VFL 2023 - Reserves Game Day discussion Rnds 1 - 22 (Merged threads)

[HarryFlashman]

For those who didn’t see the game FYI it was wet weather footy. Dow had 17 kicks, most under pressure & clearing it long as possible- most 40m+ (ie wet weather footy), no cheapies running around the back - under no pressure to a clearly open team mate.
To believe he had 15 kicks & none to advantage of a team mate (as reported by some) is very a “selective” representation of what happened. Fish missing or laying ineffective tackles at least 5+ times, chasing cheapies & giving less than no defensive pressure at times was also conveniently not mentioned.
By all means Dow didn’t have a great game, to report he had the worst disposal by foot ever (15 kicks all ineffective) may possibly indicate some negative bias.

 

[Arr0w]

For those who didn’t see the game FYI it was wet weather footy. Dow had 17 kicks, most under pressure & clearing it long as possible- most 40m+ (ie wet weather footy), no cheapies running around the back - under no pressure to a clearly open team mate.
To believe he had 15 kicks & none to advantage of a team mate (as reported by some) is very a “selective” representation of what happened. Fish missing or laying ineffective tackles at least 5+ times, chasing cheapies & giving less than no defensive pressure at times was also conveniently not mentioned.
By all means Dow didn’t have a great game, to report he had the worst disposal by foot ever (15 kicks all ineffective) may possibly indicate some negative bias.

Obviously directed at me.

Strange that you only focused on 2 players, your strong bias in favour of Dow and your extremely negative bias of Fisher, rather than commenting on my thoughts on other players

So, if you really want to this this properly...

Show me where I have stated that Dow had 15 ineffective kicks?

All I said was he didn't kick it to the advantage of teammates, which was the case

As for the conditions how was Binns and Fisher able to hit shorter targets multiple times, but Dow could only do it once?

 

[HarryFlashman]

Stolen from twitter

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Caught a reply of the game this morning

Akuei, was reasonable when the ball hit the ground, laid somes strong tackles. Marking contests, still struggles to read the ball in flight. At this stage won't make it as a defender, 3rd tall forward is his best option

Lemmey was poor, not in providing an option or wanting to compete, but needs to improve his intent

Fisher still lacks penetration by foot, but was largely cleaner than any of our players, provided outlet options and overlap run.

Fog & Plow, serviceable VFL options

Boyd, really poor game, let his opponent get out the back a couple of times, spoiled back into the corridor, not enough drive from the back half

Dow was poor, hit 1 target by foot, all other kicks weren't to a teammates advantage. Also ignored/missed open targets in space and or fat side of the ground

Binns, was slightly down with his decision making, but worked hard both ways again, if he isn't trying to bite off too much by foot, is generally sound

Carroll, looked like a paddock footballer. Running like he has mental boots on, this after being managed. I would give him a spell for a couple more weeks

Mirkov, no where near it, especially away from a ruck contest

Cotts, got into some dangerous spots, kicked well, even 2 at goal. Provided good run both ways, building nicely

Owies too smart for VFL level now, 7 shots at goal, missed some gettable ones, but more about how he gets ftee in the forward half

Based on that game, and concerns with output in our current side with some players, Owies, Cotts, Fisher most likely call ups, in that order

Yep, spot on. Owies was the one player who screamed - "I'm a 1s player'.

Missed a few, but that's just rust....

Cotts OK, to be fair, good for a second game back, Binns solid, the rest meh....

Fisher ok, but didn't dominate as he should at this level. Brissy have a strong 2s team all the same.

 

[windows1]

Yep, spot on. Owies was the one player who screamed - "I'm a 1s player'.

Missed a few, but that's just rust....

Cotts OK, to be fair, good for a second game back, Binns solid, the rest meh....

Fisher ok, but didn't dominate as he should at this level. Brissy have a strong 2s team all the same.

Binns worst game of the season in my view. Was ‘ok’.

 

[Mondyboy]

For those who didn’t see the game FYI it was wet weather footy. Dow had 17 kicks, most under pressure & clearing it long as possible- most 40m+ (ie wet weather footy), no cheapies running around the back - under no pressure to a clearly open team mate.
To believe he had 15 kicks & none to advantage of a team mate (as reported by some) is very a “selective” representation of what happened. Fish missing or laying ineffective tackles at least 5+ times, chasing cheapies & giving less than no defensive pressure at times was also conveniently not mentioned.
By all means Dow didn’t have a great game, to report he had the worst disposal by foot ever (15 kicks all ineffective) may possibly indicate some negative bias.

Nah, he was handily beaten on the day and didn’t provide much drive or burst. And with Fort negating Mirkov, Dow wasn’t getting much service from the tap outs. Lyons and Mathieson were far more impressive.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[I bleed Blue]

Obviously directed at me.

Strange that you only focused on 2 players, your strong bias in favour of Dow and your extremely negative bias of Fisher, rather than commenting on my thoughts on other players

So, if you really want to this this properly...

Show me where I have stated that Dow had 15 ineffective kicks?

All I said was he didn't kick it to the advantage of teammates, which was the case

As for the conditions how was Binns and Fisher able to hit shorter targets multiple times, but Dow could only do it once?

