Win Prizes Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

[Gethelred]

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack.

As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them.

If you've still got a live question posted to a christian, feel free to continue conversing for the time being.

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Mr Sasquatch]

LOL says the bloke who believes in intelligent design cause of our bodies healing power. What 'part' of science is 'creation science'? name a credible scientist who believes in Adam and Eve being a real person, which NT family tree (and Jesus) affirms? Before you call me a literally, multiple verses in the OT (and NT) supports this.

Religions with specific claims that conflict with mountains of empirical evidence certainly fly in the face of science. I am particularly frustrated pages and pages worth pseudo scientific claims you have made and then when someone debunks it you come back with 'man made science'. Yep cause Bible was written by Jesus, wasn't it? Bible was written by MEN as well (all anonymous) decades and centuries after the death of this individual you call God.

You are not fooling anyone. Faith is irrational, Kant, Hume, Calvin say hello. You got lots to learn.

How many names do you want?

 

[Total Power]

How many names do you want?

Answers in Genesis You will find plenty. I am not talking about Ken Ham and his likes. The reason why his publications only feature in Christian magazines and never science. Look at who peer reviews Ken Ham. Unaccredited Christian institute of science (Discovery institute and AIG are just notorious for this). Yes, i am not talking about hobby scientists.

I am talking about 'CREDIBLE' scientists. Name them and state who peer reviewed the paper and a list of their previous publications (oh yes shock and horror, no one should peer review my paper so that i can claim whatever i want LOL). (Half of them are probably on answersingenesis and discovery institute).

You only have 3% of to choose from

Nearly all scientists (97%) say humans and other living things have evolved over time," while only 61% of the public agrees, according to a new report (PDF, p. 37) from the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press. Asked which comes closer to their view, "Humans and other living things have evolved over time" or "Humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time," 97% of scientists responding chose the former option, as opposed to only 2% choosing the latter option; 61% of the public responding chose the former option, as opposed to 31% choosing the latter option.

Views on evolution among the public and scientists | National Center for Science Education

ncse.ngo

I look forward to your names and their credentials (as not in degrees, but scientific credentials). This will be fun.

You can start with Ben Carson? LOL

 

[sataris]

You guys need to be more polite to each other. Try to buck the modern trend of rubbishing anyone's point of view that you dont agree with.

This is a classic tactic that basically boils down to 'don't question me'

There's actually nothing 'polite' about the bible.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

How do you propose we do that?

Unfortunately I see a looming war against emboldened far right cadres across many nations in the near future. There is a need to be proactive in shrinking the pool that these hate groups recruit from. Housing. Job security. Growing national infrastructure to meet population growth.

Stunting the growth of the far right should be bloodless, even though it may cost in treasure. For what's left in the bitter core of these groups I believe that those willing to take up arms in defence of ethno-nationalist or supremacist beliefs have themselves opted out of our collective humanity, willfully and by their own hand.

They should rightfully surrender (or be made surrender) their human rights and all the protections that being part of the club currently affords them. When the time comes, our collective humanity should take no prisoners among these oxygen thieves.

It's unfortunate, as I said. But it needs to happen.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I agree but I was just suggesting that Paul adjusted Jesus on the way through to the keeper....

I've always thought that some of the jesus thing was too hard for christians to implement like loving enemies....so they reverted to the old testament and just forgot what jesus said. In fact, if you dont implement the love enemies thing, then you are really not implementing christianity. Thats why I think most christians are fundamentally old testament practitioners... eye for eye etc...

Gnostic Christianity has an unusual take on this. As I understand it in the beginning there was an existing spiritual realm. The formation of a physical world was according to gnostics an act of evil and the old testament God is actually an evil deity known as Demiurge!

Jesus, according to them, was the goodness of the spiritual realm coming to assert itself against Demiurge and turn around its evil creations. Humans.

EDIT: humanity itself I don't think is seen as evil, but according to gnostics we still came with the physical world so we're part of Demiurge's creation scheme.

 

[Total Power]

Gnostic Christianity has an unusual take on this. As I understand it in the beginning there was an existing spiritual realm. The formation of a physical world was according to gnostics an act of evil and the old testament God is actually an evil deity known as Demiurge!

