Autopsy Round 10 - West Coast v St Kilda

[StCicatriz]

How was that cherry picking?

However you define kids- age 22, age 21- we had more than West Coast.


nothing is being "justified".

This isn't a bloody court of law.

West Coast played 12 games in Perth last year- won 4, with 3 by 35 points or more. Lost 4 by 14 points or less

Them getting pumped in Perth is the exception, not the norm. (Contrary to perception)


There were no games between August and March..

Who's cherry picking now?


"Justifying"?

just explaining - with facts not emotion- why a loss wasn't surprising.

Call that whatever you want. Up to you.


Publicly?

of course not. They aren't idiots.

but the fact he didn't select say, Clark and Jones- tells you he prioritised development over results. Regardless what he says. Actions speak louder than words.


How is it misleading?

Do explain.

How was that cherry picking?

However you define kids- age 22, age 21- we had more than West Coast.


nothing is being "justified".

This isn't a bloody court of law.

West Coast played 12 games in Perth last year- won 4, with 3 by 35 points or more. Lost 4 by 14 points or less

Them getting pumped in Perth is the exception, not the norm. (Contrary to perception)


There were no games between August and March..

Who's cherry picking now?


"Justifying"?

just explaining - with facts not emotion- why a loss wasn't surprising.

Call that whatever you want. Up to you.


Publicly?

of course not. They aren't idiots.

but the fact he didn't select say, Clark and Jones- tells you he prioritised development over results. Regardless what he says. Actions speak louder than words.


How is it misleading?

Do explain.

Hahaha you're kidding that it's the exception and not the norm.

Here's the games at home this year:
Loss 87 points
Loss 38 points
Loss 2 points vs the deplorable essendon
Loss 32 points

We've then allowed them to turn that around to a 28 point win!!!!

And this is what i mean you absolutely know this but you're doing your absolute best to sweep this under the carpet.

Moving onto last year:
65 point loss
10 point win
35 loint loss
13 point loss
61 point loss
9 point loss
14 point loss
35 point win in may against the dees
6 point loss
37 point win against freo who were utterly terrible
39 point win richmond lol
65 point loss

Again they lose at home consistently. Like it's a pretty ****ing solid form line.

Again you know what you are doing here. Why? Because I'm guessing you're struggling with the idea that we really are underperforming this badly!

As for the age demographic do you want to actually list the players and the games played. I'm suspecting we have more at > 200 games etc.

I suspect if you then look at something like the midfield we will be absolutely ahead in terms of quality and experience.

No games between march and august... there were three games in august. But if you want to break it down. They were on an 11 game losing streak.

They had won 5 games of their last 32 rounds of footy.

It's bleak!

We let em turn that around to a 28 point win.

 

[phantom13]

How was that cherry picking?

However you define kids- age 22, age 21- we had more than West Coast.


nothing is being "justified".

This isn't a bloody court of law.

West Coast played 12 games in Perth last year- won 4, with 3 by 35 points or more. Lost 4 by 14 points or less

Them getting pumped in Perth is the exception, not the norm. (Contrary to perception)


There were no games between August and March..

Who's cherry picking now?


"Justifying"?

just explaining - with facts not emotion- why a loss wasn't surprising.

Call that whatever you want. Up to you.


Publicly?

of course not. They aren't idiots.

but the fact he didn't select say, Clark and Jones- tells you he prioritised development over results. Regardless what he says. Actions speak louder than words.


How is it misleading?

Do explain.

The only reason the loss wasn’t suprising is because we’re shit.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

We will probably beat the Suns now

Bipolar Saints

 

[mad-saint-guy]

One thing that surprised me yesterday, has Phillipou always been dual sided? For some reason I thought often looked for his left.

I saw him hemmed in yesterday, but he did a nice little jig and fed it into the forward 50 with his right.

Pou is the kind of obsessive psycho who would spend a month at training only using his non preferred to make sure that he can add that string to his bow. Love the bloke. We need more like him instead of the shy, anxiety-riddled Billings types that we spent 15 years recruiting.

 

[Saintbloke]

A tragic lead up to the game, but all the same, it was a timid team effort, one of a few this season. Almost like a disconnect between coach and playing group.
We have lost the fire in the belly we had earlier in the season in our wins- unwillingness to put real physical pressure on, weak tackling etc. not a good sign.
Thank goodness Higgins is doing his job- a pity a few more don’t play with his passion.

 

[PJays]

Because I'm guessing you're struggling with the idea that we really are underperforming this badly!

This quote seems to be the core of your issue.

Again, surprise surprise, you're incorrect.

St Kilda was widely tipped for bottom 4.

We're not bottom 4.

