Draft Review 2008 - Re-do the 2008 draft

[the distributer]

This is the difference between you and me - I don't place such a great importance on stats - I look for hurt factor and influence - For me, Rockliff has limited impact in the midfield - has good hands in close, clean ball handler, but kicking is only solid, doesn't have breakaway pace. In the forward line, rockliff produces a bigger bag of tricks - can find space,make space for team-mates, and is very good at spotting up targets by hand or foot.

But a forward should be creative, it's pretty much their job, and when it comes to forwards there are many better than Rockliff. IMO

 

[Tragic sainter]

It's a tough one. He'd certainly be in contention for the top 5, but it's very hard to say. Would take him in a heartbeat at #7 where Brisbane's pick was in 2008, but only time will tell if he would have been picked.

Put it this way, if he played midfield every game this year, he would have contested Ablett and Selwood for the Brownlow. That's how much of an influence he has on the game.

The brownlow isn't the best indicator of how good a player is. Rockliff didn't have much competition for votes. Beams is clearly ahead of Rockliff at this point in their careers.

 

[Harris Specter]

The brownlow isn't the best indicator of how good a player is. Rockliff didn't have much competition for votes. Beams is clearly ahead of Rockliff at this point in their careers.

How do you come to this conclusion? I feel they're pretty even, even would have Beams marginally ahead, but to say 'clearly ahead' is a bit of an abberation.

 

[Quigley]

Yep. He might be in that 5-10 range.

Naitanui, Hannebery & Beams are comfortably (ie. without even blinking) better players at this stage. Ziebell, Zaharakis, Hurley, Sidebottom, Hartlett and others could be argued.

Before I get pinged on the Zaha & Hurley, one has won a B&F in a finals team and the other has had to battle injuries but I obviously know a lot more about those two than other players.

Zaharakis and Hurley are in the 10-20 discussion and Hurley could well lose his spot in the side next year or at least be forced into the backline (where he is probably best suited anyway). Not seeing them near the top 10.

FWIW I still take Rich over Rockliff. Rich has trouble shaking the tag but is slowly improving and there is still a jump that many mids make at about 24 which if he makes it he could be right up there with anyone in the competition. His hurt factor is as high as any player out there and if he can up his disposal count to 25 per game say he will win a Brownlow.

 

[the distributer]

It's a tough one. He'd certainly be in contention for the top 5, but it's very hard to say. Would take him in a heartbeat at #7 where Brisbane's pick was in 2008, but only time will tell if he would have been picked.

Put it this way, if he played midfield every game this year, he would have contested Ablett and Selwood for the Brownlow. That's how much of an influence he has on the game.

The mind boggles.

 

[the distributer]

How do you come to this conclusion? I feel they're pretty even, even would have Beams marginally ahead, but to say 'clearly ahead' is a bit of an abberation.

Beams kicks more goals, averages more possessions, averages more clearances, is a better contested player, better skills all round, are those facts aberrations?

 

[Tragic sainter]

How do you come to this conclusion? I feel they're pretty even, even would have Beams marginally ahead, but to say 'clearly ahead' is a bit of an abberation.

I come to this conclusion by watching a lot of football. I won't even go into beams' statistical advantage but when you watch them play beams has a ton of hurt factor. Rockliff gets a lot of cheap kicks and tends to just chip the ball about.

 

[Harris Specter]

Beams kicks more goals, averages more possessions, averages more clearances, is a better contested player, better skills all round, are those facts aberrations?

Where on earth are you getting all these statistics from?

​

Dayne Beams Name Tom Rockliff​

Collingwood Magpies Team Brisbane Lions​

Midfield Position Midfield, Forward​

91 Career Games 83​

Southporth Sharks Origin Murray Bushrangers​

February 12, 1990 Date of Birth February 22, 1990​

23yr 9mth Age 23yr 9mth​

186cm Height 185cm​

85kg Weight 85kg​

2008 National Draft Last Drafted In 2008 Pre-Season Draft​

Round 2, Pick #29 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #5​

Collingwood Magpies Last Drafted By Brisbane Lions​

Career Stats for Season Career​

91 Games 83​

11.8 Kicks Per Game 13.3​

11.9 Handballs Per Game 12.0​

23.8 Disposals Per Game 25.3​

4.6 Marks Per Game 4.8​

1.0 Goals Per Game 0.5​

0.8 Behinds Per Game 0.5​

3.4 Tackles Per Game 4.5​

0 Hitouts Per Game 0​

0.9 Frees For Per Game 0.9​

0.5 Frees Against Per Game 0.9​

Apart from goals, they're pretty much even. Can't find clearances, but will update when I do.