Jesus, according to them, was the goodness of the spiritual realm coming to assert itself against Demiurge and turn around its evil creations. Humans.

EDIT: humanity itself I don't think is seen as evil, but according to gnostics we still came with the physical world so we're part of Demiurge's creation scheme.

The Demiurge did not create the material universe - or indeed anything for that matter, hence the meaning of the term demiurge or 'half-maker'. Matter was essentially created unintentionally by his mother the Holy Sophia, he simply shaped it to his will in pale imitation of the Pleroma above. He has no motive other that the maintenance of the false order he has created in the material universe

search up gnotism Sophia and read the Wikipedia page for that, the dermiurge is still very much here and we’re still trapped in his realm, he isn’t angry just misguided because he thinks he’s alone here.

Can't you see the demiurge lives within you? To hate anything is the demiurge living through you. Take the log out of your eye before wanting to take a prick out of anyone else's. Love thy enemy. That's orthodox Gnosticism anyway.

But yeah, Saklas, Samael, Satan: to a gnostic they are names for the Evil One who made the material world. Interesting and different take though.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

How did I arrive at what conclusion?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Underneath every Christian is a sinful broken person! Are Christian’s hypocrites? Absolutely. In fact the bible predicts this!
However just because Christian’s perform poorly, it does not reflect on God!

You hear a bad rendition of moonlight sonata, who do you blame? Beethoven or the ham fisted piano player?

So, Christians aren’t better, they’re just Christians?

That’s not exactly a winning argument for your belief set.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

But the definition of sin can pertain to anything that offends religious or moral law

We live in a secular society.

I suppose any action that hurts other people or has significant negative outcomes is sin, anything reprehensible

And in that secular society we already have laws to deal with such matters.

If, as a society, we identify an injustice that is being overlooked, we evolve laws to address it, eg banning slavery.

We don’t need to create a special category of “sin” in order to sell our miracle cure.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Bit of a hard ask.

Define photosynthesis without referencing plant biology.

But plant biology is a field founded on established fact, not belief.

You’re not trying to “sell” plant biology to me as a belief system.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

A sinner is a lawbreaker, going against set rules.

No, someone who breaks laws is called an offender, or a criminal, and we have the legal and criminal justice system to deal with their transgressions.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

To blame the outsider when things get rough or resources get scarce - we have an intellect that should put us far above making such lowest-common-denominator conclusions. That some of us fail to use that intellect is an indictment.

We should be better as a species.

Tim Deans’ book “How we Became Human - And Why we Need to Change” is excellent on this. He shows how for most of human evolution, xenophobia was actually a survival advantage.

But now we’re not only mostly living in vast metropolises - bumping up cheek by jowl with hundreds of complete strangers every day - but also communicating with complete strangers from the other side of the world, that xenophobia is far more of a hindrance than a help and it’s getting scary.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

well i dont know why you and others are trying to tell the dubs that he is wrong.

Do you have long conversations telling pot smokers that they shouldnt smoke?

Telling someone you think they are wrong is a long way from telling them they are not allowed to practise their beliefs in private or in the company of like-minded souls.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You can't justify your point of view like that because you have literally ZERO understanding of what you quoted.

The floor is all yours…

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I am both, unashamedly.They are not mutually exclusive

“Science” unsupported by proof is not science, it is mere belief.

 

[Markfs]

Telling someone you think they are wrong is a long way from telling them they are not allowed to practise their beliefs in private or in the company of like-minded souls.

I realise that but how many times do you have to tell someone that they are wrong? I dont think jesus was a god but i understand that a lot of people believe he was. I dont feel the need to tell the dubs that he's wrong. I tend to tell him what I feel about my life and he can draw his own conclusions. As i said previously, I dont like what christianity does to people but it might help some individuals. It's like drugs. Some people can take them recreationally and they dont experience the negatives that drive the general debate. So christianity as a drug might be the right thing for dubs. So in his case, he's not wrong.

