2018 Rolling All Australian Team

[Sprout]

It’s not different at all - the crux is that because Oliver is playing in a more successful team he is having a better season.

On an individual level Cripps has been the better player.

You showed your hand early by stating Cripps has been “comfortably better” than Oliver which is a blatantly biased statement.

 

[La Dispute]

Hahaha no way.
One had a blinder, the other an average year.
Both Oliver and Cripps are equal statistically and because of this, the one having an impact on his side winning games of footy gets the nod

That’s a casual fallacy - otherwise the AA team would be compromised almost completely of premiership players.

Cripps’ overall impact (consistently in the top 3 on ground - in almost all games) is greater than Oliver’s.

 

[La Dispute]

You showed your hand early by stating Cripps has been “comfortably better” than Oliver which is a blatantly biased statement.

I don’t think it’s biased at all.

As stated in the same post, or maybe later I believe Cripps has been in the best 5 players while Oliver the best 10-15.

That puts him comfortably ahead

 

[Sprout]

I don’t think it’s biased at all.

As stated in the same post, or maybe later I believe Cripps has been in the best 5 players while Oliver the best 10-15.

That puts him comfortably ahead

Even if we were to accept those rankings, the player ranked 5th is comfortably ahead of the player ranked 10th? Your definition of “comfortably” needs some refinement.

 

[Sando22]

Id take Cripps any day. Way more up side to his game.

You are entitled to that opinion.
Explain how he has more upside though.
Oliver is 2 years younger than Cripps and already having the same output

 

[Sando22]

That’s a casual fallacy - otherwise the AA team would be compromised almost completely of premiership players.

Cripps’ overall impact (consistently in the top 3 on ground - in almost all games) is greater than Oliver’s.

Cripps' side has won 1 game this year so I'd argue that Oliver's near identical stats are having greater impact.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Cripps' side has won 1 game this year so I'd argue that Oliver's near identical stats are having greater impact.

Those dots don't connect.

WC have won nine games this year so clearly Naitanui is having a greater impact than Gawn.

How else could anyone possibly explain WC winning more games than Melbourne?

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to Richmond games, but from what I've seen, the Eagles game and bits and pieces of others. Cotchin should be nowhere near the first 22

 

[Sando22]

Those dots don't connect.

WC have won nine games this year so clearly Naitanui is having a greater impact than Gawn.

How else could anyone possibly explain WC winning more games than Melbourne?

Nic Nat having huge impact and 100% in the conversation with Gawn and Grundy but WC have won 9 whilst Melb have won 7.
Big difference between 7 wins and 1 including some absolute thumpings so again from you, a crap point.

 

[La Dispute]

Even if we were to accept those rankings, the player ranked 5th is comfortably ahead of the player ranked 10th? Your definition of “comfortably” needs some refinement.

It’s significant in the context of the AA team. As most of the top 20 players are mids, that puts Oliver on the fringe.

I’d argue on overall performance Cripps has been easily the better player.

 

[Sando22]

It’s significant in the context of the AA team. As most of the top 20 players are mids, that puts Oliver on the fringe.

I’d argue on overall performance Cripps has been easily the better player.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...2=12&type=A&pid1=3930&pid2=4166&fid1=S&fid2=S

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Nic Nat having huge impact and 100% in the conversation with Gawn and Grundy but WC have won 9 whilst Melb have won 7.

Therefore Naitanui > Gawn. Because WC have won more games.

There is other way to explain WC winning more games than Naitanui > Gawn. Do you agree?

Big difference between 7 wins and 1 including some absolute thumpings so again from you, a crap point.

So what are the rules about when your rationale applies and when it doesn't?

 

[La Dispute]

Cripps' side has won 1 game this year so I'd argue that Oliver's near identical stats are having greater impact.

You’re assigning too much responsibility to Oliver for Melbourne’s overall performance.

He’s been one of a many factors why Melbourne are having a good season - he isn’t THE reason.

 

[Sando22]

Therefore Naitanui > Gawn. Because WC have won more games.

There is other way to explain WC winning more games than Naitanui > Gawn. Do you agree?

So what are the rules about when your rationale applies and when it doesn't?

It was to be used when two statistically near identical players are basically impossible to split.
Gawn and Nic Nat are not as close, surely you agree.
They both play in good sides. Cripps plays in a shit side.
You really are a w***er mate

 

[Sando22]

You’re assigning too much responsibility to Oliver for Melbourne’s overall performance.

