2015 Non-Crows AFL Discussion - Pt. 1

[Elite Crow]

But not many teams have kept all of their good players, moved on duds AND brought in high caliber.

Sydney used extra $. The expansion teams had extra cash to splash.

If we lost guns because they disliked the club and wanted a change ... And not brought in any quality - that would point to a retention problem imo. How many players have left to either go home or get big $ ? Nearly all of them?

I agree that losing players at their peak needs to be taken into account - bock comes to mind - even though he ended up not delivering. But then you can't put up Gunstan as a massive loss coz he was potentially going to be good.

Can't have it both ways.

I think player retention has less to do with culture, than it does with on field success or the promise of it. Sure people can argue that they are the same things ... But I disagree.

Actually you can have it both ways, Gunston was a quality youngster who was going to win our best junior award. We wanted to keep him.

It all comes down to how badly you wanted to keep them and if they still go.

Getting players in has nothing to do with how well you've kept the ones you want to keep. Sugarcoat it all you want, it doesn't make it any better.

 

[baldandbroke]

When analysing a teams retention performance, I think two things need to be considered:

1) Forget what the player turned out like, at the time what was his worth?
2) Players you bring in has nothing to do with player retention, that's player acquisition.

There is no reason we couldn't have kept the majority of our players and still recruited Betts, Jacobs and Lynch.

Actually you can have it both ways, Gunston was a quality youngster who was going to win our best junior award. We wanted to keep him. It all comes down to how badly you wanted to keep them and if they still go. Getting players in has nothing to do with how well you've kept the ones you want to keep. Sugarcoat it all you want, it doesn't make it any better.

I'm not sugar-coating anything sour-puss.

Do you believe player retention is a reflection of the club culture? If so, then why doesn't who you bring in count against who leaves? Why doesn't how they leave count in the equation?

You seem to love the doom and gloom perspective that they only left because we have a sh!t culture and no other clubs come close to our sh!t culture. Sure some players apparently wanted to come into our sh!t club but if we were really not sh!t we would have kept everyone and got everyone.

I believe retention has more to do with success and opportunity for success. That is something we have not had for a long while ... although recently we seem to be building something that might change that.

You can guarantee that if we win a premiership that players will not only want to stay, they will want to transfer in in even greater numbers.

Like I said previously some believe that is a chicken and egg argument - that without a great culture you won't win a premiership. I don't hold that view, I think lots of the clubs that are not winning the premiership have great culture.

 

[Moonwatcher]

I'm not sugar-coating anything sour-puss.

Do you believe player retention is a reflection of the club culture? If so, then why doesn't who you bring in count against who leaves? Why doesn't how they leave count in the equation?

You seem to love the doom and gloom perspective that they only left because we have a sh!t culture and no other clubs come close to our sh!t culture. Sure some players apparently wanted to come into our sh!t club but if we were really not sh!t we would have kept everyone and got everyone.

I believe retention has more to do with success and opportunity for success. That is something we have not had for a long while ... although recently we seem to be building something that might change that.

You can guarantee that if we win a premiership that players will not only want to stay, they will want to transfer in in even greater numbers.

Like I said previously some believe that is a chicken and egg argument - that without a great culture you won't win a premiership. I don't hold that view, I think lots of the clubs that are not winning the premiership have great culture.

The only player we brought in comparable (since Thompson) to Dangerfield, Tippett or Gunston is Betts. The rest have been fringe players.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

The only player we brought in comparable (since Thompson) to Dangerfield, Tippett or Gunston is Betts. The rest have been fringe players.

Jacobs is a gun.
Lynch whilst not gunston is a reasonable replacement.
Jenkins arguably is now better than tippett.

 

[Moonwatcher]

Jacobs is a gun.
Lynch whilst not gunston is a reasonable replacement.
Jenkins arguably is now better than tippett.

Agree with Jacobs, the rest have been shrewd identification of fringe players that we have developed well.

EDIT: Gunston was clearly A grade quality when he played his first game. I don't buy some of the arguments I read that it can't be called a huge loss due to him being young.

 

[adelaidecrows]

Jacobs is a gun.
Lynch whilst not gunston is a reasonable replacement.
Jenkins arguably is now better than tippett.