Dow did nothing to warrant a call up.

Owies in 100%

Cottrell next one in.

No one else really impressed

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Dow did nothing to warrant a call up.

As if he'd get picked even if he did...

 

[Benga]

Obviously directed at me.

Strange that you only focused on 2 players, your strong bias in favour of Dow and your extremely negative bias of Fisher, rather than commenting on my thoughts on other players

So, if you really want to this this properly...

Show me where I have stated that Dow had 15 ineffective kicks?

All I said was he didn't kick it to the advantage of teammates, which was the case

As for the conditions how was Binns and Fisher able to hit shorter targets multiple times, but Dow could only do it once?

I haven’t watched the game, and it doesn’t sound like Dow did anything to suggest a call up.
But I would have thought the answer to this question is pretty obvious…

 

[Arr0w]

Dow did nothing to warrant a call up.

Unfortunately, I think he has too many flaws in his game, to make it at AFL level. He can will his own pill at VFL level, and that's it. Rarely is he part of a chain, doesn't use it well, won't/can't work defensively

Owies in 100%

Should come in this week

Cottrell next one in.

Could come in also

No one else really impressed

Fisher, but depends if they are happy with why he was sent back. Thought he was our best

 

[FRUMPY]

Carroll, looked like a paddock footballer. Running like he has mental boots on, this after being managed. I would give him a spell for a couple more weeks

I only watched about a qtr of the game and agree he looked very ordinary. Ive really only seen his AFL games and the odd quarter of VFL here and there and have never been impressed with him tbh. Kicking is very poor and i just dont see the love he gets on here (not directed at you, but in general). Looks a long way off it whenever i see him play.

Unless he is injured, i dont see why you would rest him though - surely he just has to work at it and work harder.

 

[Accidental genius]

As if he'd get picked even if he did...

agreed.

• he plays well for several weeks, doesnt get picked and the excuse (from some) for not getting promoted is he doesnt defend or something pretty specific (as if current senior players are 100% perfect)

• he manages and ok/good game as a one off this season and now the excuse is he played a shit game so cant be called up

coach/club might have already crossed his name off - no one here would really know for sure - but why some are so against him having a game in seniors when he deserves it is bizarre.

 

[FRUMPY]

coach/club might have already crossed his name off - no one here would really know for sure

Yeah we do

 

[Blue_Fusion]

agreed.

• he plays well for several weeks, doesnt get picked and the excuse (from some) for not getting promoted is he doesnt defend or something pretty specific (as if current senior players are 100% perfect)

• he manages and ok/good game as a one off this season and now the excuse is he played a s**t game so cant be called up

coach/club might have already crossed his name off - no one here would really know for sure - but why some are so against him having a game in seniors when he deserves it is bizarre.

Yeah it's really strange.

The same people who criticise Dow for all his flaws were also defending Casboult to the hilt...

 

[jj1978]

Dow may not be perfect, but what's the harm in giving him another shot based on his work ethic and improvement displayed in the VFL most this season? We gave LOB how many opportunities this year? We have very sore mids in Hewett, Cripps and Walsh ATM too.

If he fails again it's not like it's going to impact his trade value, if he has some success that probably will benefit our team and may at least incur some trade value come end of season if that is the pursued course of action.

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

agreed.

• he plays well for several weeks, doesnt get picked and the excuse (from some) for not getting promoted is he doesnt defend or something pretty specific (as if current senior players are 100% perfect)

• he manages and ok/good game as a one off this season and now the excuse is he played a s**t game so cant be called up

coach/club might have already crossed his name off - no one here would really know for sure - but why some are so against him having a game in seniors when he deserves it is bizarre.

Nah, it's really not bizarre. Vossy never wanted him on our list this year. He would have been hoping that another club would have picked him up. But, that was always unlikely. The difference between AFL standard to VFL standard is immense. He is a good VFL player, shame he did not work out for us. Of course he has had his paper's stamped and rightly so imo.

 

[btdg]

Dow's situation is IMO a microcosm of the biggest issue facing our team: an overemphasis on defensiveness in the midfield.

To understand this, lets go back to round 11 last year. We began the season 8-2 but faced some skepticism from the broader world because of a lack of 'defensive running' from the mids - Cripps, Kennedy, in particular. You could see it in Voss's head a bit as he talked through press conferences even after wins...

The round 11, Dow was called up into the team after impressing in midfield. We faced a Collingwood team that were 5-5, looking frisky under a new coach who had taken the shackles off, but were generally expected to fall apart and finish bottom 4.

In that game against Collingwood we leaked some incredibly easy goals - their midfield ran us ragged, particularly in a burst in the late 3rd / early 4th quarters that saw them open up a 4 goal lead. At times their smaller forwards seemed to just run past us into open goals. Post-game, the scrutiny was on: our defence wasn't good enough, and it was clear that we would never again play such an attacking midfield.