Ergo, we aren't "under performing".

I'm on record on this forum, many weeks ago, suggesting we'll win 9-11 games for the season.

4-6 with 8 from 13 remaining at Marvel. We're right on track.

One game doesn't make a season.

The same was true after we beat Geelong, and after we smashed Freo.

 

[PJays]

The only reason the loss wasn’t suprising is because we’re shit.

If by "shit" you mean "inconsistent, rebuilding, some areas needing serious improvement, and unlikely to play finals" I totally agree.

If you mean "we lost to West Coast, that means we're worse than West Coast, the sky is falling in and the seasons over" I totally disagree.

 

[Desperate saint]

gee theres been some absolute cracker posts in here hasnt there
lol

tdk would make us better, he is not just a ruckman

owens needs to go in the middle, i dont give a **** if robert harvey thinks he is a forward, he has a completely un natural goal kicking action that is shite as soon as he isnt on carpet with a dry ball, he is born to be in the middle, he crashes, bashes and makes repeat efforts...get him around the pill

box comes in
just play him ffs, if he is the future just get him in

collard needs a spell, butlers been injuried and was ordinary on the weekend, not sure if he needs to find some form after the injury and also not sure who else can come in to replace lance?



i know its hard people but lets not eat each other
we have had a complete shit draw form the afl
15th hardest in the league
we have been hit with injury, doogs and king going down has made it very hard, add to that losing battle and membrey, well that just adds to the probs

peeps giving hammer shit
was waiting tables not long ago, got **** all preseason, played as a forward and then at very short notice been told to go down back, yes he will make mistakes but that ball is coming in thick and fast and errors are going to happen, he has been there ten mins, ive seen multiple times when he has saved our ass, and sure, times when shit has not gone right, but thats going to happen, how old is he?, how many games has he played?
should we play him forward and have wilks as the number one defender?
how do we think that would go?

we have blooded some youth, theyre going to tire, make bad mistakes etc maybe we blooded too many but with the injuries we have had we no choice

im as pissed as everyone
ive been following since 85 and ive seen it all
theres people here that have financially supported this club for 50 years, i reckon they've seen a bit, reckon they've been upset a few times as well...and rightly so
if loyal members get frustrated and need time out and decide theyre not going to financially support the club then so be it, we are not entitled to tell them how they should feel, they've not said they dont or wont support us, they're just tired of forking out money...fair enough too

yesterday i was more than glass half empty but today the sun came up and its only footy.
hug ya partner, ya kids, ya mum, ya mates, ask them how they are doing, and offer help if they need it....thats what matters

ps
how ****ing shite was the umpiring
FMD!

well said

 

[phantom13]

If by "shit" you mean "inconsistent, rebuilding, some areas needing serious improvement, and unlikely to play finals" I totally agree.

If you mean "we lost to West Coast, that means we're worse than West Coast, the sky is falling in and the seasons over" I totally disagree.

I mean shit enough to lose a game to the consensus worst team in footy this year.

You seem pretty desperate to make excuses and defend a shitful performance whilst also acknowledging it was a shitful performance, maybe just let people vent.

The only reason the season isn’t over this year is because everyone not top 4 or bottom 4 is wildly inconsistent and might fall ass backwards into finals. As it stands we might be bottom 4 anyway.

 

[Jade Buddha]

Not surprised really. WC had all the motivation with Selwood. They played their grand final and every kick and handball came off. They haven’t done that in years.
We played kids and had no true FF or FB. Kids got pushed around by their senior players. Lessons to be learnt.

 

[BrutThough]

If by "shit" you mean "inconsistent, rebuilding, some areas needing serious improvement, and unlikely to play finals" I totally agree.

If you mean "we lost to West Coast, that means we're worse than West Coast, the sky is falling in and the seasons over" I totally disagree.

Exactly. Just like beating Geelong or finally beating Port in Adelaide didnt mean we had arrived as a consistent team, losing this game doesnt mean we are a hopeless disaster.

Like it said all the time, reality exists somewhere in the middle. It's not an excuse or 'accepting mediocrity' to acknowledge that and accept we live in the space between those two things.

We are going to have great wins against good teams and have bad losses against bottom teams. There is no need to extreme emotional reactions either way.

 

[PJays]

I mean shit enough to lose a game to the consensus worst team in footy this year.

What's your point?

Gold Coast lost to Richmond earlier this season.....

You seem pretty desperate to make excuses and defend a shitful performance

I'm not defending anything- nor have I ever suggested it wasn't a shit performance

whilst also acknowledging it was a shitful performance, maybe just let people vent

People are allowed to vent....

And I'm allowed to point out how ridiculous they sound.

Cool?