Whenever I see someone post a comment that pronounces "nonsense", the thing that I think about is arrogance.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I realise that but how many times do you have to tell someone that they are wrong? I dont think jesus was a god but i understand that a lot of people believe he was. I dont feel the need to tell the dubs that he's wrong. I tend to tell him what I feel about my life and he can draw his own conclusions. As i said previously, I dont like what christianity does to people but it might help some individuals. It's like drugs. Some people can take them recreationally and they dont experience the negatives that drive the general debate. So christianity as a drug might be the right thing for dubs. So in his case, he's not wrong.

Whenever I see someone post a comment that pronounces "nonsense", the thing that I think about is arrogance.

Let me be clear, I'm not telling Dubs he is wrong to choose to lead his life that he does. I have stated many times that I am genuinely happy that he or anyone else has found something that has broughts them peace and happiness.

I have always been really explicit about that and I can't make it any clearer.

But on a discussion thread about Christianity, I have no issue with telling people where I see that their beliefs do not pass logical scrutiny.

And secondly, while Dubs seems a pretty decent human being as far as I can tell, I have no problems with drawing attention to some of the egregious acts committed by the wider body of Christianity and religion in general.

Just to pick the most obvious and recent example, the Royal Commission into child abuse showed once and for all that the church as a moral body should shut the * up and do nothing else but listen until the world tells them they can talk again. The wider church has zero moral authority at this point in time.

 

[Vdubs]

“Science” unsupported by proof is not science, it is mere belief.

No, my claim is that I have a 7 year science based Uni education (and years of post grad training, and having to maintain accreditation annually) AND try to be a practicing Christian. That is not incompatible. Despite what we learn and get taught, faith in God as Creator is stronger for me. I still think it does not exclude evolution along that process either, as has been explained before.
I maintain that until God can be utterly disproved, I am a believer. There is way too much around to think a Creator is not involved.Imho.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The Demiurge did not create the material universe - or indeed anything for that matter, hence the meaning of the term demiurge or 'half-maker'. Matter was essentially created unintentionally by his mother the Holy Sophia, he simply shaped it to his will in pale imitation of the Pleroma above. He has no motive other that the maintenance of the false order he has created in the material universe

search up gnotism Sophia and read the Wikipedia page for that, the dermiurge is still very much here and we’re still trapped in his realm, he isn’t angry just misguided because he thinks he’s alone here.

Can't you see the demiurge lives within you? To hate anything is the demiurge living through you. Take the log out of your eye before wanting to take a prick out of anyone else's. Love thy enemy. That's orthodox Gnosticism anyway.

But yeah, Saklas, Samael, Satan: to a gnostic they are names for the Evil One who made the material world. Interesting and different take though.

Depending on the source the Demiurge was a Creator, maybe not of the material universe but the Earth and thus the life forms that came afterward;

The Gnostic Demiurge - Gnosticism Explained

The demiurge (Greek demiurgos,[1] “craftsman”[2]) is the being who created the world in Gnosticism. The Gnostics identified him with the god of the Old Testament. The Gnostic scriptures portray him as ignorant, malicious, and utterly inferior to the true God who sent Christ to earth to save...

gnosticismexplained.org

...In the Gnostic creation myth, Heaven – which the Gnostics called the “Pleroma,” “Fullness” – was all that existed until a divine entity named Sophia tried to conceive on her own, without the involvement of her heavenly partner or the consent of God. Sophia gave birth to a son that was the product of the rebellious and profane desire that had arisen within her.

This son of hers was the demiurge. The Gnostic text Reality of the Rulers describes “him” as an androgynous being, an “arrogant beast” that resembled an aborted fetus in both appearance and character. The Secret Book of John adds that he had the body of a snake and the head of a lion, with eyes like lightning bolts. (In ancient Greek philosophy, the lion was frequently a symbol of irrational passions. The Gnostics were steeped in the Greek philosophical tradition, so their description of the demiurge as having a lion’s head was probably intended to show that he was a being who couldn’t or wouldn’t control his base urges.That certainly fits the demiurge’s personality as described in their texts.)

When Sophia saw the horrifying, twisted being that had come from her, she was deeply ashamed and afraid. She disowned him and cast him out of Heaven.

