GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

[Bjo187]

That's what people don't seem to get.

Comparing crowds to other AFL areas, and citing crowds as a percentage of the region's population, is entirely useless.

Obviously, it would be great if GWS could average 20k already, but GWS is all about 20-30 years from now.

GWS will be a big club.

I do think you need that expat core initially, it creates interest and talk around the club where new fans can engage online and there is some vocal support in the stands to start with.

On the 'Sydney' name it's interesting in the bbl there are two Sydney's and two Melbourne's. I do know of the agreement too though which I think is a mistake, the AFL should have told the swans to shove it. The swans have actually stunted the growth of the giants imo, which is actually too their own detriment if anything. The crows are stronger with a decent port and eagles with a decent dockers.

 

[Canberra Pear]

It's actually a good little stadium to watch football in if it were full and had a bit of atmosphere. I bet the AFL are regretting making both expansion stadiums 25k, 15k would have been a much better experience for attendees. It just shows though how they significantly over estimated the interest in the new clubs. At the time I bet they thought we'll start small with 25k then add more stands at the undeveloped end to bring it up to 35k in about 10 years or so.

I bet they'd like to knock down a few of those second tiers at giants stadium and just have the bottom level, it would look much better from an optics perspective, which is very important.

It's ebbed and flowed a bit.

You're definitely right about the plan to increase capacity. I think they were both kept in that horseshoe design for that very reason.

But I think the crowds have justified the capacity. In 2016, when the Giants were selling out finals matches, there were plans to increase the stadium to 30k-35k. I think the Thunder were doing well too at the time. GWS have had 12 15k+ crowds at Giants Stadium.

There just needs to be something done about making it more intimate for the lower crowds.

I know tarps are a bit taboo (thanks Port), but Giants Stadium could be made to look more intimate if they know they aren't going to get enough of a crowd to bother opening the top tier. When Port used tarps, they had a lot of sponsors on them, so it could be another revenue stream. Otherwise, I like what they do in Vancouver to soccer games. They use white sails (see pic below) to bring capacity from 54k to 22k and make it much more intimate. Could work with orange, white and charcoal sails.



Otherwise, I think Blacktown represents an opportunity for the low-drawing games. A crowd of 8k against the Suns still looks good there, and it gives another option during the Easter Show.

Capacity definitely hasn't been too low for the Suns. I can't be bothered counting all 15k+ crowds, but they've have 17 crowds at 16,727 or higher.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Another 20 years at least gives them one generation to stamp their mark. If they’re still a very small club, I’d move them to Canberra, unless the ACT makes a serious push/demand to be team 20 between now and then. I wouldn’t be surprised if Tasmania gets up as team 19 that the competition stays on 19 teams for a long time.

Tassie doesn't make financial sense without an extra game a round. WA3 or Canberra will not be far behind if Tassie gets in (and I still reckon there won't be a Tassie team).

 

[Canberra Pear]

I do think you need that expat core initially, it creates interest and talk around the club where new fans can engage online and there is some vocal support in the stands to start with.

On the 'Sydney' name it's interesting in the bbl there are two Sydney's and two Melbourne's. I do know of the agreement too though which I think is a mistake, the AFL should have told the swans to shove it. The swans have actually stunted the growth of the giants imo, which is actually too their own detriment if anything. The crows are stronger with a decent port and eagles with a decent dockers.

Ex-pats are definitely handy to start with. That's where Gold Coast had an edge. I guess that the up side is almost every AFL fan in Western Sydney will be a Giants fan, rather than most Gold Coast AFL fans having them as a second team.

Just confirming, the agreement just means they can't be the "Sydney Giants" right? They're still allowed to be the "Western Sydney Giants" if they wanted?

Edit: I actually really dislike that there's two Melbournes and two Sydneys in the BBL. It makes it seem a bit plastic.

 

[BigPond101]

11 games in Western Sydney is a no brainer if they want any chance of suceeding. Splitting so many games with Canberra is like trying to be half pregnant. Either accept its going to take decades and go all in or shut them down now

 

[Bjo187]

It's ebbed and flowed a bit.

You're definitely right about the plan to increase capacity. I think they were both kept in that horseshoe design for that very reason.

But I think the crowds have justified the capacity. In 2016, when the Giants were selling out finals matches, there were plans to increase the stadium to 30k-35k. I think the Thunder were doing well too at the time. GWS have had 12 15k+ crowds at Giants Stadium.

There just needs to be something done about making it more intimate for the lower crowds.

I know tarps are a bit taboo (thanks Port), but Giants Stadium could be made to look more intimate if they know they aren't going to get enough of a crowd to bother opening the top tier. When Port used tarps, they had a lot of sponsors on them, so it could be another revenue stream. Otherwise, I like what they do in Vancouver to soccer games. They use white sails (see pic below) to bring capacity from 54k to 22k and make it much more intimate. Could work with orange, white and charcoal sails.

View attachment 1470585

Otherwise, I think Blacktown represents an opportunity for the low-drawing games. A crowd of 8k against the Suns still looks good there, and it gives another option during the Easter Show.

