Play Nice 2019 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

[Aucklander]

Daily Telegraph Julian Linden 21.10
"Australian Rugby About To Tear Itself To Shreds" headline.

Behind a paywall- can anyone open, & post here?

Sweeping changes are coming soon at the board of Rugby Australia as the sport continues to tear itself apart following the Wallabies’ disastrous World Cup campaign.
Michael Cheika’s stunning admission that he had no real relationship with either the chief executive Raelene Castle or the chairman Cameron Clyne has put the spotlight on the sport’s bumbling administrators.

While Cheika fell on his sword and quit after the team’s worst World Cup performance in history, furious Australian rugby fans are turning the blowtorch on the board members who left him in the job when the alarm bells were ringing more than a year ago.

The Daily Telegraph understands that two of the three key executives could be gone within months - but that does not include Castle.

The vice-chairman Brett Robinson will be stepping down in April after serving his maximum three terms, totalling nine years.

And chairman Clyne’s future on the board is uncertain. The former banking executive has rightly copped a lot of flak, but needs the support of the membership to stay on because his second term is about to expire and he up for re-election.

At this stage, it is understood he wants to continue for another term but that could all change as calls for him to go grow louder after the on-field disaster added to the handling of the Israel Folau and Western Force public relations disasters.

Hundreds of disillusioned fans posted comments on The Daily Telegraph website calling for heads to roll and former Wallaby coach Alan Jones echoed their sentiments by saying the entire board should be sacked immediately.

“The only good thing that can be said is that the broken down vehicle that is rugby would not be hard to repair,” Jones said on 2GB.

“But it’s no use putting people in charge of the repair operation who presided over the car wreck in the first place - the car wreck we witnessed at the weekend.

“Make no mistake, Michael Cheika’s exit solves nothing and if there’s any decency in the administration their resignations should be on the desk today.”

Former Wallaby Paul McLean will also complete his second term in April and is understood to be considering stepping down, and others may also head to the exit door because of the public anger, but there are no indications as yet that Castle will join them.

Appointed in late 2017, the new chief executive officer is not on a fixed term but is facing intense scrutiny after she publicly declared she believed in Cheika’s plan to win the World Cup when even Blind Freddy could see it was destined to fail.

“Cheik didn’t select himself,” former Wallaby and Fox commentator Rod Kafer said.

“He was selected by a board and I think they’ve failed in their assessment of what is the right thing for Australian rugby.

“There are a whole range of people who should be putting their hand up now and accepting responsibility for the choices they made.”

Just who is to blame for the World Cup debacle has deeply divided the rugby community, with Tim Horan, a two-time World Cup winner for the Wallabies, speaking out in favour, both of Cheika and the board.

Horan agreed that the administration would benefit from some fresh faces but said it wasn’t fair to blame them for the team’s flawed strategy and execution on the field.

“I’m not going to go out and bag the board because I reckon they’ve done a pretty good job,” Horan told The Daily Telegraph.

“The board is going to change anyway, whether this has probably forced their hand a bit more, I don’t know.

“But that’s going to be healthy because some people on the board have been there for a while and done a good job and it’s time to regenerate the board.”

 

[Gigantor]

Back in the 90s, a successful Wallabies kept rugby afloat in this country.
Pretty tough to pick themselves up from this point.

 

[Rob]

Back in the 90s, a successful Wallabies kept rugby afloat in this country.
Pretty tough to pick themselves up from this point.

Hard to see what they can do, short of poaching more rugby league players. It doesn't appear as though the downturn in rugby in Australia has been replicated anywhere else, so its not like anywhere else has the same problem.

I was watching one of the NRC semi finals on Saturday, I reckon there would have been lucky to be a thousand people there (and I suspect it was free entry given UWA sports park has no fences). TV ratings went unreported, so presumably no-one was watching there either. The comp must be costing the ARU a fortune.

 

[Kwality]

The code has been in trouble from the 80s when League & Aussie Rules went national - Melbourne wanted to dominate Aussie Rules & Sydney league needed Qld, Union seemed to me to be more intent on keeping the Sydney comp as top dog.

From todays The Aus:
As well as being bundled out of the World Cup by the old enemy, rugby is up against it on almost every front.

Australia’s Super Rugby teams struggle to beat Kiwi and South African sides, struggle to attract crowds, struggle to attract television ratings. You will be excused for not knowing this, but the National Rugby Championship — the competition designed to be a stepping stone between club rugby and Super Rugby, reaches its crescendo this weekend. Canberra Vikings will play the Western Force in the grand final — although I’m not sure how many fans will be watching.

This is scratching the surface of the ills of Australian rugby. And responsibility for such problems lies with the administration of the game, the executive and board of Rugby Australia.