The only reason the season isn’t over this year is because everyone not top 4 or bottom 4 is wildly inconsistent

That's been my point the entire time- pro sports is an inconsistent business

After all that, glad we understand each other!

Why are you arguing again?

 

[BucketsandBanger]

We will probably beat the Suns now

Bipolar Saints

lol we aren't winning this, the things that Rowell, Anderson, Miller and co are gonna do to our midfield...... Whats the record for clearance differential?

Edit: lol I just looked it up and ironically the biggest clearance differential in a match ever is us against the Suns in 2018 +33 haha maybe there's hope!

 

[Sully111]

Considering we’ve had a few different coaches and coaching groups over the past decade and a half, not just the same people all this time, why do you think it is that we have the same, ongoing issue re lack of skills, lack of men’s bodies etc - certainly in the older players? The skills have been average for years.

Genuine question.

It's a very good question.

To be honest, I'd only be guessing as I don't know what the focus is when they review games or what emphasis is put on skills and composure at training.

I think targeting players who are naturally good kicks couldn't hurt.

I think historically Ross has been known as a more system based coach, rather than someone where skills are the focus.

 

[HeavenlySources]

I think the next two years we are like the Hawks of 2022-2023. We haven’t yet traded out our Tom Mitchell and Jaeger O’meara but we have cleared a lot of dead wood and are in the first year of a proper rebuild. Drafting might have started in 2021 but the list hasn’t been fully cleansed until this offseason. Best case is we bounce in 2.5 years

 

[beside the seaside]

Exactly. Just like beating Geelong or finally beating Port in Adelaide didnt mean we had arrived as a consistent team, losing this game doesnt mean we are a hopeless disaster.

Like it said all the time, reality exists somewhere in the middle. It's not an excuse or 'accepting mediocrity' to acknowledge that and accept we live in the space between those two things.

We are going to have great wins against good teams and have bad losses against bottom teams. There is no need to extreme emotional reactions either way.

The concern for me is until we really target the deficiency of talls on our list we are really just treading water this year. Have to keep looking for signs I guess, I thought Travaglia was great when he came on and should start next week. Looking forward to checking out what Tauru can do in a couple of weeks time.

I would hold out hope that we could get on a roll and start rolling sides but the deficiencies in every area of the ground look too big. I think we're going to need a big and very well thought out trade period this year. Sounds like it's coming this off season (maybe akin to what the Crows did last year), until then I'll try to enjoy the wins when they come.

 

[Broski]

Everyone is well within their rights to vent about the awful performance against the Eagles. It is the most frustrated and borderline angry I've been in a long time. We didn't look AFL standard at any stage of that match.

The most frustrating part for me is the fact that majority of our team, including key players like Sinclair etc, love to bomb the ball long without even looking for a short pass. We coughed the ball up against the worst team in football atm.

However, this match provided a great opportunity for us to realise that we have plenty of work to do to this list. Having literally zero key position players at either end will not win you games, same as having an incompetent midfield.

Will we play finals this year? No. And that's reflective of where we are at the moment. We are investing heavily into the youth as I am sure Ross realises that the senior group is taking us nowhere near premiership contention.

Many of the youngsters we have look like they have a good future at the level, but they are kids. Putting a dozen kids up against teams like the Lions, Dogs etc is always going to be a recipe for disaster... no matter how optimistic you are.

Importantly, we need to find a way to recruit players between that 24-28 range that will balance our list and allow us to have sustained success. Good players are hard to get, even more so when you are the Saints.

That's why it's going to be such a crucial offseason. Bringing in several players that improve our list - like Bergman, TDK (not crazy about) and Aleer - will make us better, but ultimately it is all about cost.

However, we still need to be competitive throughout the rest of this year to attract these players. Do we put the cue in the rack for a low pick, or do we play to win as many games as possible and back our recruiting team to nail our picks.

For me, we simply need to keep trying to be competitive and win games. Doing this will help the development of the core that will drive this club forward. Who knows when our young list will "bounce"... hopefully sooner than later.

I know we aren't the Hawks, but they were copping the "I don't see light at the end of the tunnel for this club" type talks when they decided to trust their youth. We just need to stick to the plan, even though many of us will question it short-term.

While I don't want to, I will still find a way to watch the game against the Suns this Sunday. That's because I am a gluten for punishment and my mood is tightly aligned with this stupid club hahah. Go Saints.

 

[PJays]

The concern for me is until we really target the deficiency of talls on our list we are really just treading water this year.

Clearly, if this team is ever going to contend for a premiership in the next few years, we need:

- More key position players

- Better midfield

It's tough when we're missing 2 first choice talls (King, Howard) and a depth tall (Cordy) but we'll need to add more. Unfortunately Keeler still looks out of his depth.

