Play Nice 2022 Non AFL Crowds/Ratings/Finance/Development thread

[Bjo187]

Be interesting if they can deliver that profit after backpaying players what they owe - and thats just under 40m.

NRL have a lower operational spend - they dont directly fund development - Auskick is far bigger than the equivelant NRL program, they have a much smaller womens program, and NRL WA/SA/Vic are much smaller in scope and cost than AFLQ, AFLNSW/ACT, AFLTas and AFLNT. NRL has much less staff in development, umpiring and other areas. Distributions to clubs are less, their distributions to the players associations are MUCH less. They have no stadium to operate and maintain - and which lost 13.2m last year and 20m the year before (according to the 2021 Annual Report).

This is the last year of the covid reductions for the broadcasting deals, and the AFL gets a 90 odd million lift in its broadcast rights next year (to 476m pa for 2023-2024).

Agree with that but hasn't this always been the case? Pre covid the AFL were still banking significantly more in annual profits than the NRL, so they must have improved somewhere, plus the nrl has a much more visible presence on tv in Melbourne and I expect all southern states in the past two years, despite the significant cost cutting at head office.

Perhaps they have streamlined their spending into getting more bang for their buck in promotion through tv, as opposed to money into grassroots in southern states which saw near zero growth pre covid anyway.

I would like to see some significant cost cutting at AFLHQ when a new CEO comes in, as it is severely over inflated at the moment and needs a bit of a broom to sweep through it.

A competition generating nearly 800 mill in revenue should be banking at least 50 mill in profits a year as a goal.

 

[RedV3x]

the nrl has a much more visible presence on tv in Melbourne and I expect all southern states in the past two years, despite the significant cost cutting at head office.

No. NRL is on the back channels in those states and quite insignificant.

A competition generating nearly 800 mill in revenue should be banking at least 50 mill in profits a year as a goal.

Saving is good insurance but saving without a goal is pointless.
The AFL spends. IMO the spending could be re-aligned but basically the AFL is spending right.
IMO the AFL should go to more of a percentage system rather than set amounts that get adjusted.
A set percentage should be spend on overseas development as a minimum but
this shouldn't deter the AFL to spend on special events (for which they've hopefully saved for)

 

[Bjo187]

No. NRL is on the back channels in those states and quite insignificant.



Saving is good insurance but saving without a goal is pointless.
The AFL spends. IMO the spending could be re-aligned but basically the AFL is spending right.
IMO the AFL should go to more of a percentage system rather than set amounts that get adjusted.
A set percentage should be spend on overseas development as a minimum but
this shouldn't deter the AFL to spend on special events (for which they've hopefully saved for)

Primetime channel 9 main channel into Melbourne during all the back part of the season, select games before that and all finals. As well as origin.

I would say on fta tv the NRL has much more of a presence into Melbourne than the AFL has into Sydney and Brisbane these days.

 

[The_Wookie]

Agree with that but hasn't this always been the case? Pre covid the AFL were still banking significantly more in annual profits than the NRL, so they must have improved somewhere, plus the nrl has a much more visible presence on tv in Melbourne and I expect all southern states in the past two years, despite the significant cost cutting at head office.

Over the last 10 years the AFL has generated over 2 billion more in Revenue than the NRL, but the NRL has made 30m more in profit.

Perhaps they have streamlined their spending into getting more bang for their buck in promotion through tv, as opposed to money into grassroots in southern states which saw near zero growth pre covid anyway.

I would like to see some significant cost cutting at AFLHQ when a new CEO comes in, as it is severely over inflated at the moment and needs a bit of a broom to sweep through it.

Without breakdowns of what the costs are, Im hesitant to say its over inflated just because it looks larger. Im my experience, cost cutting inevitably leads to cutting the wrong funds in the wrong areas, and putting pressure on areas that were underfunded in the first place.

A competition generating nearly 800 mill in revenue should be banking at least 50 mill in profits a year as a goal.

Its very specifically a non profit organisation. That said it makes predistribution profits of hundreds of millions of dollars. If it wanted to turn a 50m a year profit it could.