Capacity definitely hasn't been too low for the Suns. I can't be bothered counting all 15k+ crowds, but they've have 17 crowds at 16,727 or higher.

Yeah I'm happy for the tarps or sails. I wouldn't play in Blacktown though I've been to that ground, it's like a ghost town.

Also yes they can be called western sydney which is common sense to everybody but the AFL and some council members from the greater west that probably don't even watch the sport anyway.

 

[madmug]

That's what people don't seem to get.

Comparing crowds to other AFL areas, and citing crowds as a percentage of the region's population, is entirely useless.

Obviously, it would be great if GWS could average 20k already, but GWS is all about 20-30 years from now.

GWS will be a big club.

NRL clubs in the area have been playing for a century or more. They are not 'big clubs' by AFL standards.

Pre Covid 2019 showed the Eels average 18k Tigers 15k Panthers & Bulldogs about 12k each

Why will GWS be a big club at any time in the next 100 years?

I hope they are a success, but how will we rate that success. How will we measure it? When?

 

[Tasmanian saint]

I do think you need that expat core initially, it creates interest and talk around the club where new fans can engage online and there is some vocal support in the stands to start with.

On the 'Sydney' name it's interesting in the bbl there are two Sydney's and two Melbourne's. I do know of the agreement too though which I think is a mistake, the AFL should have told the swans to shove it. The swans have actually stunted the growth of the giants imo, which is actually too their own detriment if anything. The crows are stronger with a decent port and eagles with a decent dockers.

Disagree the afl is a cut throat competition the swans have no obligation whatsoever to help or make life easy for the giants. The afl were the ones that decided to put a club there

 

[Walshawk]

Tassie doesn't make financial sense without an extra game a round. WA3 or Canberra will not be far behind if Tassie gets in (and I still reckon there won't be a Tassie team).

Each new team adds 11 games. So the 20th team does not add any more to the pie that he 19th team

 

[Walshawk]

Ex-pats are definitely handy to start with. That's where Gold Coast had an edge. I guess that the up side is almost every AFL fan in Western Sydney will be a Giants fan, rather than most Gold Coast AFL fans having them as a second team.

Just confirming, the agreement just means they can't be the "Sydney Giants" right? They're still allowed to be the "Western Sydney Giants" if they wanted?

Edit: I actually really dislike that there's two Melbournes and two Sydneys in the BBL. It makes it seem a bit plastic.

Correct. The club is actually officially called Western Sydney Football Club anyway.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Homebush = Waverley.
They need to pay more games at the SCG, Swans rivalry be damned

I partly agree and partly disagree. Homebush is pretty isolated and not well served by public transport, just like Waverley. But there are important differences.

Firstly, Sydney is not Melbourne, the pattern of settlement is different and unlike Melbourne it has a genuine second CBD.

Secondly, it's culturally at least two different cities that have sprawled into each other, and you're unlikely to be able to appeal to all of them at once, so geographic differentiation is important.

Thirdly, transport to Homebush is going to get much easier in the next decade with both a metro line and a light rail line providing direct access, unlike the inconvenient train shuttle serving it at present. We should see whether the crowds improve from that.

I could see the Homebush problem coming a mile off when they decided to stick the team there instead of near Parramatta CBD where there's an actual culture to the surrounding area and it's better connected to the rest of the west than anywhere else. A stadium next to where Western Sydney stadium currently is would have been a bigger success.

There will still be challenges though. You can't get away from the underlying problem that western Sydney is incredibly poorly planned out and not designed to facilitate trips by any medium other than private motor vehicles. This will always be a handbrake on attracting crowds.

 

[Gigantor]

NRL clubs in the area have been playing for a century or more. They are not 'big clubs' by AFL standards.

Pre Covid 2019 showed the Eels average 18k Tigers 15k Panthers & Bulldogs about 12k each

Why will GWS be a big club at any time in the next 100 years?

I hope they are a success, but how will we rate that success. How will we measure it? When?

The answer to your question is in those numbers.
Regularly reaching 12k is a marker of success.
It was there pre-COVID, and it will get there again.
13k at the Showgrounds is actually a decent atmosphere, on a sunny Winter day, there's no better place.
Also, if sponsorship recenue continues to out-pace half the competition, then that is another marker of success.

 

[madmug]

The answer to your question is in those numbers.
Regularly reaching 12k is a marker of success.
It was there pre-COVID, and it will get there again.
13k at the Showgrounds is actually a decent atmosphere, on a sunny Winter day, there's no better place.
Also, if sponsorship recenue continues to out-pace half the competition, then that is another marker of success.

12k a marker of success that costs $25mil a year? Thats success?

So what is the sponsorship level at? Do you include selling games to Canberra in that?

Clearly its not enough yet if crowds of 12k become the norm.

You see Its not only getting people to support GWS, its a whole cultural change of getting the West Sydney folk to attend ANY sports event.!!

 

[Rob]

It's ebbed and flowed a bit.

You're definitely right about the plan to increase capacity. I think they were both kept in that horseshoe design for that very reason.