 

[Tragic sainter]

Where on earth are you getting all these statistics from?

​

Dayne Beams Name Tom Rockliff​

Collingwood Magpies Team Brisbane Lions​

Midfield Position Midfield, Forward​

91 Career Games 83​

Southporth Sharks Origin Murray Bushrangers​

February 12, 1990 Date of Birth February 22, 1990​

23yr 9mth Age 23yr 9mth​

186cm Height 185cm​

85kg Weight 85kg​

2008 National Draft Last Drafted In 2008 Pre-Season Draft​

Round 2, Pick #29 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #5​

Collingwood Magpies Last Drafted By Brisbane Lions​

Career Stats for Season Career​

91 Games 83​

11.8 Kicks Per Game 13.3​

11.9 Handballs Per Game 12.0​

23.8 Disposals Per Game 25.3​

4.6 Marks Per Game 4.8​

1.0 Goals Per Game 0.5​

0.8 Behinds Per Game 0.5​

3.4 Tackles Per Game 4.5​

0 Hitouts Per Game 0​

0.9 Frees For Per Game 0.9​

0.5 Frees Against Per Game 0.9​

Apart from goals, they're pretty much even. Can't find clearances, but will update when I do.

Why don't you go from 2012 onwards when beams hit his straps?

 

[the distributer]

Where on earth are you getting all these statistics from?

​

Dayne Beams Name Tom Rockliff​

Collingwood Magpies Team Brisbane Lions​

Midfield Position Midfield, Forward​

91 Career Games 83​

Southporth Sharks Origin Murray Bushrangers​

February 12, 1990 Date of Birth February 22, 1990​

23yr 9mth Age 23yr 9mth​

186cm Height 185cm​

85kg Weight 85kg​

2008 National Draft Last Drafted In 2008 Pre-Season Draft​

Round 2, Pick #29 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #5​

Collingwood Magpies Last Drafted By Brisbane Lions​

Career Stats for Season Career​

91 Games 83​

11.8 Kicks Per Game 13.3​

11.9 Handballs Per Game 12.0​

23.8 Disposals Per Game 25.3​

4.6 Marks Per Game 4.8​

1.0 Goals Per Game 0.5​

0.8 Behinds Per Game 0.5​

3.4 Tackles Per Game 4.5​

0 Hitouts Per Game 0​

0.9 Frees For Per Game 0.9​

0.5 Frees Against Per Game 0.9​

Apart from goals, they're pretty much even. Can't find clearances, but will update when I do.

FFS, why use career stats? Beams played perm forward his first 2 years, compare them on their best years to date then you will see what Beams is capable of, and what Rocklif isn't.

 

[Harris Specter]

Why don't you go from 2012 onwards when beams hit his straps?

FFS, why use career stats? Beams played perm forward his first 2 years, compare them on their best years to date then you will see what Beams is capable of, and what Rocklif isn't.

I thought the topic on hand was to find out who has been the better player so far in their career, not who has had the better season. Granted, Beams had an outstanding 2012, and Rockliff had one in 2013.

 

[Tragic sainter]

I thought the topic on hand was to find out who has been the better player so far in their career, not who has had the better season. Granted, Beams had an outstanding 2012, and Rockliff had one in 2013.

The topic is redo the draft. And if the draft was re done recruiters would see that beams is clearly the better player.

 

[liz]

FFS, why use career stats? Beams played perm forward his first 2 years, compare them on their best years to date then you will see what Beams is capable of, and what Rocklif isn't.

Reality is that many players have one or two fantastic seasons during their career but can't sustain that level. At the moment, Beams has played one great season - 2012. His 2010 was also very good for such a young player but his 2011 was forgettable (I know there were reasons) and his 2013 was ruined by injury.

I think the form Beams showed late in 2013 and his progression from 2010 have most people expecting he will be able to return to something like his 2012 form on a regular basis. But until he's actually done so, it is a bit soon to be rating him as the clearly best player from this draft.

The same goes for most of these players. They are just entering their prime and it is from this point on that they need to maintain the high standards they have shown glimpses of to date. There is a pretty good group who have shown they have the ability, but it's too soon to definitely order the likes of Sloane, Beams, Rich, Hannebury, Rockliff, Zaharakis et al.

FWIW I do agree that Beams' best has thus far been more enticing than Rockliff's best and I am pretty sure most neutral supporters would, at this stage of their careers, pick Beams over Rockliff without much hestitation.