 

[The_Wookie]

Primetime channel 9 main channel into Melbourne during all the back part of the season, select games before that and all finals. As well as origin.

I would say on fta tv the NRL has much more of a presence into Melbourne than the AFL has into Sydney and Brisbane these days.

It wasnt on Nines main channel much at all during the back part of the season - even when the Storm were playing. The Swans and Lions had more games shown on 7s main channel than the NRL did in Melbourne all season.

 

[The_Wookie]

 

[Bjo187]

Over the last 10 years the AFL has generated over 2 billion more in Revenue than the NRL, but the NRL has made 30m more in profit.







Without breakdowns of what the costs are, Im hesitant to say its over inflated just because it looks larger. Im my experience, cost cutting inevitably leads to cutting the wrong funds in the wrong areas, and putting pressure on areas that were underfunded in the first place.



Its very specifically a non profit organisation. That said it makes predistribution profits of hundreds of millions of dollars. If it wanted to turn a 50m a year profit it could.

Thanks for those, they are some interesting statistics and some staggering numbers. Credit should be given to the AFL for generating that huge amount of revenue. I think also looking at whether or not that $2 billion dollar head start over 10 years has been spent wisely and if gains made off the $2 billion extra in the kitty (particularly in the northern states) have been anywhere near significant enough is an important question for the AFL to ask themselves. Personally I think it's a no, even when taking into account the extra costs the AFL have to absorb, a number of them through their own making (ie, gws, gc, aflw 18 clubs etc). They should be a lot further ahead than they currently are, but that's just my opinion.

With regards to games on main channels, do you have any statistics on this? I took notice of it this during the year and found even games like:

• buddy 1000 goals
• Sydney local derby v gws round 1
• Sydney's biggest regular season game against the pies round 23
• Brisbane's semi final
• Gold coasts biggest game in their existence v pies at metricon.

Were all relegated to the secondary channel by 7 into those local markets.

On the other hand, late in the season I could turn on ch9 and games were on the main channel, even those not involving storm, plus all NRL finals were on the main channel into Melbourne.

I've noticed a massive uptick in nrl coverage including 'play league' adds since the NRL renegotiated their tv rights deal a year or two ago, where as my two good mates that live on the gold coast and sydney say they barely ever see AFL on the main channel's up there and you'd have to go looking for it to even know it exists.

 

[dave10]

Be interesting if they can deliver that profit after backpaying players what they owe - and thats just under 40m.

NRL have a lower operational spend - they dont directly fund development - Auskick is far bigger than the equivelant NRL program, they have a much smaller womens program, and NRL WA/SA/Vic are much smaller in scope and cost than AFLQ, AFLNSW/ACT, AFLTas and AFLNT. NRL has much less staff in development, umpiring and other areas. Distributions to clubs are less, their distributions to the players associations are MUCH less. They have no stadium to operate and maintain - and which lost 13.2m last year and 20m the year before (according to the 2021 Annual Report).

This is the last year of the covid reductions for the broadcasting deals, and the AFL gets a 90 odd million lift in its broadcast rights next year (to 476m pa for 2023-2024).

And the AFL own a significant Stadium asset in Marvel Stadium that is worth around $600M I believe.

To your point on investment in participation, I just had coffee with a mate here in Surfers Paradise. Mates nephew goes to primary school in Broadbeach. He loves the Bombers, plays for a junior AFL club called the Broadbeach Bombers. And the real surprise, I asked him what sports the school offers… Tennis, Cricket, AFL (yes!)… I then asked, what about rugby? “No”. If that isn’t proof of the long term investment in participation and game development delivering growth and how the AFL leave Rugby for dead then I don’t know what does.

 

[The_Wookie]

And the AFL own a significant Stadium asset in Marvel Stadium that is worth around $600M I believe.

The AFL values the assett in its annual report at 138.984m - at cost - after depreciation.

However if it was for sale - in 2016 it was reported that

“The land would be worth a minimum of $900 million and could be worth as much as $1.3 billion, depending on the desired configuration a developer sees fit,” senior CBRE director Mark Wizel told the Herald Sun.