For a start, if blame lies with Cheika then it also clearly lies with those who appointed him — and then reappointed him last year. Warned by any number of rugby experts that the Wallabies could not win the World Cup under Cheika, CEO Raelene Castle and the RA board reaffirmed him in the position 12 months ago. Their only concession was to replace a couple of members of his coaching staff and appoint Scott Johnson as director of rugby — effectively Cheika’s boss.

ut if rugby is to pull out of its death spiral and reclaim its place in the Australian sporting landscape, a complete clean-out of the board is necessary.

Radical change is the only real alternative. And here’s a radical suggestion that just might work: Rugby Australia’s most vocal critic in recent months has been former Wallabies coach Alan Jones. On radio, TV and in his provocative rugby column every Friday in The Australian, Jones has detailed what is wrong in the game and what is required to fix it. Rather than have him outside the tent raining hell down on them, Rugby Australia should invite him inside. Get him on to the board and get him involved in sorting out the crisis. It could be just the rocket Australian rugby needs.


But if rugby is to pull out of its death spiral and reclaim its place in the Australian sporting landscape, a complete clean-out of the board is necessary.

Radical change is the only real alternative. And here’s a radical suggestion that just might work: Rugby Australia’s most vocal critic in recent months has been former Wallabies coach Alan Jones. On radio, TV and in his provocative rugby column every Friday in The Australian, Jones has detailed what is wrong in the game and what is required to fix it. Rather than have him outside the tent raining hell down on them, Rugby Australia should invite him inside. Get him on to the board and get him involved in sorting out the crisis. It could be just the rocket Australian rugby needs.


I'd add Twiggy Forrest as one to be involved.

 

[Gigantor]

The code has been in trouble from the 80s when League & Aussie Rules went national - Melbourne wanted to dominate Aussie Rules & Sydney league needed Qld, Union seemed to me to be more intent on keeping the Sydney comp as top dog.

This is an important point. I'll often hear about the AFL being too Melb centric and the NRL being too Sydney centric, but these people don't realise that this is much more of a benefit than an ill.

Rugby is not king in any major city, nor soccer for that matter, and they both suffer considerably for that.

In fact, if, for example, Rugby had been dominant in Australia's 3rd largest city, they'd have a stronger base to build something than they have now (and there may have been a time when this was a possibility).

 

[manicmagpie]

Imagine being in a position where bringing in Alan Jones to save you is a serious option. Jesus.

 

[Kwality]

Imagine being in a position where bringing in Alan Jones to save you is a serious option. Jesus.

You know his history in the game?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

There'll always be a talent base given NZ/SA/Pacific immigration, the existing private school structure, and that there's still plenty of Australians using Union as an opportunity to live overseas in a professional or semi-professional capacity. But a base and strength is going to disappear

 

[manicmagpie]

You know his history in the game?

Yep. I also know his history as a person.

 

[Billy ray]

Maybe people aren’t watching union because yknow its a terrible sport and not entertaining at all. And the small base of supporters (real live and breathe it supporters) is dwindling and the rest of us have too many alternatives in the entertainment sphere we can easily watch and do.

 

[Kwality]

Yep. I also know his history as a person.

Seems there are lots of people who disagree with you, how many ratings wins in the biggest market in the land ... sure you simply dont like his opinions. You can disagree with those opinions yet accept that he is part of the solution for Rugby.

 

[NoobPie]

Seems there are lots of people who disagree with you, how many ratings wins in the biggest market in the land ... sure you simply dont like his opinions. You can disagree with those opinions yet accept that he is part of the solution for Rugby.

Apologies in advance as I find it very hard to follow your point sometimes.....but are you putting up a shock jock's radio ratings as evidence of someone's fitness for actual real strategic decision making responsibilities?

 

[Kwality]

Apologies in advance as I find it very hard to follow your point sometimes.....but are you putting up a shock jock's radio ratings as evidence of someone's fitness for actual real strategic decision making responsibilities?

No I'm pointing out lots of people listen to Jones & that suggests to me that plenty of people respect his opinion no matter what you might think of that opinion.
His credentials in the game in question are there for all to see, IF they want.
That his name was suggested is no surprise to me.

For reference: Yep. I also know his history as a person.

 

[BobbyMorri]

Maybe people aren’t watching union because yknow its a terrible sport and not entertaining at all. And the small base of supporters (real live and breathe it supporters) is dwindling and the rest of us have too many alternatives in the entertainment sphere we can easily watch and do.

That doesn't make any sense considering Rugby Union size overseas. Heck, it is the most unusual sport in terms of demographics around the world. Not huge in all commonwealth countries(not like cricket is), but has bases of support in France, Argentina, Ireland and now Japan. That is discounting 7's.

