Banter Who will be Better in 2025, Collingwood or Carlton? Part 4

[Corn Cobbers]

So, have you "loaded up" on Carlton finishing bottom 4 ?

Between rounds 1 and 2 is the plan

Banking on Carlton giving Richmond a Biblical flogging, increasing the odds [emoji106]

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[JustaBattler]

Between rounds 1 and 2 is the plan

Banking on Carlton giving Richmond a Biblical flogging, increasing the odds [emoji106]

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As if you've got a bank account!!!

 

[JustaBattler]

we should all agree on the postng rules gong forward...

Just so everyone is clear..

RULE#1

INJURIES. dont Matter - unless it is Collingwood.

 

[Robroy22]

This "analysis" is truly hilarious

This aint analysis:

Games actually played by players deemed at the start of 2024 to be our best '23 versus the games played by players that are my approximations of Carlton's equivalents. It's rather stark and bares testament to what some claimants have been saying. Collingwood were hamstrung by key position injuries throughout the 2024 season. It's a difference of some 50+ games extra for one team from your key players, probably enough to influence the outcome of a season wouldn't you think?

Carlton people are all too aware of what a season looks like without a Curnow or a McKay so to have one where you had no Weitering, a quarter of a season from Cerra and McKay and half a season from Cripps (ALL at the same time)....well surely people understand the consequences. Once again I pay respect to Carlton and it's supporters and hope that all this BS can just dissipate, we're two proud clubs and hopefully we're about to both have exciting seasons. The need for oneupmanship is beyond me?

 

[carlton_99]

The need for oneupmanship is beyond me?

The need for one-upmanship is beyond you and yet you selectively choose data that attempts to show Collingwood one-upping Carlton at something?

Once again this is the AFL not the NBA. Looking at injuries to a select few players and ignoring others makes no sense. Including players that retired is also odd especially considering you have now had a trade period to replace them and have chosen not to. Clearly you don't think it's a pressing area of concern. Collingwood had significant injury issues in 2024 that impacted performance. Carlton had the same thing.

The issue is some Collingwood fans on here seem to have an issue when Carlton fans discuss injuries and yet they are free to do it as much as they want. Injuries are a significant factor in our game and they don't impact all teams equally. So comments like "everyone gets injuries" is just meaningless.

 

[Fadge]

This aint analysis:

Games actually played by players deemed at the start of 2024 to be our best '23 versus the games played by players that are my approximations of Carlton's equivalents. It's rather stark and bares testament to what some claimants have been saying. Collingwood were hamstrung by key position injuries throughout the 2024 season. It's a difference of some 50+ games extra for one team from your key players, probably enough to influence the outcome of a season wouldn't you think?

Carlton people are all too aware of what a season looks like without a Curnow or a McKay so to have one where you had no Weitering, a quarter of a season from Cerra and McKay and half a season from Cripps (ALL at the same time)....well surely people understand the consequences. Once again I pay respect to Carlton and it's supporters and hope that all this BS can just dissipate, we're two proud clubs and hopefully we're about to both have exciting seasons. The need for oneupmanship is beyond me?

View attachment 2207447

This is absolutely spot on, and what I have been saying for months about the return Carlton have got from their prime movers not only in 2024, but for the past 3 years.

They have actually seen a 'better than par' return re: availability of their better/most important players.

But because they lose Silvagni, Martin, Cuningham, Marchbank, etc. to injury (three of whom aren't even on their list any longer), they are 'decimated'!

 

[Corn Cobbers]

This is absolutely spot on, and what I have been saying for months about the return Carlton have got from their prime movers not only in 2024, but for the past 3 years.

They have actually seen a 'better than par' return re: availability of their better/most important players.

But because they lose Silvagni, Martin, Cuningham, Marchbank, etc. to injury (three of whom aren't even on their list any longer), they are 'decimated'!

Stunning evidence, presented in good faith with no desire for one-upmanship, think that settles the argument

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[Robertio]

How do you explain the current formline then of no wins versus top 15 teams since 21 June 2024? [emoji2955]

Blues are cooked [emoji505] only now better than Richmond, Melbourne and West Coast

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It's January mate noone has played since the GF, you nuffies are punch drunk.

 

[Arr0w]

This aint analysis:

Games actually played by players deemed at the start of 2024 to be our best '23 versus the games played by players that are my approximations of Carlton's equivalents. It's rather stark and bares testament to what some claimants have been saying. Collingwood were hamstrung by key position injuries throughout the 2024 season. It's a difference of some 50+ games extra for one team from your key players, probably enough to influence the outcome of a season wouldn't you think?