He’s been one of a many factors why Melbourne are having a good season - he isn’t THE reason.

Would you say Cripps is the reason Carlton are doing so well?

 

[Trav 20]

Id take Cripps any day. Way more up side to his game.

This is incorrect.

Oliver is faster and a far better kick.

Oliver is also only 20. Wait until he reaches physical maturity at around 24.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

It was to be used when two statistically near identical players are basically impossible to split.

Who says they're impossible to split? Make the case one way or the other instead of using something that is irrelevant as the tiebreaker.

Gawn and Nic Nat are not as close, surely you agree.

WC have won more games so Naitanui must be having more impact.

What other possible explanation is there for WC winning more games?

 

[La Dispute]

Would you say Cripps is the reason Carlton are doing so well?

You’re the one laying down the line of thinking that player performance = team performance, and I’ve been saying throughout this thread that’s far too reductive.

I could imagine the carnage would encounter if Cripps wasn’t in the team though. He’s been massive

 

[Sando22]

Who says they're impossible to split? Make the case one way or the other instead of using something that is irrelevant as the tiebreaker.

WC have won more games so Naitanui must be having more impact.

What other possible explanation is there for WC winning more games?

Their stats say so. You looked at those.
Although with disposals nearly exactly the same, Oliver averages more goals, more tackles, more inside 50's, more goal assists, greater DE, far less clangers, LESS TIME ON GROUND and 70 more metres gained per game then I'm actually starting to think that it's not that close.
Oliver way ahead and is a massive reason why Melb are playing good footy.
Cripps a huge factor in how well Carlton are playing though.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Their stats say so. You looked at those.

And their stats are "identical"? I don't think so.

Although with disposals nearly exactly the same, Oliver averages more goals, more tackles, more inside 50's, more goal assists, greater DE, far less clangers, LESS TIME ON GROUND and 70 more metres gained per game then I'm actually starting to think that it's not that close.

So make that case instead of pointing to Melbourne's win-loss record, which is irrelevant.

Oliver way ahead

So go ahead and make that case. The win-loss records of the teams are irrelevant.

 

[Sando22]

And their stats are "identical"? I don't think so.

So make that case instead of pointing to Melbourne's win-loss record, which is irrelevant.

So go ahead and make that case. The win-loss records of the teams are irrelevant.

I don't think it is though.
Carlton are travelling THAT bad that I just reckon Cripps will do well to make the side.
I think he should but it'll be huge.
He's good in a reeeeally bad side but he's not GAJ at GC good.
I have Oliver ahead but there are stats in which Cripps is leading him. I just think that side by side they are very very close statistically and maybe its my red and blue coloured glasses but with two such identical players, I'm taking the mid having the impact in a side who's won 7 games this year as oppsoed to the side who's won 1.
I reckon we're going around in circles here mate so let's agree to disagree on this

 

[Damon_3388]

Or you’ve got no meaningful rebuttal to all counter-arguments to those meta, minute objections, basically nitpicking Cripps’ game which is easily explained by the context he’s operating within.

Honestly, if he's not making his teammates better or creating for others, and his main positive characteristic is simply winning the ball and damming the tide against his team, I don't think he's really among the top 6-8 midfielders in the game right now, and therefore not worthy of All-Australian selection this year.

For the record, I feel similarly about Nat Fyfe and Ben Cunnington in 2018 as well. I just don't think they individually have the hurt factor right now to match the volume of touches and contested possessions, that people primarily laud them for. "See ball, get ball, Heroball" isn't always the best and most effective option.

 

[Damon_3388]

If that's his worst then we are not worthy and I'm sorry - no Carlton player is in the best 3-5 players on the ground in a 109 point loss.

As a general comment, if you lose by more than 8 goals, players from the losing side would be lucky to get any votes IMO, unless they put in a record-setting individual game.

 

[Sando22]

As a general comment, if you lose by more than 8 goals, players from the losing side would be lucky to get any votes IMO, unless they put in a record-setting individual game.

Yeah I'd agree with that

 

[La Dispute]

Honestly, if he's not making his teammates better or creating for others, and his main positive characteristic is simply winning the ball and damming the tide against his team, I don't think he's really among the top 6-8 midfielders in the game right now, and therefore not worthy of All-Australian selection this year.

He can’t execute skills on behalf of his teammates Damo. If he’s doing his part in executing the play (aka winning the hardball and then providing a link-up option), but his teammates are turning the ball over or making other poor decisions that’s hardly an indictment on Cripps.

Can’t take the effect and make it the cause.