But I think the crowds have justified the capacity. In 2016, when the Giants were selling out finals matches, there were plans to increase the stadium to 30k-35k. I think the Thunder were doing well too at the time. GWS have had 12 15k+ crowds at Giants Stadium.

There just needs to be something done about making it more intimate for the lower crowds.

I know tarps are a bit taboo (thanks Port), but Giants Stadium could be made to look more intimate if they know they aren't going to get enough of a crowd to bother opening the top tier. When Port used tarps, they had a lot of sponsors on them, so it could be another revenue stream. Otherwise, I like what they do in Vancouver to soccer games. They use white sails (see pic below) to bring capacity from 54k to 22k and make it much more intimate. Could work with orange, white and charcoal sails.

View attachment 1470585

Otherwise, I think Blacktown represents an opportunity for the low-drawing games. A crowd of 8k against the Suns still looks good there, and it gives another option during the Easter Show.

Capacity definitely hasn't been too low for the Suns. I can't be bothered counting all 15k+ crowds, but they've have 17 crowds at 16,727 or higher.

The problem at Blacktown will be a lack of premium seats. Corporate boxes and the like. I know they have some area called the deck or something like that as well where there isn't likely to be an equivalent at Blacktown.

It's not necessarily as easy as saying they'll only get 6k to this game so move it to Blacktown.

 

[RedV3x]

The problem at Blacktown will be a lack of premium seats. Corporate boxes and the like.

Put a low-drawing game at Blacktown and you'll get an even lower crowd.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

The answer to your question is in those numbers.
Regularly reaching 12k is a marker of success.
It was there pre-COVID, and it will get there again.
13k at the Showgrounds is actually a decent atmosphere, on a sunny Winter day, there's no better place.
Also, if sponsorship recenue continues to out-pace half the competition, then that is another marker of success.

The difference is the nrl clubs can get away with those type of crowds due to the large income they generate through there leagues clubs. GWS do not have that luxury hence why the afl has to make up the rest

 

[Prince Imperial]

Put a low-drawing game at Blacktown and you'll get an even lower crowd.

Unfortunately, this is true.

Other than the poor facilities compared to the Showgrounds it's also a decent hike from the nearest train stations (Doonside and Rooty Hill).

Yes, there's a train change needed but their current ground is very close to a train station.

Where we are

How to get to the Sportspark

www.blacktownsportspark.com.au

 

[RedV3x]

Unfortunately, this is true.

Other than the poor facilities compared to the Showgrounds it's also a decent hike from the nearest train stations (Doonside and Rooty Hill).

Yes, there's a train change needed but their current ground is very close to a train station.

Where we are

How to get to the Sportspark

www.blacktownsportspark.com.au

If they sere serious in the beginning they would have built an event platform at the ground.

 

[RedV3x]

The difference is the nrl clubs can get away with those type of crowds due to the large income they generate through there leagues clubs.

Well things have changed and that "large income" is has now become problematical.
That is why some AFL clubs are divesting themselves of gambling revenue.

GWS do not have that luxury hence why the afl has to make up the rest

GWS generates new market incomes. Tasmania does not.
That is why the AFL has been so slow in considering Tasmania (rightly or wrongly).

 

[Canberra Pear]

The difference is the nrl clubs can get away with those type of crowds due to the large income they generate through there leagues clubs. GWS do not have that luxury hence why the afl has to make up the rest

I think NRL clubs' reliance on pokies might become their downfall if they don't diversify.

First, it's not a good look. But more importantly, the pokies generation will die out as younger people continue to just gamble online. Who knows, the NSW govt might one day follow the WA govt's lead and ban them altogether.

 

[Bjo187]

Perronet should suggest that to get v'landy's off his case, half the Sydney teams would go under without their pokies.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The problem at Blacktown will be a lack of premium seats. Corporate boxes and the like. I know they have some area called the deck or something like that as well where there isn't likely to be an equivalent at Blacktown.

It's not necessarily as easy as saying they'll only get 6k to this game so move it to Blacktown.

My bad, I liked the idea of a presence further west, but it looks like it'd take quite an upgrade to be suitable.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Perronet should suggest that to get v'landy's off his case, half the Sydney teams would go under without their pokies.

Very true, that'd be a pretty funny shift in power!

 

[Tasmanian saint]

I think NRL clubs' reliance on pokies might become their downfall if they don't diversify.

First, it's not a good look. But more importantly, the pokies generation will die out as younger people continue to just gamble online. Who knows, the NSW govt might one day follow the WA govt's lead and ban them altogether.

Love it or hate pokie machines are not going anywhere anytime soon there’s far too much money involved. The Tasmanian labor party tried a couple of elections ago with a pledge to get rid of all machines except casinos they got absolutely destroyed come voting time .

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Well things have changed and that "large income" is has now become problematical.
That is why some AFL clubs are divesting themselves of gambling revenue.



GWS generates new market incomes. Tasmania does not.
That is why the AFL has been so slow in considering Tasmania (rightly or wrongly).

Gws has the potential to generate once again the word potential absolutely no guarantees . We could be sitting here in 30 years and they could be no better off . Doesn’t matter how anti Tasmania you might be you have to admit there no were near the risk involved for a tas team opposed to gws