From his lonely position where his madness and conceit could go unchecked, the demiurge gave birth to the archons (“rulers”), beings who were like him and could help him administer the material world. He then created the material world, which, like all creations, was a reflection of the personality of its creator.

The demiurge then created Adam and Eve and imprisoned divine sparks from Heaven within them. He told them that he was the only god and issued the Ten Commandments, even though he himself broke each and every one of those commandments...

I mean, as a non-believer my understanding is that all 'Creation myths' involving deities were just early human societies using fictions to fill in the gaps of what they could see of the world around them. Knowledge was lacking, but someone had to be behind things existing. The Demiurge creation myth is as good or as bad as any of the other creation stories floating around out there.

That these 'gods of the gaps' find themselves in an ever-shrinking pool due to the warming effect of scientific knowledge is no bad thing, in my opinion.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

No, someone who breaks laws is called an offender, or a criminal, and we have the legal and criminal justice system to deal with their transgressions.

Yeah, in every way that is non faith-based. A sinner is simply one who does the above but within the structure of faith. They are both transgressors. They both go against.

 

[Chief]

I maintain that until God can be utterly disproved, I am a believer.

Do you do your job that way?

 

[Markfs]

Let me be clear, I'm not telling Dubs he is wrong to choose to lead his life that he does. I have stated many times that I am genuinely happy that he or anyone else has found something that has broughts them peace and happiness.

I have always been really explicit about that and I can't make it any clearer.

But on a discussion thread about Christianity, I have no issue with telling people where I see that their beliefs do not pass logical scrutiny.

And secondly, while Dubs seems a pretty decent human being as far as I can tell, I have no problems with drawing attention to some of the egregious acts committed by the wider body of Christianity and religion in general.

Just to pick the most obvious and recent example, the Royal Commission into child abuse showed once and for all that the church as a moral body should shut the * up and do nothing else but listen until the world tells them they can talk again. The wider church has zero moral authority at this point in time.

Gonzo, it's not all about you. From what I've seen, you post politely and with some humour. I've said a number of times that I dont have much interest in forensic analysis of the bible and that's one of the reasons that I venture in from time to time. Most others here want the detailed analysis and i respect that. But I was making a comment about the use of "nonsense" and other similar responses - which I dont see you use.

I dont see any problem with talking about christian brothers and their gangrape mentality towards young boys....and the catholic church's response. I dont mind people theorising that it results in part because of this ridiculous requirement for clerics in that church to remain unmarried. And rope in all the historical stuff if you like. However, I have met a genuine priest or two before I flew the coup and I have to admit that the majority of them were probably that way. So not every opposing opinion is nonsense or rubbish and I just smile when I see an unsubstantiated comment like that, as if it means anything other than arrogance.

While I'm here. I recently found out that 20% of something close of fijians are mormons. This really gets me angry. Not only are they bringing tripe to that island but they are having a lasting impact on a culture. I just wish that christians would get it into their heads to keep to themselves. Now before the christians respond that this is the fijians choice....dont tell me that there isnt a power differential between unsophisticated islanders and guys in white shirts who have been skilled up in deception. Christianity continues to cut into africa and other low socio-economic areas to increase membership. There is no excuse for this behaviour.

 

[Markfs]

No, my claim is that I have a 7 year science based Uni education (and years of post grad training, and having to maintain accreditation annually) AND try to be a practicing Christian. That is not incompatible. Despite what we learn and get taught, faith in God as Creator is stronger for me. I still think it does not exclude evolution along that process either, as has been explained before.
I maintain that until God can be utterly disproved, I am a believer. There is way too much around to think a Creator is not involved.Imho.

dubs, i've always thought there is some reasonableness in saying there could be a god....but it's a big step to start defining that god as a trinity and that one of the trinity came to earth and died on a cross and all that other stuff...

personally, i'd love to see the arrival of a ship of aliens so we can ask them whether they had their own jesus story and we can start re-jigging the bible to include a clause that says that jesus is going to return somewhere in the universe based on a lucky lottery...

 

[Crankyhawk]

Ok this agnostic/ atheist is here to answer questions. Probably badly.