Win Prizes Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

[Gethelred]

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack.

As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them.

If you've still got a live question posted to a christian, feel free to continue conversing for the time being.

Standard board rules apply.

 

[evolved2]

How do you think healing occurs anyway?
Surgeons operate, medications are given , but they are reliant on time and God's mercy, whether they like it or not.

Science/medicine, not magic.

I understand you want to believe what you're saying is true, but do you have any evidence that god can dictate health outcomes?

 

[evolved2]

no worries, Thomas
Even he doubted, despite the evidence!!~

Thomas was allegedly given the evidence he asked for. Show me the evidence and I'll believe. That's how any reasonable person responds to dubious and extraordinary claims, in the process protecting themselves from scammers.

Do you have a problem with that approach?

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

Terrible just terrible analogy. This would work if the Bible didn’t say that he regretted making humans. But it specifically states that He did regret creating us, because of our actions. So this analogy doesn’t really work.

So the analogy does work when you understand the meaning of regret in the verse. Again I will tell you.

Regret has many meanings, and the meaning in context of Genesis chapter 6 is that:
the sin of man sorrowed God, who is holy and without blemish.

And because God is holy and without blemish, the unrighteous were made outcasts, seperated from God. This is why we need Jesus.

 

[Roylion]

This is why we need Jesus.

I don’t need Jesus.

 

[Vdubs]

Thomas was allegedly given the evidence he asked for. Show me the evidence and I'll believe. That's how any reasonable person responds to dubious and extraordinary claims, in the process protecting themselves from scammers.

Do you have a problem with that approach?

Do you believe that many people have undergone "miraculous" life-changing conversions after committing their lives to Jesus Christ, and are free to leave at any point with impunity?
If you see this with your own eyes at services, you still may not believe it.
If it happens to yurself, pretty hard to walk away from that.
I was never once pressured into making a commitment, paying $ to a church, or to become a member.
I come from a cynical, pragmatic, skeptical family- my father once referred to pastors as "they're usually ex used car salesmen, say no more"....but I can honestly say that getting to know a pastor, fellow marathon man, he exuded character traits that made me think that some people are great representatives of Christ, and 39 years later, we are still great mates, and he is still a pastor. He taught me how to read the bible, how to pray, and how to be faithful and persevere. He was not a Bible-basher, but knows the Bible inside out, and has studied Hebrew and Greek.
People who knew the old me could not believe I had gone down this pathway, but the interesting thing is, my mother , a Catholic lady, was not happy I had undergone this conversion, but admitted year after year, that I was a changed man for the better.
Most importantly, I know it to be real. NOTHING that my 12 years of Uni and Bioscience training could influence, and it has positively affected my career, and family life.
Was this always going to happen as part of maturity? I doubt that.
The events that have occurred since all of this are unbelievable, when all is said and done.
I know Jesus is real after having met many people who have been through similar experiences, and have not required other miracles to appease me.
Yet medical miracles do happen, and people do get answers to prayer.
I am not here, btw, to try and get you in, much as you think that is my aim. I need to know somebody in reality to share my story, and usually those people are interested, not like posters here. But these snippets are true.
As you have already read before.

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

I don’t need Jesus.

Unfortunately, there will come the day when you realise, you do.

Yes I know you’ll say again, you don’t. But the evidence of your life, will be testament to the fact you do. And you know it.

I believe the Bible to be true.

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

 

[evolved2]

Do you believe that many people have undergone "miraculous" life-changing conversions after committing their lives to Jesus Christ, and are free to leave at any point with impunity?

There's no evidence of miracles. Life-changing conversions happen everyday in all walks of life, and aren't miraculous. They're free to leave at any point if they want an eternity of pain and torture.

If you see this with your own eyes at services, you still may not believe it.

See what? Show me an amputee with a regrown limb and I'll believe it.

If it happens to yurself, pretty hard to walk away from that.

That depends on how much value you place on subjective experience in an environment that's crafted to invent 'spiritual' experience. I can easily walk away.