Carlton people are all too aware of what a season looks like without a Curnow or a McKay so to have one where you had no Weitering, a quarter of a season from Cerra and McKay and half a season from Cripps (ALL at the same time)....well surely people understand the consequences. Once again I pay respect to Carlton and it's supporters and hope that all this BS can just dissipate, we're two proud clubs and hopefully we're about to both have exciting seasons. The need for oneupmanship is beyond me?

View attachment 2207447

The p1ssing contests about which comparison player for each side is entertaining, but flawed

A player like Newman might be important to our structure, but that might not be the case for the Pies

Conversely getting Mitchell on the park is important to the Pies, but not so much for us

I don't use injuries as an excuse, but the lack of continuity does impact a team's performance over the course of the year

 

[carlton_99]

The confirmation bias on here is extraordinary. You either analyse all the data or none of it. You can't pick and choose what data to analyse and which to ignore to suit the point you want to make.

 

[Robroy22]

The need for one-upmanship is beyond you and yet you selectively choose data that attempts to show Collingwood one-upping Carlton at something?

Once again this is the AFL not the NBA. Looking at injuries to a select few players and ignoring others makes no sense. Including players that retired is also odd especially considering you have now had a trade period to replace them and have chosen not to. Clearly you don't think it's a pressing area of concern. Collingwood had significant injury issues in 2024 that impacted performance. Carlton had the same thing.

The issue is some Collingwood fans on here seem to have an issue when Carlton fans discuss injuries and yet they are free to do it as much as they want. Injuries are a significant factor in our game and they don't impact all teams equally. So comments like "everyone gets injuries" is just meaningless.

Can you please show me the "selectivity" of my "key players choice"? Key position players are inherently key position players are they not?

Including players that retired...refers I suppose to Nathan Murphy (who was medically retired due to concussion issues...he didn't simply choose to retire nor would the club have chosen to lose him for an entire season). Yes the club has tried to draft a replacement full back in young Cochrane from Sydney, so you're incorrect there I'm afraid.

I acknowledge that Carlton also had injuries in 2024, my point in all this is that had those injuries been to your KEY players other than TDK who's a ripper, then as has happened to Carlton in other years (when Charlie or Harry have been injured) they too would have struggled to play finals.

I don't stand up for Collingwood posters who ply this oneupmanship rubbish, I simply replied to an old mate in Arrow that all the analysis was hilarious, however the way this is going, perhaps he was right!

 

[Robertio]

This is absolutely spot on, and what I have been saying for months about the return Carlton have got from their prime movers not only in 2024, but for the past 3 years.

They have actually seen a 'better than par' return re: availability of their better/most important players.

But because they lose Silvagni, Martin, Cuningham, Marchbank, etc. to injury (three of whom aren't even on their list any longer), they are 'decimated'!

DeKoning not important? We were 2nd when he went down just after he played the highest ranking game of the season by anyone.

 

[Fadge]

DeKoning not important? We were 2nd when he went down just after he played the highest ranking game of the season by anyone.

Where have I said De Koning isn't important?

 

[Robertio]

This aint analysis:

Games actually played by players deemed at the start of 2024 to be our best '23 versus the games played by players that are my approximations of Carlton's equivalents. It's rather stark and bares testament to what some claimants have been saying. Collingwood were hamstrung by key position injuries throughout the 2024 season. It's a difference of some 50+ games extra for one team from your key players, probably enough to influence the outcome of a season wouldn't you think?

Carlton people are all too aware of what a season looks like without a Curnow or a McKay so to have one where you had no Weitering, a quarter of a season from Cerra and McKay and half a season from Cripps (ALL at the same time)....well surely people understand the consequences. Once again I pay respect to Carlton and it's supporters and hope that all this BS can just dissipate, we're two proud clubs and hopefully we're about to both have exciting seasons. The need for oneupmanship is beyond me?

View attachment 2207447

There is 22 players in a game plan and every player out on the ground has a job to do, if you have a V8 and lose a cylinder the engine won't run the same.

 

[Robertio]

Where have I said De Koning isn't important?

You didn't mention him in our injuries did you?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

DeKoning not important? We were 2nd when he went down just after he played the highest ranking game of the season by anyone.

He played in the Giants and Bulldogs games which is where your current slump started, you were already in free-fall when TDK got injured, no excuse there

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[Robertio]

He played in the Giants and Bulldogs games which is where your current slump started, you were already in free-fall when TDK got injured, no excuse there

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Who says there is no excuses?

