears previous idea of playing a game at the Olympic stadium when the show is on and offer kids to get in free or something.

Yes.

Play those Canberra games in other parts of Sydney or NSW.

But where ?

play a game or two at the scg or even at Henson park in inner west sydney.

SCG is not going to win you more GWS fans. Hensen park is a joke(even for AFLW).
Nice idea, but where ?

Draft or trade in some players of more ethnically diverse backgrounds to represent the demographics of the area better.

If they can win a premiership and have a future in Sydney.

Get one of the employees to start an active supporter group for the club.

I would have thought that already existed.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I think it's possible for the Giants to walk and chew gum.
The money made from the ACT Government is pretty good, the ACT members contribute considerably to the overall Giants' membership number.
On top of that, the Giants have considerable support in Southern NSW, so the Canberra games service those members as well.
Lastly, I really don't believe that the Giants are getting 6,000 to the Showgrounds because they play a few games per year in Canberra. It's a nonsensical argument to be perfectly honest.

Thanks for the response. And sorry for the long reply. Some of it also doubles up on Bjo87's because it took me so long to write it.

I've mentioned this before, the money from the ACT is alright, but I don't think the Giants are doing that well from it.

The deal is $2.3m a year. Of that, $1.15m goes to the ACT academy, so only $1.15m actually goes to GWS. I think the deal, broken down to it's parts, is worth at least $2.35m

• Cairns pays "$650,000-plus" for a single match.
• Wagga paid $100k for a preseason match ($300k over three years). That was a decade ago.
• Mackay pays for annual AFLW matches. I can't find a figure, but I would say it would be more valuable than a preseason game (so at least $100-150k)
• The sponsorship spot on the guernsey could be worth $500k per year (by my calculations). Sponsorships are tricky to find dollar values for, so I've done my best here to work it out. According to Sponsorship News, a top of the back sponsorship is worth 1/6 of a front sponsorship. In 2013, as a primarily front sponsor, the Virgin Australia deal with the Giants was reportedly $4m over 5 years ($800k per year), so at 1/6 of that, a sponsorship replacing the "Canberra" logo could conservatively be worth $150k per year.

So broken down to the sum of its parts, what the Giants are getting $1.15m for what could actually be worth more than $2.35m per year.

The ACT members contribute considerably to the overall Giants' membership number.
On top of that, the Giants have considerable support in Southern NSW, so the Canberra games service those members as well.

The most recent number I can find for Canberra members is 5800, which seems to be near the roof of Canberra members. That's 18.8% of your members.

70% of members are based in NSW, so conservatively, 60% would be based in Sydney, which means the Giants have about 19k Sydney-based members. If the Giants played all their games in Western Sydney, their membership tally might be initially lower, but they'd be able to sell 11-game members at a greater cost and to a larger base, which would cover the cost of membership revenue.

There's also only 256 GWS members based in the Riverina (by 2017 numbers). And Canberra's still a three-hour drive away, so I wouldn't say Canberra is too relevant to supporting that base.

I really don't believe that the Giants are getting 6,000 to the Showgrounds because they play a few games per year in Canberra. It's a nonsensical argument to be perfectly honest.

This year, I would attribute the low crowds to terrible weather, pandemic hesitance and disruption, and poor performance.

But generally, I think the Giants' Sydney crowds would be higher if you'd committed more fully to Western Sydney. As I mentioned, you're the only Sydney-based Giants fan I've interacted with that seems okay with the status quo. So much of what I read online aligns with the sentiment that fans don't like sharing a team, or fear Canberra being treated as a lifeboat. It may not affect your attendance and allegiance to the club, but I think it would, and has, others.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the Showgrounds are not available during the Easter Show, This generally means two home games are played at Manuka, which suits everyone, especially the Canberra members who can get out to the footy before the zero temperatures set in (and even then, that's no guarantee).

Depending on the timing of the Easter Show, it can mean some seasons the Giants don't get an early season home game at the Showgrounds.

In such seasons, the obvious solution would be to open the AFL season with a Giants home game. Perhaps Giants v Bulldogs at the Showgrounds can become the new traditional season opener.

I think the Easter Show dilemma is easily remedied. Going 5 or 6 rounds without a home game is a real momentum killer for attendance.

But I do like the idea of the Giants v Bulldogs as a season opener!

A bit of scheduling and you could still easily fit 10 games at Giants Stadium, but there are a few options for the other game in Sydney.