My theory is that it has always been an upper-class sport. In Australia, where class is not a huge thing; it struggled against the working man's sport of Rugby League and AR to begin with. And unlike NZ, we prided ourselves on cricket not rugby union. But the private schools were loyal and rugby was the number 1 sport there. Then, there was a golden generation in the 90's, we hosted the world cup in 2003, the sport went pro and so Rugby boomed. It is now struggling to find its home again in this professional era of the game where more sports are being played at its home, the private schools.

 

[Billy ray]

interesting stuff. you are probably right re its place in Oz. I never grew up with it (living in perth), never watched it when the occasional wallaby game was on tv, dont even know if it was on live or delayed or late at night, cant recall. i wonder if others outside of sydney's upper crust were the same as me?

p.s. i was overseas in 2003 for many months and missed the world cup completely

 

[Kwality]

That doesn't make any sense considering Rugby Union size overseas. Heck, it is the most unusual sport in terms of demographics around the world. Not huge in all commonwealth countries(not like cricket is), but has bases of support in France, Argentina, Ireland and now Japan. That is discounting 7's.

My theory is that it has always been an upper-class sport. In Australia, where class is not a huge thing; it struggled against the working man's sport of Rugby League and AR to begin with. And unlike NZ, we prided ourselves on cricket not rugby union. Bit the private schools were loyal and rugby was the number 1 sport there. Then, there was a golden generation in the 90's, we hosted the world cup in 2003, the sport went pro and so Rugby boomed. It is now struggling to find its home again in this professional era of the game where more sports are being played in its home, the private schools.

I'm of the belief they've managed themselves into a ever smaller niche, sticking with State based ignoring their competitors who went national. Trying to keep the game amateur was a fail.
Super Rugby (going back to Super 12) has done nothing for the game here in Aus IMHO.

Losing our best players overseas further complicates the local game.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

That doesn't make any sense considering Rugby Union size overseas. Heck, it is the most unusual sport in terms of demographics around the world. Not huge in all commonwealth countries(not like cricket is), but has bases of support in France, Argentina, Ireland and now Japan. That is discounting 7's.

My theory is that it has always been an upper-class sport. In Australia, where class is not a huge thing; it struggled against the working man's sport of Rugby League and AR to begin with. And unlike NZ, we prided ourselves on cricket not rugby union. Bit the private schools were loyal and rugby was the number 1 sport there. Then, there was a golden generation in the 90's, we hosted the world cup in 2003, the sport went pro and so Rugby boomed. It is now struggling to find its home again in this professional era of the game where more sports are being played in its home, the private schools.

yep

even in vic, rugby used to have decent support in Melbourne (thanks to the private school base) and you would get decent turnouts when the wallabies played here

remember for years they were pushing for a Melbourne side, and it was always sidelined. Then the NRL brought in the Storm... I still know kiwi ex pats who are hard core rugby freaks that go to more storm games than rebels, simply because there is no feeling or connection with the club

 

[The_Wookie]

I'm of the belief they've managed themselves into a never smaller niche, sticking with State based ignoring their competitors who went national. Trying to keep the game amateur was a fail.
Super Rugby (going back to Super 12) has done nothing for the game here in Aus IMHO.

the ARU chased short term gains and in returns they've effectively killed the game as a professional force in Australia, which has subsequently done nothing for the grassroots or anything else.

First playing half your games overseas in a 16 game season means you clubs are barely visible locally for people to attend.
Second, Playing them in South Africa and Argentina means your games arent being shown in Australian tv viewing hours at a decent time, so even people at home lose touch.
Third, actively reducing the number of teams in Australia to appease the South Africans and Kiwis was stupid.

 

[Colonial]

the ARU chased short term gains and in returns they've effectively killed the game as a professional force in Australia, which has subsequently done nothing for the grassroots or anything else.

First playing half your games overseas in a 16 game season means you clubs are barely visible locally for people to attend.
Second, Playing them in South Africa and Argentina means your games arent being shown in Australian tv viewing hours at a decent time, so even people at home lose touch.
Third, actively reducing the number of teams in Australia to appease the South Africans and Kiwis was stupid.

Spend the shitload of money they had when they were powerful at the end of the 90's and while hosting the World Cup on supposed League stars to come across instead of investing in grassroots was what started that downfall.

 

[NoobPie]

No I'm pointing out lots of people listen to Jones & that suggests to me that plenty of people respect his opinion no matter what you might think of that opinion.
His credentials in the game in question are there for all to see, IF they want.
That his name was suggested is no surprise to me.

For reference: Yep. I also know his history as a person.