 

[Robroy22]

You didn't mention him in our injuries did you?

I did

 

[Robertio]

I did

Yeah but i wasn't replying to you mate.

 

[Robroy22]

There is 22 players in a game plan and every player out on the ground has a job to do, if you have a V8 and lose a cylinder the engine won't run the same.

Yep, 23 players and all have a job, but if you have a V8 and you lose a cylinder....yeah BIG problems. Losing a windscreen wiper or an ashtray....not so much.

Gun players (KEY PLAYERS) are a much bigger problem than a role player.

 

[Fadge]

You didn't mention him in our injuries did you?

Oh, sorry.

Was I meant to include EVERY player who missed 6 games or more?

I have previously said the return of approximately 90% of all games played from your best 6 players - including TDK - is as good as any club can expect.

And Carlton rely on their best 6 more than any other team in the competition.

 

[Robertio]

Yep, 23 players and all have a job, but if you have a V8 and you lose a cylinder....yeah BIG problems. Losing a windscreen wiper or an ashtray....not so much.

Gun players (KEY PLAYERS) are a much bigger problem than a role player.

Don't agree with you mate, takes a full team working together to win, players blocking at stoppages, taggers out there to stop the oppositions good players ect, can't do it if every part isn't working.

 

[Robertio]

Oh, sorry.

Was I meant to include EVERY player who missed 6 games or more?

I have previously said the return of approximately 90% of all games played from your best 6 players - including TDK - is as good as any club can expect.

And Carlton rely on their best 6 more than any other team in the competition.

You were just being you mate no harm done.

 

[Robroy22]

Don't agree with you mate, takes a full team working together to win, players blocking at stoppages, taggers out there to stop the oppositions good players ect, can't do it if every part isn't working.

I'm not disagreeing with that point, but its a lot easier to replace role players that block and taggers that tag than it is to replace your key position specialists.

 

[carlton_99]

Can you please show me the "selectivity" of my "key players choice"? Key position players are inherently key position players are they not?

I don't have an issue with the specific players you chose for Collingwood- my point was in a proper analysis you should be looking at all of the data not some of it. Here, you are comparing injuries between 10 Collingwood players and 10 Carlton players that simply play in a similar position. That doesn't mean that an injury to one has an equal impact on team performance as an injury to the other. For instance, you have Cameron and Pittonet together and yet an injury to Cameron would have a far greater impact on Collingwood than an injury to Pittonet would have on Carlton, assuming their other rucks a fit. The reverse could be said with McKay/Curnow vs McStay/Mihocek. Carlton rely on their talls far more than Collingwood does and so injuries to them impact Carlton more than injuries to the other duo for Collingwood.

Mind you, I have said previously that Collingwood did have significant injury issues during the season. The injury analysis across the list shows this. But so did Carlton.

Including players that retired...refers I suppose to Nathan Murphy (who was medically retired due to concussion issues...he didn't simply choose to retire nor would the club have chosen to lose him for an entire season). Yes the club has tried to draft a replacement full back in young Cochrane from Sydney, so you're incorrect there I'm afraid.

I was referring to your comparison between Murphy and Weitering. Murphy was retired yes so missed the whole season. My point was if Collingwood thought KPD was a pressing need they would have recruited one that can play straight away for them in 2025. Not a pick #47 KPD that is likely going to need multiple years to be ready. I thought Murphy was your best defender and so thought this would be an area you target in the trade period but you must think Frampton/Dean are good enough for the spot. Therefore, comparing Murphy to Weitering makes very little sense imo.

I acknowledge that Carlton also had injuries in 2024, my point in all this is that had those injuries been to your KEY players other than TDK who's a ripper, then as has happened to Carlton in other years (when Charlie or Harry have been injured) they too would have struggled to play finals.

If Carlton had even more injuries yes it would have been more difficult to make finals. The issue here is Carlton already had significant injury issues all year and the numbers across the list and best 23 back that up. Pretty sure they had the 2nd most games lost to injury in the AFL overall and to what Champion Data determined as their best team. And this has been an issue that has plagued Carlton for years and years - and this is the first year they have attempted to do something about it.

So again, just because we didn't have Curnow or McKay miss half a season it doesn't mean anything because injuries impacted all the players around them plus our depth. That can be just as significant and hurts your ability to build any sort of cohesion with the team when you are constantly making changes to these players. We then copped the bulk of the injuries to our "key players" at the most important time of the season as well which was really the cherry on the cake.