• ANZ Stadium - I know it's not popular, but as I've previously raised, playing a game during the Sydney Show (and having a deal with the Show) could capitalise on the 75k daily show-goers right next door. Make it an annual Easter Game against Essendon or Richmond, 4pm to funnel in people at the end of the Show, 10k Toby Greene bobble heads.
• Blacktown - Once again, I know it's not popular, but could make (with probably slight renovations) a good option against lower-pulling teams (Gold Coast, Freo, Port). Blacktown had the second biggest GWS membership base in Sydney, and Penrith had the fourth highest.
• Henson Park - Already has GWS' third highest AFLW Sydney crowd (and highest in the pandemic era). Would be a chance to blur the line with Swans territory and claim more of the inner west.

So I'm not saying GWS can't chew gum and walk at the same time, but I think you'd be able to blow bigger bubbles if you didn't have to concentrate on walking at the same time.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I posted this a few weeks back on ideas of how to improve gws and their penetration into the Sydney market. Something that I'll add, is they need to get the Sydney media on side. Organise a few nights, get the booze flowing and invite all the media big wigs, smooze them and bring them into the tent to make them feel like writing a negative article about the club would be in poor form as we like the people that run the club. Heck even pay some of these radio personalities, editor in chiefs or whatever off the books. Get them to put more positive articles in local papers, especially national ones like news.com.au. Or even pay them to mention they are a supporter of the club on radio or tv or whatever. But have a few of them, don't leave one personality out in the cold as a standalone supporter of the club, they'll get eaten alive by the rest of the media and the leaguies.

Anyway here are the other things I posted previously, I even sent some of these ideas to individuals in the gws marketing team, they didn't even open it, other clubs I have engaged with in the past have been receptive to my suggestions, these clowns, nothing.. you really need to be inventive in a tough market and not play conservative and by the rules to get some traction and a recognisable brand.

Ideas posted a free weeks back:

• You need a marquee player in Sydney. I'd be trying to get Dustin Martin. Get the AFL to throw in a marquee player allowance or something to make it happen. Other than winning, it's the most important thing in the Sydney market, plus he lived in the area and the tatts etc make him stand out and appeal to the local market where being and looking tough is cool.
• Get Alistair Clarkson, he at least would be known in Sydney.
• Change from the ridiculous GWS name. Nobody in Sydney even knows what it means and that there is a team representing their area that they could get attached to. It's like starting an NRL team in the south eastern suburbs of Melbourne and calling them the SEM Bulls or something. Either Western Sydney or even G. Western Sydney Giants, but the word Sydney has to appear as often as possible.
• Get at least a percentage of their games on the main channel of 7, not on mate and not in the guide just listed as AFL, it needs to be listed in the guide on your tv as AFL: Western Sydney v Essendon for example, do people actually know they are on.
• Stop playing games in Canberra. Yes it's a good market and adds supporters, but mostly fans that aren't fully engaged as it's a part time club and canberran's like the idea of their own club.
• Match game times up at showgrounds to piggy back off big NRL games at the Olympic stadium. Like storm do with Anzac day, when I came out to my car in the mcg carpark and had a flyer on it offering me half price entry if I walk over to aami park a few hundred metres away.
• I liked Canberra pears previous idea of playing a game at the Olympic stadium when the show is on and offer kids to get in free or something. Show people in the area there is a team that represents you in the biggest sport in the country, right here if you wanna check it out, whilst you are close by.
• Play those Canberra games in other parts of Sydney or nsw. When the show is on, even play a game or two at the scg or even at Henson park in inner west sydney.
• Draft or trade in some players of more ethnically diverse backgrounds to represent the demographics of the area better. They should have been offering a houli or Saad big money to play for the club in years gone by. They might finally be onto this with bringing in Aleer last year, but Blacktown as an example has the highest indigenous population around. How have they not gotten anybody through their academy of indigenous background from the area?
• For home games face the camera to the side of the ground where more people are seated, sell more seats on that side of the ground, optics are everything these days, it's why Instagram and photo shopping are an industry in itself, what looks good sells.
• The atmosphere when I attended was non existent and it was one of their biggest non derby crowds ever, for tv maybe add some fake crowd noise, maybe you could do this at the stadium too if people couldn't tell, put some speakers in the light towers or something.
• Get one of the employees to start an active supporter group for the club. Go around to all local AFL clubs and ask a bunch of boys say 14 to 20 yrs old if they want to join a group that chants and cheers throughout games. Give them free entry, but monitor behaviour and make it cool to be a giants fan. More people will join once you get that initial squad together.
• Puma have done a much better job with their jumpers, consider using the never surrender jumper as permanent home though, this makes them differentiate from the swans a lot more than the mostly orange jumper, which could be used as an away jumper instead.