With midfield, hopefully Phillipou, Travaglia and maybe Owens or NWM transition into mids, we select another with our 1st round pick and we get one from free agency. That, added to Windhager, Clark, Garcia, Boxshall could provide a solid nucleus in the future.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Let Corey coach for a few weeks and have rtb attend a leadership course in Wisconsin.

 

[The Jack]

West Coast vs St Kilda

Players aged 22 and under
St K 11, WC 8

Players with 20 games experience or less
St K 6, WC 3

Players with 100 games experience or more
StK 9, WC 10

Crowd: 42,860 (Capacity 60,000)

So St Kilda was the younger team. 4th youngest in the AFL (by average age) on the weekend, but playing more kids than anyone.

Playing in Perth. Probably most of St Kilda's team had played there two or three times in their careers. Or not at all.

Who cares that West Coast have been struggling. Winning interstate is never easy for young players.

Plus, West Coast were riding high after getting so close to winning the previous week- being denied a shot at a winning goal by a brilliant chase down tackle.

And to top it off a recent premiership player of theirs passed away. Ensuring plenty of emotion in the three-quarters full stadium.

This is why I was very close to tipping West Coast.

And why the teeth gnashing in this thread is absurd.

Carry on.

We are pretty good at finding excuses. Best in the AFL. Injuries, umpires, young, bee sting etc etc. I’m over them tbh.

West Coast are a basket case. Basic numbers confirm this. The football world knows this.

For where we are, and supposedly heading, I personally think the performance was totally unacceptable and a real concern.

 

[BrutThough]

The concern for me is until we really target the deficiency of talls on our list we are really just treading water this year. Have to keep looking for signs I guess, I thought Travaglia was great when he came on and should start next week. Looking forward to checking out what Tauru can do in a couple of weeks time.

I would hold out hope that we could get on a roll and start rolling sides but the deficiencies in every area of the ground look too big. I think we're going to need a big and very well thought out trade period this year. Sounds like it's coming this off season (maybe akin to what the Crows did last year), until then I'll try to enjoy the wins when they come.

It was a real failure of the list management team to not bring in a replacement for Battle. We could all see the deficiency on the list without him so this backline issue was extremely foreseeable. It's actually hard to believe how short we are as a list overall. I get that runners and mids are important but we really have overlooked that area for the past few years and are now feeling the impact of it/

We need to get on a small run to get those rumoured players over the line. And the good news is our fixture opens up slightly in the back half with more winnable games.

 

[StCicatriz]

This quote seems to be the core of your issue.

Again, surprise surprise, you're incorrect.

St Kilda was widely tipped for bottom 4.

We're not bottom 4.

Ergo, we aren't "under performing".

I'm on record on this forum, many weeks ago, suggesting we'll win 9-11 games for the season.

4-6 with 8 from 13 remaining at Marvel. We're right on track.

One game doesn't make a season.

The same was true after we beat Geelong, and after we smashed Freo.

"widely tipped for bottom 4" hahahaha my god. the copium is strong! another cherry-picked alternative fact.

not only did we completely pivot away from the narrative WCE was this competitive beast at any game at optus but we've now we've announced our selves as a bottom 4 club!

but thats ok we are right on track! right on track for what exactly? are you saying we are going to bounce back from here or are we now on track of placing as a bottom 4 club?

 

[StCicatriz]

We are pretty good at finding excuses. Best in the AFL. Injuries, umpires, young, bee sting etc etc. I’m over them tbh.

West Coast are a basket case. Basic numbers confirm this. The football world knows this.

For where we are, and supposedly heading, I personally think the performance was totally unacceptable and a real concern.

he needs a new avatar:


"how many games have the USA won away from home? last time i checked their recent form is 1-1."
"havent you heard of vietnam"
"whats the average age of our soldiers? they have too many kids 18-21. how many insurgencies played do they have?"
"the USA are still in the cold war. they haven't won anything against a big nation in over 60 years"
"the USA are tipped to lose Afghanistan"
"Kane Cornes say's their fighter jets are no good. Damien Barrett just released a sliding doors saying their tanks won't make it on land and therefore they will lose the war. Caro has criticised the amount of white male senators above the age of 50 they have. do you know more than them?"

 

[Saints43]

It was a real failure of the list management team to not bring in a replacement for Battle.

It really does look as though we believed Battle was staying up until the last second, doesn't it?
Of course we should have contingency plans for anything happening to a list position but we certainly hadn't prepared properly for him going.

 

[Kennedy84]

How is Dodson tracking? I wouldn't mind getting some games into him, who knows, we might not need tdk in a few years time.