He is a better forward and has a lot more X Factor but Tippett is still the better ruck.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

He is a better forward and has a lot more X Factor but Tippett is still the better ruck.

What is more important to us?

Jj & Betts > tippett & we still have change.

Both are draft & fa bargains when we needed them with the sanctions.

 

[Moonwatcher]

Jenkins won't tear a final apart like Tippett did against Hawthorn and Collingwood, ironically two loses.

 

[Elite Crow]

I'm not sugar-coating anything sour-puss.

Do you believe player retention is a reflection of the club culture? If so, then why doesn't who you bring in count against who leaves? Why doesn't how they leave count in the equation?

You seem to love the doom and gloom perspective that they only left because we have a sh!t culture and no other clubs come close to our sh!t culture. Sure some players apparently wanted to come into our sh!t club but if we were really not sh!t we would have kept everyone and got everyone.

I believe retention has more to do with success and opportunity for success. That is something we have not had for a long while ... although recently we seem to be building something that might change that.

You can guarantee that if we win a premiership that players will not only want to stay, they will want to transfer in in even greater numbers.

Like I said previously some believe that is a chicken and egg argument - that without a great culture you won't win a premiership. I don't hold that view, I think lots of the clubs that are not winning the premiership have great culture.

Sugarplum I haven't said anything about club culture or reasons why players have left so I'm not sure why you are claiming I'm loving the doom and gloom of our shit culture.

Facts are we have lost more quality than any other team, bringing some players not of equal quality doesn't change who we have lost.

 

[DD#23]

He is a better forward and has a lot more X Factor but Tippett is still the better ruck.

Interesting that everybody goes on about good tall forwards being as rare as hens teeth, and conversly that the best way to pickup a ruck is to find one to rookie list or trade for a guy on the outer...

...and yet Jenkins will seemingly never be as good as Tippett was because he isn't quite as good a chop out in the ruck as Tippett for the ten minutes a game he's required to do it.

fair shake of the sauce bottle mate!

 

[Wouldbetackler]

Jenkins won't tear a final apart like Tippett did against Hawthorn and Collingwood, ironically two loses.

Jenkins kicked 4 or 5 goals in the final against Hawks this year

 

[adelaidecrows]

Interesting that everybody goes on about good tall forwards being as rare as hens teeth, and conversly that the best way to pickup a ruck is to find one to rookie list or trade for a guy on the outer...

...and yet Jenkins will seemingly never be as good as Tippett was because he isn't quite as good a chop out in the ruck as Tippett for the ten minutes a game he's required to do it.

fair shake of the sauce bottle mate!

Tippett went toe to toe against Jacobs in the Sydney game and performed well. Jenkins just doesnt seem to perform well in the ruck. His forward work more than makes up for this and I think Jenkins is a gun. If he got his timings better in the centre ruck dual he will probably smash a lot of ruckmen due to his size and leap.

 

[Moonwatcher]

Jenkins kicked 4 or 5 goals in the final against Hawks this year

It happens in low intensity games where the result is known after 10 minutes.

 

[Wouldbetackler]

Tippett went toe to toe against Jacobs in the Sydney game and performed well. Jenkins just doesnt seem to perform well in the ruck. His forward work more than makes up for this and I think Jenkins is a gun. If he got his timings better in the centre ruck dual he will probably smash a lot of ruckmen due to his size and leap.

I would think give sauce that matchup again and he will dominate him we were very flat against Sydney that game, remember he got dominated against the Eagles (Nic nat)the first game too and then he carved em up when we dominated them later on in the year

 

[baldandbroke]

Agree with Jacobs, the rest have been shrewd identification of fringe players that we have developed well. EDIT: Gunston was clearly A grade quality when he played his first game. I don't buy some of the arguments I read that it can't be called a huge loss due to him being young.

Gunstan was a bigger loss than Dangerfield in my eyes ... but the argument was put up that you needed to value them when they left, not how they turned out - he was just potential at that stage (had played 14 games) which we all know can turn out to be bugger all.

Sugarplum I haven't said anything about club culture or reasons why players have left so I'm not sure why you are claiming I'm loving the doom and gloom of our shit culture. Facts are we have lost more quality than any other team, bringing some players not of equal quality doesn't change who we have lost.