So overall better media presence, better game day experience with atmosphere and more recognisable players and staff to the Sydney public should be of primary importance. What they have been doing hasn't been working, it's way too safe and boring.

Good effort though!

Had you raised the idea of the Easter Game yet? I was thinking of submitting that idea myself if you hadn't yet.

 

[Bjo187]

Good effort though!

Had you raised the idea of the Easter Game yet? I was thinking of submitting that idea myself if you hadn't yet.

Nuh this was a couple of months prior to your suggestion. I used linkedin because I have a good profile on there, so it doesn't seem like just your average footy nuffie emailing ideas through (which i suppose i am too anyway ).

Not that it seemed to matter to these so called giants marketing bozos, but I have chatted to gc suns board members on there successfully before with ideas for their club.

Happy for you to borrow any of my ideas you like too if you can get in touch with anybody there .

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Gws had a crowd of 7.700 playing against one of the big Victorian clubs on the wknd an extremely concerning pattern with there support is unfolding. You would imagine the afl distribution will have to significantly increase over the coming seasons just to keep them going I hope they can turn around there on field results quickly

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Any idea what the Giants distribution from the AFL will be this year?

We know that Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond and West Coast's distribution has been slashed to $8.45m before prizemoney and special allowances.

Wouldn’t surprise me if it pushes towards 30 million

 

[Gigantor]

Gws had a crowd of 7.700 playing against one of the big Victorian clubs on the wknd an extremely concerning pattern with there support is unfolding. You would imagine the afl distribution will have to significantly increase over the coming seasons just to keep them going I hope they can turn around there on field results quickly

Looks like we're on an upward trajectory.

 

[madmug]

Looks like we're on an upward trajectory.

I think the fact is GWS should concentrate on their area. 11 Home games. Give it a chance.

Also, having lived in Sydney, much of my time on the edge of the GWS area (Auburn, Ashfield & others) you only have to look at the NRL attendances to see they'll never get big crowds, by AFL standards.

The Swans have been around for 30 years & soaked up all the expat southern AFL supporters in the city long ago.

Starting from scratch & hoping for generational change is just that, Hoping.

The plan for growth & development is just that, a plan.

We don't really know how much growth will occur. The established 100 year old NRL clubs show you that big crowds are rare. Often the clubs exist more by pokies & TV revenue than by members/attendances.

One would like for things to grow & change. Otherwise the GWS will be a forever financial Millstone. Thats not good for anyone.

 

[Walshawk]

I think the fact is GWS should concentrate on their area. 11 Home games. Give it a chance.

Also, having lived in Sydney, much of my time on the edge of the GWS area (Auburn, Ashfield & others) you only have to look at the NRL attendances to see they'll never get big crowds, by AFL standards.

The Swans have been around for 30 years & soaked up all the expat southern AFL supporters in the city long ago.

Starting from scratch & hoping for generational change is just that, Hoping.

The plan for growth & development is just that, a plan.

We don't really know how much growth will occur. The established 100 year old NRL clubs show you that big crowds are rare. Often the clubs exist more by pokies & TV revenue than by members/attendances.

One would like for things to grow & change. Otherwise the GWS will be a forever financial Millstone. Thats not good for anyone.

One of their problems is that people who relocate from Melbourne don’t usually move to Western Sydney. So the Swans will continue to soak up the southerners who usually have good jobs and live closer to the CBD. Although it is trendy to live inner west. West Sydney Giants has a nice ring to it.

 

[madmug]

One of their problems is that people who relocate from Melbourne don’t usually move to Western Sydney. So the Swans will continue to soak up the southerners who usually have good jobs and live closer to the CBD. Although it is trendy to live inner west. West Sydney Giants has a nice ring to it.

Yes.

The NRL example shows that 'football' is not a priority for many in the Sydney suburbs.

GC is similar. People have other priorities on the weekend. The powers look at the population statistics & think that all they need to know. At least it seems that way.

Then just add money.

Maybe they will grow to a sustainable size. Unfortunately Its just as likely they'll need huge grants to maintain themselves ongoing.

Remembering the RL, RU, Soccer won't just lie down.

 

[Bjo187]

Yes.