I was never once pressured into making a commitment, paying $ to a church, or to become a member.
I come from a cynical, pragmatic, skeptical family- my father once referred to pastors as "they're usually ex used car salesmen, say no more"....but I can honestly say that getting to know a pastor, fellow marathon man, he exuded character traits that made me think that some people are great representatives of Christ, and 39 years later, we are still great mates, and he is still a pastor. He taught me how to read the bible, how to pray, and how to be faithful and persevere. He was not a Bible-basher, but knows the Bible inside out, and has studied Hebrew and Greek.
People who knew the old me could not believe I had gone down this pathway, but the interesting thing is, my mother , a Catholic lady, was not happy I had undergone this conversion, but admitted year after year, that I was a changed man for the better.
Most importantly, I know it to be real. NOTHING that my 12 years of Uni and Bioscience training could influence, and it has positively affected my career, and family life.

You're not very skeptical now. I trust that you BELIEVE what you say, but I absolutely do not trust your judgement in respect to Christianity.

Was this always going to happen as part of maturity? I doubt that.
The events that have occurred since all of this are unbelievable, when all is said and done.
I know Jesus is real after having met many people who have been through similar experiences, and have not required other miracles to appease me.
Yet medical miracles do happen, and people do get answers to prayer.

No, they don't. You only think that because you accept testimony above scientific evidence. I don't.

I am not here, btw, to try and get you in, much as you think that is my aim. I need to know somebody in reality to share my story, and usually those people are interested, not like posters here. But these snippets are true.
As you have already read before.

You're a salesperson. It's ok, most of us don't mind.

 

[Vdubs]

There's no evidence of miracles. Life-changing conversions happen everyday in all walks of life, and aren't miraculous. They're free to leave at any point if they want an eternity of pain and torture.

See what? Show me an amputee with a regrown limb and I'll believe it.

That depends on how much value you place on subjective experience in an environment that's crafted to invent 'spiritual' experience. I can easily walk away.

You're not very skeptical now. I trust that you BELIEVE what you say, but I absolutely do not trust your judgement in respect to Christianity.

No, they don't. You only think that because you accept testimony above scientific evidence. I don't.

You're a salesperson. It's ok, most of us don't mind.

No worries, as long as I'm not responsible for your errant behaviour, I'm in the clear. I would hate to think that what we say here could actually prevent you from getting closer to God.

 

[evolved2]

No worries, as long as I'm not responsible for your errant behaviour, I'm in the clear.

I blame my Essendon supporting cousin for that! I was 5 or 6 when I was groomed into supporting this crappy team.

 

[Vdubs]

I blame my Essendon supporting cousin for that! I was 5 or 6 when I was groomed into supporting this crappy team.

Watch out for Lewis Hayes- will be a beauty.

 

[Total Power]

Yes that is correct

So Jesus who is actually a human form of God, existed before the universe was created. You look for non existing evidences, you will find what you are looking for (anything) if you play the verbal gymnastics well. Even Trinitarians admit there's no Trinity mentioned in OT. Care to read verse 27 of the same chapter why singular next?

LOL just LOL!

You respect him now? That makes you all over the shop. I am definitely not all over the shop and have made my positions consistently clear on a lot of topics. Btw the true Jesus of the Bible is the true Yahweh.

Of course, he admitted Yahweh is Jesus, which answers my question about Trinity. It's not about agreement (of course i disagree) but atleast he doesn't obfuscate like you do.

Somebody who worships the true God, would worship Jesus, because he is of the same nature of the true God. And if anyone rejects Jesus, they reject the one true God. They do not believe in the true Yahweh. And further, if anyone—including orthodox Jews—do not believe in Jesus, they worship an idol/false god and are more aligned with the enemy of God, Satan himself.

You don't get it, i am not here to show you are wrong. I am here to have a constructive debate/argument/discussion, with reason, with logic, with brains, none of them i can find in you.