“Etihad sits on 7.5 hectares — so even at half that rate the stadium would be worth $750 million."

“To undertake just the car parking works that are there today could cost around $100 million, which is a cost saving passed straight to the developer not to mention the risk that this takes out of the project."

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-could-reap-13-million-in-sale-of-etihad-stadium/news-story/b41aa166e10848403d2dc39893410fab

 

[RedV3x]

I would say on fta tv the NRL has much more of a presence into Melbourne than the AFL has into Sydney and Brisbane these days.

Presence ?
The Brisbane Lions outdraw the Brisbane Broncos and the Swans are the biggest game in Sydney.

 

[Bjo187]

Presence ?
The Brisbane Lions outdraw the Brisbane Broncos and the Swans are the biggest game in Sydney.

Presence ?
The Brisbane Lions outdraw the Brisbane Broncos and the Swans are the biggest game in Sydney.

You must have missed the part where I was talking about fta tv.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I then asked, what about rugby? “No”. If that isn’t proof of the long term investment in participation and game development delivering growth and how the AFL leave Rugby for dead then I don’t know what does.

Rugby, or rugby league?

 

[RedV3x]

You must have missed the part where I was talking about fta tv.

No. you said "presence". You have to look at what you write and not make sloppy statements.
You put value on ratings. I put value on attendances.

 

[Bjo187]

No. you said "presence". You have to look at what you write and not make sloppy statements.
You put value on ratings. I put value on attendances.

Lol what a strange comment, I literally said:

'I would say on fta tv the NRL has much more of a presence into Melbourne than the AFL has into Sydney and Brisbane these days.'

I know you like to argue every single point, but at least you can concede you got it wrong on this one.

 

[dave10]

Rugby, or rugby league?

League and rugby..

 

[RedV3x]

Lol what a strange comment,

By you. If you meant ratings you would have said ratings but you said presence
and most people would know that the Lions outdraw the Broncos and the Swans are the biggest game in town.
Australian Football participation has increased significantly in Qld with Brisbane being a huge driver in the AFLW
and the creation of new clubs and leagues in Sydney is really moving things along.
IMO, Australian Football's presence in Brisbane and Sydney is really cemented.

 

[Bjo187]

By you. If you meant ratings you would have said ratings but you said presence
and most people would know that the Lions outdraw the Broncos and the Swans are the biggest game in town.
Australian Football participation has increased significantly in Qld with Brisbane being a huge driver in the AFLW
and the creation of new clubs and leagues in Sydney is really moving things along.
IMO, Australian Football's presence in Brisbane and Sydney is really cemented.

Let me make this clear. I was referring to Australian football presence on fta tv and it being on the main channel. Basically the NRL has more presence on the main 9 channel in Melbourne than the AFL has presence into Sydney and Brisbane on the main 7 channel up there.

It's not that difficult of a concept, I agree on participation and attendance, but you need to read the whole thread before going off on a tangent.

 

[RedV3x]

Let me make this clear.

If you meant ratings you would have said ratings but you said presence
and most people would know that the Lions outdraw the Broncos and the Swans are the biggest game in town.
Australian Football participation has increased significantly in Qld with Brisbane being a huge driver in the AFLW
and the creation of new clubs and leagues in Sydney is really moving things along.
IMO, Australian Football's presence in Brisbane and Sydney is really cemented.

 

[Bjo187]

If you meant ratings you would have said ratings but you said presence
and most people would know that the Lions outdraw the Broncos and the Swans are the biggest game in town.
Australian Football participation has increased significantly in Qld with Brisbane being a huge driver in the AFLW
and the creation of new clubs and leagues in Sydney is really moving things along.
IMO, Australian Football's presence in Brisbane and Sydney is really cemented.

I feel like you've gotta be on the wind up. I wasn't talking about tv ratings, participation, AFLW, attendance as I already agree the AFL wins in that department. I was simply talking about which sport is more visible on free to air tv in its non heartlands.