The NRL example shows that 'football' is not a priority for many in the Sydney suburbs.

GC is similar. People have other priorities on the weekend. The powers look at the population statistics & think that all they need to know. At least it seems that way.

Then just add money.

Maybe they will grow to a sustainable size. Unfortunately Its just as likely they'll need huge grants to maintain themselves ongoing.

Remembering the RL, RU, Soccer won't just lie down.

It's actually a good little stadium to watch football in if it were full and had a bit of atmosphere. I bet the AFL are regretting making both expansion stadiums 25k, 15k would have been a much better experience for attendees. It just shows though how they significantly over estimated the interest in the new clubs. At the time I bet they thought we'll start small with 25k then add more stands at the undeveloped end to bring it up to 35k in about 10 years or so.

I bet they'd like to knock down a few of those second tiers at giants stadium and just have the bottom level, it would look much better from an optics perspective, which is very important.

 

[Walshawk]

It's actually a good little stadium to watch football in if it were full and had a bit of atmosphere. I bet the AFL are regretting making both expansion stadiums 25k, 15k would have been a much better experience for attendees. It just shows though how they significantly over estimated the interest in the new clubs. At the time I bet they thought we'll start small with 25k then add more stands at the undeveloped end to bring it up to 35k in about 10 years or so.

I bet they'd like to knock down a few of those second tiers at giants stadium and just have the bottom level, it would look much better from an optics perspective, which is very important.

Yes, a 15k Showgrounds with Swans games and finals at ACCOR might have been a better model for GWS. Canberra has drawn overall higher average crowds than Showgrounds (once you take out Swans games) despite the big clubs and big games being played in Sydney.

GC has more potential for the occasional big crowd, especially during school holidays as we saw with Pies and Tigers recently.

 

[Billy ray]

unless the AFL is going to schedule us on the friday night big stage - which they may next year - give us all home games in the sat twilight or afternoon slot.
away games can be whenever. oh but the gabba qclash should again be twilight (same as metricon qclash) to encourage supporters in both cities to travel the 100km and get home well before midnight

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Looks like we're on an upward trajectory.

How so ? A crowd of that size that you have been getting regularly would struggle to even pay the operating costs of the stadium let alone make a profit . Its going to be very interesting what the afl distribution is for gws this season will definitely break records

 

[RedV3x]

One of their problems is that people who relocate from Melbourne don’t usually move to Western Sydney.

Not a problem at all.

West Sydney Giants has a nice ring to it.

Sydney Giants.

 

[Walshawk]

Not a problem at all.



Sydney Giants.

Few expats is actually a big problem. Just like Melbourne Storm, and Swans/Lions/Suns, a large % (majority) of fans (at least initially) have an interstate background. GWS missing this group makes it hard to get going - as we have seen. During the Capper years, the SCG was full of Vic club fans, and this was their core group during the dark days in the early 1990s.

And the AFL has an agreement with the Swans that the Giants cannot call themselves Sydney.

 

[Gigantor]

Few expats is actually a big problem. Just like Melbourne Storm, and Swans/Lions/Suns, a large % (majority) of fans (at least initially) have an interstate background. GWS missing this group makes it hard to get going - as we have seen. During the Capper years, the SCG was full of Vic club fans, and this was their core group during the dark days in the early 1990s.

And the AFL has an agreement with the Swans that the Giants cannot call themselves Sydney.

The Giants not having the low-hanging fruit of ex-pats might make things difficult initially, but they are actually there precisely because there was no low-hanging fruit. That's the point. Already known by the AFL from the start. The Giants are there because there is no low-hanging fruit.
If you wanted an easy harvest, you'd simply put a 3rd team in Perth.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The Giants not having the low-hanging fruit of ex-pats might make things difficult initially, but they are actually there precisely because there was no low-hanging fruit. That's the point. Already known by the AFL from the start. The Giants are there because there is no low-hanging fruit.
If you wanted an easy harvest, you'd simply put a 3rd team in Perth.

That's what people don't seem to get.

Comparing crowds to other AFL areas, and citing crowds as a percentage of the region's population, is entirely useless.

Obviously, it would be great if GWS could average 20k already, but GWS is all about 20-30 years from now.

GWS will be a big club.

 

[RedV3x]

GWS missing this group makes it hard to get going

Past history that is now irrelevant.

And the AFL has an agreement with the Swans that the Giants cannot call themselves Sydney.

Agreements can be changed.