 

[Total Power]

But evidence of the ‘magic’ probably won’t convince you either. It didn’t for people of those times, and it wouldn’t now.

Cause it's bullshit. Do you believe Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth that were created and death entered the world through their sin? Despite overwhelming evidence against this? Lets discuss why are you so convinced this is true (outside of you claiming Bible being true).

 

[Total Power]

All that changed when God needed to send Himself to us as Jesus. Jesus always was part of the Trinity.

So Jesus existed before the universe was created? so you are telling me, Jesus existed before humans were created as a human lookalike? or you telling me God exists in 3 fragments? this is not supported by Christian theologians btw.

That's because it doesn't make any sense. In several locations the Bible makes it clear that Christ is subordinate to the Father, which completely debunks the trinity because the trinity asserts that Christ is co-equal to the Father. Christ didn't wanna die, but father wanted him to. Then you have Jesus looking for his father in the cross saying that he abandoned him. Then you have Jesus telling his own people not to call him good cause only god his Good, then you have Jesus praying to his father.

All this before John was written. John was written with a specific purpose in mind. Not disagreeing that syoptics try to paint the picture that Jesus was a Messiah, but he is hardly the character painted in John.

John has been written 120 years after the death of Jesus by evanglicals. The purpose was obvious.

God is the First and the Last, nothing existed before God and nothing will exist after Him, He is it, the first and the last. In Revelation Jesus identifies himself as ” I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” (Revelation 22:13) The Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the greek alphabet, in English it would be the A and the Z. There are no letters before A, and none after Z. Jesus is the first and last, the beginning, and the end.

How is it that both God the Father and Jesus can be the first and the last? This is only possible because Jesus is God. Remember what John 1:1 said, “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Both are God, both are one being, one deity, even though they are individual.

I Am​

In the Old Testament God would refer to himself as simply “I Am” (Exodus 3:14).

Ironic, you quote the exoduis, what you make of this verse?

17 So the LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.” 18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.” 19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the LORD said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 “So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 “Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.” (Exodus 33:17-23)

Nek minit Jesus. It's absolutely clear, it violates with Jesus/YWH said about himself to Moses.

When God is creating man He says “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;” (Genesis 1:26). Who is God talking to here? Who is God referring to by saying “Us” and “Our”? God is not a single being but three, completely seperate beings, three deities that are the same. The Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1). This is an example of how Jesus did exist in the beginning.

Not only was Jesus with God in the beginning, before creation, but Jesus is the creator. John 1:3 says “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” Jesus did not come to die for his Father’s creation, but his own. Isn’t this amazing? Jesus knew what he would have to go through, he knew all of the suffering he would face before he created us, yet he still choose to do so!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.​

And who was the Word? Just a few verses later John clearly tells us.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’” (John 1:14-15)

Wrong, COMPLETELY WRONG. If the Trinity is 3 distinct persons in 1 God (whatever that means, we will put it aside for now) then you need 3 persons, multiple/plural persons creating. People think they have this in Genesis 1:26 because it uses plural personal pronouns, "us, our." Yet, if you bother to read verse 27, it uses singular personal pronouns. "He" made them in "his" image. Not multiple persons.
Verse 26 seems like a group of plural people is being addressed and yet verse 27 says that only one person is creating. If the Trinity is true or in view here, then we should see all 3 persons creating.

Problem 1. Verse 27 says only one person created, not a Trinity of multiple persons.

Problem 2. The verse never says the persons spoken of here are 2, 3, or 4. No number is given.

Problem 3. Jesus later in Matthew speaks of "the one who made them male and female." Speaking not of himself. Thus, he isn't the one who made man.

Most scholars and virtually all Jews read this verse as being directed to the divine council, but God proceeds to make man on his own. Nothing to do with the trinity here.

I have posted this before as a response to GOTHELIONS, all fallen in deaf ears and he continued to rant about how right he is.

 

[Total Power]

Unfortunately, there will come the day when you realise, you do.