Sugarplum is good, actually got a laugh

So tell me the reason you think we have lost more quality than other team if not culture then? What is your angle? If you think we have a problem with retention that is a fair swipe directly at the club imo.

Bock - expansion team $
Davis - expansion team $
Gunstan - Success (2011 Hawks finished 3rd)
Tippett - COLA $ / success (2012 Sydney won the premiership)
Vince - Club decision
Dangerfield - went home

About the only one on that list that you can be pissed at the club about is Vince, and he was not playing anywhere near his peak when he left.

My point about who you bring in counting - is a counter to the argument that our club is somehow somewhere players want to leave.

Also - you have to add in that player movement is becoming more frequent. The league is trying to facilitate it. Four of the six above left for more AFL dollars and because of FA.

To be honest, I don't give two flying rats arses about the guys that have left. It happens in every team, it is going to happen more and more frequently. I think the club has done a fantastic job across the board recently in our efforts towards premiership success, and long may it continue to improve.

 

[1970crow]

Interesting that everybody goes on about good tall forwards being as rare as hens teeth, and conversly that the best way to pickup a ruck is to find one to rookie list or trade for a guy on the outer...

...and yet Jenkins will seemingly never be as good as Tippett was because he isn't quite as good a chop out in the ruck as Tippett for the ten minutes a game he's required to do it.

fair shake of the sauce bottle mate!

That's only valid if there's a future in Sauce only getting 10 minutes rest per game. It's annoyed me for a while and I was pleased when Walsh mentioned that he was very aware of the amount of time Sauce rucked and they were looking to ease that burden.

 

[Paladin]

Jenkins won't tear a final apart like Tippett did against Hawthorn and Collingwood, ironically two loses.

Tippett kicked 4.0 against Collingwood from 3 free kicks and a ground ball hardly tearing a final apart.

 

[*PAF]

...

So tell me the reason you think we have lost more quality than other team if not culture then? What is your angle? If you think we have a problem with retention that is a fair swipe directly at the club imo.

Bock - expansion team $
Davis - expansion team $
Gunstan - Success (2011 Hawks finished 3rd)
Tippett - COLA $ / success (2012 Sydney won the premiership)
Vince - Club decision
Dangerfield - went home

About the only one on that list that you can be pissed at the club about is Vince, and he was not playing anywhere near his peak when he left.

My point about who you bring in counting - is a counter to the argument that our club is somehow somewhere players want to leave.

Also - you have to add in that player movement is becoming more frequent. The league is trying to facilitate it. Four of the six above left for more AFL dollars and because of FA.

To be honest, I don't give two flying rats arses about the guys that have left. It happens in every team, it is going to happen more and more frequently. I think the club has done a fantastic job across the board recently in our efforts towards premiership success, and long may it continue to improve.

Nor sue Gunstan went just because he was chasing success although having Hawthorn chasing him may have helped.
IIRC from posts during that time, he hadn't quite adjusted, just like Ben Jacobs and his partner for us. All teams will get that from time to time with interstate recruits.

Not giving him an award IF he had actually won is sad though.

 

[Moonwatcher]

Tippett kicked 4.0 against Collingwood from 3 free kicks and a ground ball hardly tearing a final apart.

It took a special effort to lose the game from there ... but I don't want to relive that .

 

[Paladin]

It took a special effort to lose the game from there ... but I don't want to relive that .

 

[I Lost My Keays]

I can't wait until Hawthorn and Geelong lose their best young talent to other clubs.

 

[Scorpus]

I can't wait until Hawthorn and Geelong lose their best young talent to other clubs.

Maybe it's already happened... (Dean Gore)

 

[Moonwatcher]

I can't wait until Hawthorn and Geelong lose their best young talent to other clubs.

Ablett Jr

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I can't wait until Hawthorn and Geelong lose their best young talent to other clubs.

Hawks lost buddy.
Cats lost ablett.

That's arguably 2 of the best players in the Afl.

The issue with both of these teams won't be retaining talent but replacing all the key retiring players.

 

[Moonwatcher]

Hawthorn lost Cheney.