I believe the NRL has overtaken AFL in this regard in the past year, as NRL gets put on the main 9 channel into Melbourne more than the nsw and Queensland teams get put onto the 7 main channel into Sydney and Brisbane. It's pretty simple really, hopefully it sinks in eventually.

Not sure if the wookie has stats on this, but I'd be pleasantly surprised if there were more AFL games on 7's main channel in Sydney and Brisbane (despite them having double the amount of local teams than the storm), than rugby league games on the 9 'main channel' into Melbourne during 2022. That's what I mean by fta tv presence, being on the 'main channel' so that people actually see your product and can't avoid knowing it exists.

 

[RedV3x]

I believe the NRL has overtaken AFL in this regard in the past year,

I think you are very confused and always looking to pump up NRL on any small point
Look at the elephant in the room.
The Lions outdraw the Broncos now and have in past as well and the Swans are the biggest game in town and have been for a long time.
Australian Football participation has increased significantly in Qld with Brisbane being a huge driver in the AFLW
and the creation of new clubs and leagues in Sydney is really moving things along.
IMO, Australian Football's presence in Brisbane and Sydney is really cemented.
Good onfield performances will strengthen the expansion teams' position.
That is difficult with an 18 team competition and why nobody is rushing into a 20 team competition.
The NRL has overtaken anything. It might have a good statistic in your opinion and that is what keeps NRL in business -good ratings,
but the apparently good ratings for NRL hasn't translated into bums on seats.
People watch the S.O.O. because it's an event and people like watching events - Melbourne Cup, F1, tennis, golf, international cricket etc.
IMO, people have wholely under-estimated the power of the AFLW in keeping Australian Football and AFL clubs in the news.
What are the cumulative ratings for AFLW?

Not sure if the wookie has stats on this,

Of course he has and has been displaying them throughout the season.
You should have quoted them with your "feelings".

 

[The_Wookie]

Not sure if the wookie has stats on this, but I'd be pleasantly surprised if there were more AFL games on 7's main channel in Sydney and Brisbane (despite them having double the amount of local teams than the storm), than rugby league games on the 9 'main channel' into Melbourne during 2022.

The Storm had 4 games on FTa in Melbourne on Nines main channel during the season. And were eliminated in week 1 of the finals.

The Lions had 6 games on FTA during the season on Sevens main channel, and I believe the Week 1 and 3 Finals were shown on the main 7 outlet.
THE Swans had 5 game and their Week 1 and 3 Finals on 7 main outlet.

All NRL season matches on FTA in Melbourne averaged 14,000, the Finals averaged 71,000
All AFL season matches on FTA in Brisbane averaged 28,000 and the Finals averaged 82,000
All AFL season matches on FTA in Sydney averaged 28,000 and 106,000 in the Finals

 

[The_Wookie]

What are the cumulative ratings for AFLW?

No real way of quantifying this without a press release from the AFL. Ratings are frequently not making it onto the public top 20 lists on FTA and Fox.

 

[Bjo187]

The Storm had 4 games on FTa in Melbourne on Nines main channel during the season. And were eliminated in week 1 of the finals.

The Lions had 6 games on FTA during the season on Sevens main channel, and I believe the Week 1 and 3 Finals were shown on the main 7 outlet.
THE Swans had 5 game and their Week 1 and 3 Finals on 7 main outlet.

All NRL season matches on FTA in Melbourne averaged 14,000, the Finals averaged 71,000
All AFL season matches on FTA in Brisbane averaged 28,000 and the Finals averaged 82,000
All AFL season matches on FTA in Sydney averaged 28,000 and 106,000 in the Finals

Thanks for that wookie, that is better than I thought, assuming you are talking regular season games and not including finals in that, as Sydney and Brisbane both played in 3 finals each compared to storms 1.

Also there were a number of non storm games on the 9 main channel into Melbourne that are not included there, I don't know if any non Sydney or Brisbane games get on 7 main in the northern states?

Also any stats on how many gold coast and gws games were on 7 main?

This whole discussion I think can be determine by:
- Stats on total AFL games on 7 main into Sydney for the season, including finals?

- Stats on total rugby league games (including origin) that were broadcast into Melbourne on 9 main for the season, including finals?