Speak for yourself, people are leaving your religion in millions. You need a crutch, doesn't mean everyone else does.

 

[Roylion]

Unfortunately, there will come the day when you realise, you do.

Nope. It won't. I've never needed Jesus. I will never need Jesus.

Yes I know you’ll say again, you don’t.

Well of course I don't. Why would I?

But the evidence of your life, will be testament to the fact you do.

No it won't.

And you know it.

That is not correct.

I believe the Bible to be true.

The Bible is a human construct, written with an all too human agenda. Much of it is invented like much mythology. Yes, it has a bit of history (in the same way historical fiction mentions actual historical figures or events). it has bits of Hebrew law, it ha also borrowed from older literature from other cultures the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews came in contact with with some of the same literary motifs. Much of what is claimed as historical truth has not been proven as historical truth.

For example:

• the Garden of Eden
• the Global Flood
• the Exodus from Egypt
• the Israelite conquest of Canaan
• the Virgin Birth
• the Resurrection of Jesus

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

Quoting scripture in support of your beliefs has absolutely no impact on me at all.

 

[Vdubs]

So Jesus existed before the universe was created? so you are telling me, Jesus existed before humans were created as a human lookalike? or you telling me God exists in 3 fragments? this is not supported by Christian theologians btw.

That's because it doesn't make any sense. In several locations the Bible makes it clear that Christ is subordinate to the Father, which completely debunks the trinity because the trinity asserts that Christ is co-equal to the Father. Christ didn't wanna die, but father wanted him to. Then you have Jesus looking for his father in the cross saying that he abandoned him. Then you have Jesus telling his own people not to call him good cause only god his Good, then you have Jesus praying to his father.

All this before John was written. John was written with a specific purpose in mind. Not disagreeing that syoptics try to paint the picture that Jesus was a Messiah, but he is hardly the character painted in John.

John has been written 120 years after the death of Jesus by evanglicals. The purpose was obvious.




Ironic, you quote the exoduis, what you make of this verse?



Nek minit Jesus. It's absolutely clear, it violates with Jesus/YWH said about himself to Moses.


Wrong, COMPLETELY WRONG. If the Trinity is 3 distinct persons in 1 God (whatever that means, we will put it aside for now) then you need 3 persons, multiple/plural persons creating. People think they have this in Genesis 1:26 because it uses plural personal pronouns, "us, our." Yet, if you bother to read verse 27, it uses singular personal pronouns. "He" made them in "his" image. Not multiple persons.
Verse 26 seems like a group of plural people is being addressed and yet verse 27 says that only one person is creating. If the Trinity is true or in view here, then we should see all 3 persons creating.

Problem 1. Verse 27 says only one person created, not a Trinity of multiple persons.

Problem 2. The verse never says the persons spoken of here are 2, 3, or 4. No number is given.

Problem 3. Jesus later in Matthew speaks of "the one who made them male and female." Speaking not of himself. Thus, he isn't the one who made man.

Most scholars and virtually all Jews read this verse as being directed to the divine council, but God proceeds to make man on his own. Nothing to do with the trinity here.

I have posted this before as a response to GOTHELIONS, all fallen in deaf ears and he continued to rant about how right he is.

God always existed. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
God did not release Himself as Jesus to the OT people, but when He did, it was for the express purpose of starting Christianity, and liberating people from the power of sin. We have seen God face to face when Jesus was on earth, make no mistake, that is what we believe.

 

[Vdubs]

Nope. It won't I've never needed Jesus. I will never need Jesus.


Well done.


No it won't.


That is not correct.


The Bible is a human construct, written with an all too human agenda. Much of it is invented like much mythology. Yes, it has a bit of history (in the same way historical fiction mentions actual historical figures or events). it has bits of Hebrew law, it ha also borrowed from older literature from other cultures the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews came in contact with with some of the same literary motifs. Much of what is claimed as historical truth has not been proven as historical truth.