Plenty of people listen to shock jocks. There are lots of racists and misogynists who are up for listening to a powerful man spout their prejudices back at them and bully the powerless from groups they hate. It's the business model

Only an idiot would think that a shock jock having lots of listeners would somehow make them a credible candidate for real decision making responsibility

I would go as far to say that any power Alan Jones wields within rugby union is essentially a downward drag on the sports viability. As someone who would like the sport to bounce back in this country, god forbid that abomination of a creature is ever given direct administrative power in the game

 

[threenewpadlocks]

When you step back and see how over less than one generation to see how far it's fallen from the 1997-2003 period where it was incredibly popular, it's kind of strange. In 1997 and 1998 90,000 and 75,000 went to Wallabies games in consecutive years at the MCG, and obviously the success and goodwill of the 2003 World Cup didn't last anywhere near where it should. Wallabies players were household names, and for example, you could flick on a TV and a Weetbix ad would just be full of Wallabies players.

In Melbourne, the staying power of the Storm clearly would have had an impact, as would nationally, the national attention given to the Socceroos as a team after qualifying for the World Cup and the A-Leauge's successful launch, even though it's been on a downhill since then, clearly had some factor, as well as the Super Rugby strategic decisions made since then as outlined above.

 

[BobbyMorri]

When you step back and see how over less than one generation to see how far it's fallen from the 1997-2003 period where it was incredibly popular, it's kind of strange. In 1997 and 1998 90,000 and 75,000 went to Wallabies games in consecutive years at the MCG, and obviously the success and goodwill of the 2003 World Cup didn't last anywhere near where it should. Wallabies players were household names, and for example, you could flick on a TV and a Weetbix ad would just be full of Wallabies players.

In Melbourne, the staying power of the Storm clearly would have had an impact, as would nationally, the national attention given to the Socceroos as a team after qualifying for the World Cup and the A-Leauge's successful launch, even though it's been on a downhill since then, clearly had some factor, as well as the Super Rugby strategic decisions made since then as outlined above.

Our dominance in cricket would not have helped either. The Wallabies didn't get any "clear air" after 2003. In the next couple of years, we had our most successful Olympics ever in 2004, the 2005-7 ashes series and, as you state and I agree, probably the biggest factor, was the Socceroos Germany run. it is quite ironic. Soccers rise was partly due to John O'Neill, a Rugby Union administer. Rugby has always fought these sports for International viewing, as it was the one area where they had one over RL/AR. So that hurt more than anything AR/RL continued to do.

And there is no help incoming via a world cup here. 2023 will be hosted in France. we are bidding for the 2027 world cup but after the success of giving it to Japan, an emerging nation, I can see an American nation receiving it.(most likely Argentina/Uruguay)

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Spend the shitload of money they had when they were powerful at the end of the 90's and while hosting the World Cup on supposed League stars to come across instead of investing in grassroots was what started that downfall.

And now it’ll probably be the only way the Wallabies will be a force again.

 

[NoobPie]

Our dominance in cricket would not have helped either. The Wallabies didn't get any "clear air" after 2003. In the next couple of years, we had our most successful Olympics ever in 2004, the 2005-7 ashes series and, as you state and I agree, probably the biggest factor, was the Socceroos Germany run. it is quite ironic. Soccers rise was partly due to John O'Neill, a Rugby Union administer. Rugby has always fought these sports for International viewing, as it was the one area where they had one over RL/AR. So that hurt more than anything AR/RL continued to do.

Good grief!

The Australian cricket team's dominance started in the mid 90s. And it's a summer sport. The Wallabies success and popularity were at its height at the same time as the Australian cricket team

The idea that Wallabies / rugby's popularity has been more greatly impacted by another minor sports fleeting period of popularity than the major sports growing dominance is comedy hour!

Only a jingoist could think that there some competition for the attention of jingoists has hurt rugby more than the NRL's resurgence and its increasing propensity to soak rugby union's nurseries. Or that Swans often getting bigger crowds than the Wallabies (and dwarfing the Warratahs) while drawing their fans disproportionately from traditional rugby heartlands has less bearing than a sport that attracts mainstream attention for three games every 4 years.

Strong domestic leagues underpinned by real tribalism is far more sustainable growth than jingoism which is shallow and fleeting. Union clearly had a purple patch in Australia that inflated its profile for a period but it was ultimately its failure to create a strong meaningful tribal domestic competition, rather putting all its eggs in the Wallabies basket, that was its biggest downfall

 

[Gigantor]

Strong domestic leagues underpinned by real tribalism is far more sustainable growth than jingoism which is shallow and fleeting. Union clearly had a purple patch in Australia that inflated its profile for a period but it was ultimately its failure to create a strong meaningful tribal domestic competition, rather putting all its eggs in the Wallabies basket, that was its biggest downfall

In the end, Rugby lost the opportunity to build on any existing tribalism it had.
Super Rugby was a good vehicle to kick start the professional era, but in the end, having only 3 or 4 Australian teams playing teams from the other side of the world slowly killed off local interest.
I still enjoy watching the Brumbies, but I accept that Super Rugby's popularity in Australia has probably peaked (that's not necessarily an issue, rugby will survive, it's a matter of whether it can continue generating sufficient finances to survive in a healthy state).