 

[the distributer]

Reality is that many players have one or two fantastic seasons during their career but can't sustain that level. At the moment, Beams has played one great season - 2012. His 2010 was also very good for such a young player but his 2011 was forgettable (I know there were reasons) and his 2013 was ruined by injury.

I think the form Beams showed late in 2013 and his progression from 2010 have most people expecting he will be able to return to something like his 2012 form on a regular basis. But until he's actually done so, it is a bit soon to be rating him as the clearly best player from this draft.

The same goes for most of these players. They are just entering their prime and it is from this point on that they need to maintain the high standards they have shown glimpses of to date. There is a pretty good group who have shown they have the ability, but it's too soon to definitely order the likes of Sloane, Beams, Rich, Hannebury, Rockliff, Zaharakis et al.

FWIW I do agree that Beams' best has thus far been more enticing than Rockliff's best and I am pretty sure most neutral supporters would, at this stage of their careers, pick Beams over Rockliff without much hestitation.

Beams averages this year stacked up to his 2012 averages though.

 

[Quigley]

FFS, why use career stats? Beams played perm forward his first 2 years, compare them on their best years to date then you will see what Beams is capable of, and what Rocklif isn't.

And Rockliff has been stuck in the forward pocket for extended periods each of the last two years. The last 8 games of this year probably is a good comparison given that is all the games Beams played and that is also when Rockliff went back into the midfield full time. That probably shows where they are at.

Rockliff - 32.25 disposals per game, 6.6 tackles per game, 6.4 clearances per game and 0 goals.
Beams - 28.5 disposals per game, 3.9 tackles per game, 6.8 clearances per game and 6 goals

Pretty solid numbers from each and a pretty strong argument could be made that Rockliffs were better.

 

[Ironmonger]

So are you saying Brisbane would take Rockliff at 1? Cause that's the point I was arguing.

I feel like a laid out a case why Rockliff is the better option for Brisbane, and all you've done is rubbish that with a bunch of assertions.

I'm really not interested in whether Beams is better than Rockliff, but I stand by my point that if Brisbane could pick one of those two players right now, they would pick Rockliff. The main reasons being Rockliff's better defensive abilities and his leadership capacity, which I think Brisbane really need at the moment more than Beams' greater hurt factor.

If you want to keep this discussion going, please try to engage with other people's arguments instead of dismissing them.

 

[Quigley]

Tom makes one very good point with regards to Rockliff v Beams and that is the leadership and off field stuff. Rockliff is a leader of the club (every chance to be capt this year or next) and is a model citizen off the park. Beams on the other hand was up to his eyeballs in a rape allegation and has other recreational issues which I am sure do not endear him to Buckley. Those kind of things are probably worth factoring in.

 

[38Rockliff38]

Yeah and I'm pretty happy with Jake Melksham on and off the field but I'd take Nat Fyfe over him. /same logic

I wouldn't take Fyfe over Rocky.

 

[38Rockliff38]

Take the emotion out of it and try to see that on draft day if the recruiters knew exactly how good a player was going to be up until this point they would all be sacked if they took Rockliff at 1.

This is about REDOING the draft, not what actually happened on the draft. Rockliff was a nonamer in his draft year, ofcourse we wouldn't take him in the first round. But if we had a crystal ball we certainly would of.

 

[38Rockliff38]

So are you saying Brisbane would take Rockliff at 1? Cause that's the point I was arguing.

Yeah, if Brisbane had pick 1 and a crystal ball they would of.

 

[Quigley]

I wouldn't take Fyfe over Rocky.

Busted shoulder, can't kick. Yeah Fyfe is a hack

 

[38Rockliff38]

Beams kicks more goals, averages more possessions, averages more clearances, is a better contested player, better skills all round, are those facts aberrations?

nope

 

[Harris Specter]

The topic is redo the draft. And if the draft was re done recruiters would see that beams is clearly the better player.

After 1 good season? Don't you normally take the respective career? Your ability to comprehend simple statements is quite outstanding.

 

[38Rockliff38]

I come to this conclusion by watching a lot of football. I won't even go into beams' statistical advantage but when you watch them play beams has a ton of hurt factor. Rockliff gets a lot of cheap kicks and tends to just chip the ball about.

Go watch any of the last 8 games of 2013 and tell me Rockliff doesn't have a hurt factor

 

[SizeMatters]

I can't wait until Beams plays in a bottom 8 Collingwood lineup so everyone can just STFU and realise Beams only had 1 good season because the team around him. Same can be said for Hanners