For example:

• the Garden of Eden
• the Global Flood
• the Exodus from Egypt
• the Israelite conquest of Canaan
• the Virgin Birth
• the Resurrection of Jesus

Quoting scripture in support of your beliefs has absolutely no impact on me at all.

So you keep telling us. Sadly. But where there is a heartbeat, there is hope.

 

[Total Power]

God always existed. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
God did not release Himself as Jesus to the OT people, but when He did, it was for the express purpose of starting Christianity, and liberating people from the power of sin. We have seen God face to face when Jesus was on earth, make no mistake, that is what we believe.

Please re-read my post again, we are talking about the Doctrine of Trinity, not about God. The fact that you quoted (just like your mate GTL) a tryhard website without reading the next verse, or OT in general shows blind copy pasting isn't in your best interests.

Whatever i have written, i have read and formed an opinion myself. You obviously didn't read the next passage and got caught out

Why you desperate trying to defend something which can't be defended. Trinity is not Biblical. It's Augustinian.

 

[Total Power]

So you keep telling us. Sadly. But where there is a heartbeat, there is hope.

exactly, hence i keep talking to you. There's hope, for you. I believe in you

 

[Roylion]

So you keep telling us. Sadly. But where there is a heartbeat, there is hope.

Your "hope" is misplaced. There is no hope. 'God' if it exists, is unknowable. By you. By your church. By any other church. By any religion. By mankind.

Any notion of god or any attempted description of 'god' is nothing more than the product of human imagination. Attempting to present 'Scripture' as the word of god or as evidence of the existence of god, or the nature of god is completely and utterly wasted.

Your arguments are poor, your evidence for 'god' or anything to do with the nature of god (for example 'the Trinity') are flimsy. Yes we know you believe. By faith and faith only. A poor and flimsy reason to believe.

 

[Total Power]

Your "hope" is misplaced. There is no hope. 'God' if it exists, is unknowable. By you. By your church. By any other church. By any religion. By mankind.

Any notion of god or any attempted description of 'god' is nothing more than the product of human imagination. Attempting to present 'Scripture' as the word of god or as evidence of the existence of god, or the nature of god is completely and utterly wasted.

Your arguments are poor, your evidence for 'god' or anything to do with the nature of god (for example 'the Trinity') are flimsy. Yes we know you believe. By faith and faith only. A poor and flimsy reason to believe.

I never ceases to amuse me about religion, how everyone else's faith is wrong but theirs. How everyone else's god is not the real god but theirs. Humans will always be humans, desperately looking for a crutch.

 

[Roylion]

I never ceases to amuse me about religion, how everyone else's faith is wrong but theirs.

A product of the human imagination is better than another product of the human imagination.

How everyone else's god is not the real god but theirs.

Everytime I read a claim that other versions of worship of a deity are false, it merely confirms for me that any notion of the nature of 'God' is conceived and shaped by various cultural mores. 'God' is indeed made and re-made in man's image.

 

[evolved2]

Cause it's bullshit. Do you believe Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth that were created and death entered the world through their sin? Despite overwhelming evidence against this? Lets discuss why are you so convinced this is true (outside of you claiming Bible being true).

Mate, there's no opposing evidence.

 

[Total Power]

Mate, there's no opposing evidence.

Since when they cared about evidence? not to mention Genesis was copied 100% from other sources but regardless trying to tell others that evolution is false cause the Bible said so it's utterly desperate stuff.

 

[Total Power]

Everytime I read a claim that other versions of worship of a deity are false, it merely confirms for me that any notion of the nature of 'God' is conceived and shaped by various cultural mores. 'God' is indeed made and re-made in man's image.

Yep, god gets angry, cries, laughs, talks, gets jealous, regrets, rests...yeah imagine the creator of the universe doing the same things we do. I wonder if they ever thought about it critically? These are emotions which we have due to a functioning brain, these emotions are absent from nature. Nature doesn't give 2 hoots about what religion or God you follow, it's brutal.