Not sure if you have those details. The AFL should technically be 50 percent more given they have double the amount of teams in those markets, but I'm thinking it's pretty much the same or rugby league in front from what I saw this year.

 

[The_Wookie]

Thanks for that wookie, that is better than I thought, assuming you are talking regular season games and not including finals in that, as Sydney and Brisbane both played in 3 finals each compared to storms 1.

Also there were a number of non storm games on the 9 main channel into Melbourne that are not included there, I don't know if any non Sydney or Brisbane games get on 7 main in the northern states?

Also any stats on how many gold coast and gws games were on 7 main?

This whole discussion I think can be determine by:
- Stats on total AFL games on 7 main into Sydney for the season, including finals?

- Stats on total rugby league games (including origin) that were broadcast into Melbourne on 9 main for the season, including finals?

Your premise is faulty. Using only main channel data is highly inapropriate given that more than 100 matches are shown for each code in each city over a season - 95% on secondary channels.

The data i provided in the post has all rugby league season and finals averages provided.

The total figures overwhelmingly go the AFLs way in Sydney and Brisbane. More than 4.2 million viewers watched the AFL home and away season in Sydney and Brisbane - abaout 2.1m each. The viewership in Melbourne was just over a million.

Total Finals viewing was 640,000 for the NRL in Melbourne. Rep viewing was 719,0000.
Total Finals viewing was 957,000 for the AFL in Sydney and 756,000 in Brisbane.

Total viewers across the AFL was more than 3m in Sydney, and almost 2.9m in Brisbane.
Total viewers across the NRL was 2.5m in Melbourne inclusive of Origin and Rep fixtures.

I'm thinking it's pretty much the same or rugby league in front from what I saw this year.

You thought wrong.

 

[Bjo187]

Your premise is faulty. Using only main channel data is highly inapropriate given that more than 100 matches are shown for each code in each city over a season - 95% on secondary channels.

The data i provided in the post has all rugby league season and finals averages provided.

The total figures overwhelmingly go the AFLs way in Sydney and Brisbane. More than 4.2 million viewers watched the AFL home and away season in Sydney and Brisbane - abaout 2.1m each. The viewership in Melbourne was just over a million.

Total Finals viewing was 640,000 for the NRL in Melbourne. Rep viewing was 719,0000.
Total Finals viewing was 957,000 for the AFL in Sydney and 756,000 in Brisbane.

Total viewers across the AFL was more than 3m in Sydney, and almost 2.9m in Brisbane.
Total viewers across the NRL was 2.5m in Melbourne inclusive of Origin and Rep fixtures.



You thought wrong.

You are completely missing my point. It was all about main channel exposure, not ratings, attendance, whatever. It's the equivalent of your sport being on the back page of the paper, compared to 10 pages into the sports section, where only diehards will turn to seek it out.

The AFL is already bigger than NRL in it's non heartland areas, that isn't up for discussion. What is up for discussion, is the importance of main channel exposure for bringing in a new audience and new eyeballs to your sport.

Only already rusted on fans will flick over to a secondary channel, but on the main channel it gets main channel advertising of your product (think nrl games being advertised during the block or married at first site) and everybody flicking that channel on in primetime to see what's on 'oh rugby league, might watch a bit of this it must be an important game it's on 9'. There is a reason games on the main channel rate at least over double what they do on the secondary channels.

It's about product awareness, which I don't think you can put a value on. It's why people in W.Sydney and the gold coast have zero idea or care about the suns and giants. You have to actively seek it out to find it, something a potential new fan couldn't be bothered doing, as it mustn't be important.

So yes the AFL rates higher and that's good, but the NRL have done well being more in the face of non league fans in Melbourne over the past year, than the AFL have done by allowing their product to be stuck on secondary channels. It's actually gone backwards since 10 had the rights back in the early 2000s, the AFL made huge gains in those periods due to main channel exposure. Anybody that doesn't think main channel brand exposure is important, especially for teams that are trying to grow a new supporter base (gc and gws) must have rocks in their heads.