Dow, playing his first full game for the year, had 21 touches (11 contested) and 5 tackles. Not a terrible effort, but he was the scapegoat, the clear sign of the malignant lack of defensive running that had ruined our season and taken us to a horrific 8-3 record, and the next week we implemented a more defensive style with an extra man behind the ball. We held Essendon to 54 points (the lowest score by one of our opponents all year) and won easily. The die was cast: drop numbers behind the ball, attack less, and Dow can't play alongside Cripps/Hewitt, ever.

In hindsight, that was, and is, a huge mistake. At the time, no one knew it but that was a new style of play for Collingwood that would win them 10 straight, lead them to the top 4, and have them top of the ladder 12 months later. They ran past everyone... in fact, our attacking style held up better than almost anyone against them in that run, and still did. Since that match, we have scored 100 points only against West Coast and North (in the 10 games prior we did so against 6 opponents, 3 of whom played finals last year). We are 8-1-10 since and fell away to miss finals, and have only one win against a finals opponent.

 

[Accidental genius]

Dow's situation is IMO a microcosm of the biggest issue facing our team: an overemphasis on defensiveness in the midfield.

To understand this, lets go back to round 11 last year. We began the season 8-2 but faced some skepticism from the broader world because of a lack of 'defensive running' from the mids - Cripps, Kennedy, in particular. You could see it in Voss's head a bit as he talked through press conferences even after wins...

The round 11, Dow was called up into the team after impressing in midfield. We faced a Collingwood team that were 5-5, looking frisky under a new coach who had taken the shackles off, but were generally expected to fall apart and finish bottom 4.

In that game against Collingwood we leaked some incredibly easy goals - their midfield ran us ragged, particularly in a burst in the late 3rd / early 4th quarters that saw them open up a 4 goal lead. At times their smaller forwards seemed to just run past us into open goals. Post-game, the scrutiny was on: our defence wasn't good enough, and it was clear that we would never again play such an attacking midfield.

Dow, playing his first full game for the year, had 21 touches (11 contested) and 5 tackles. Not a terrible effort, but he was the scapegoat, the clear sign of the malignant lack of defensive running that had ruined our season and taken us to a horrific 8-3 record, and the next week we implemented a more defensive style with an extra man behind the ball. We held Essendon to 54 points (the lowest score by one of our opponents all year) and won easily. The die was cast: drop numbers behind the ball, attack less, and Dow can't play alongside Cripps/Hewitt, ever.

In hindsight, that was, and is, a huge mistake. At the time, no one knew it but that was a new style of play for Collingwood that would win them 10 straight, lead them to the top 4, and have them top of the ladder 12 months later. They ran past everyone... in fact, our attacking style held up better than almost anyone against them in that run, and still did. Since that match, we have scored 100 points only against West Coast and North (in the 10 games prior we did so against 6 opponents, 3 of whom played finals last year). We are 8-1-10 since and fell away to miss finals, and have only one win against a finals opponent.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Dow's situation is IMO a microcosm of the biggest issue facing our team: an overemphasis on defensiveness in the midfield.

To understand this, lets go back to round 11 last year. We began the season 8-2 but faced some skepticism from the broader world because of a lack of 'defensive running' from the mids - Cripps, Kennedy, in particular. You could see it in Voss's head a bit as he talked through press conferences even after wins...

The round 11, Dow was called up into the team after impressing in midfield. We faced a Collingwood team that were 5-5, looking frisky under a new coach who had taken the shackles off, but were generally expected to fall apart and finish bottom 4.

In that game against Collingwood we leaked some incredibly easy goals - their midfield ran us ragged, particularly in a burst in the late 3rd / early 4th quarters that saw them open up a 4 goal lead. At times their smaller forwards seemed to just run past us into open goals. Post-game, the scrutiny was on: our defence wasn't good enough, and it was clear that we would never again play such an attacking midfield.

Dow, playing his first full game for the year, had 21 touches (11 contested) and 5 tackles. Not a terrible effort, but he was the scapegoat, the clear sign of the malignant lack of defensive running that had ruined our season and taken us to a horrific 8-3 record, and the next week we implemented a more defensive style with an extra man behind the ball. We held Essendon to 54 points (the lowest score by one of our opponents all year) and won easily. The die was cast: drop numbers behind the ball, attack less, and Dow can't play alongside Cripps/Hewitt, ever.

In hindsight, that was, and is, a huge mistake. At the time, no one knew it but that was a new style of play for Collingwood that would win them 10 straight, lead them to the top 4, and have them top of the ladder 12 months later. They ran past everyone... in fact, our attacking style held up better than almost anyone against them in that run, and still did. Since that match, we have scored 100 points only against West Coast and North (in the 10 games prior we did so against 6 opponents, 3 of whom played finals last year). We are 8-1-10 since and fell away to miss finals, and have only one win against a finals opponent.

Absolutely nailed it.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Bletch]

Dow's situation is IMO a microcosm of the biggest issue facing our team: an overemphasis on defensiveness in the midfield.

To understand this, lets go back to round 11 last year. We began the season 8-2 but faced some skepticism from the broader world because of a lack of 'defensive running' from the mids - Cripps, Kennedy, in particular. You could see it in Voss's head a bit as he talked through press conferences even after wins...

The round 11, Dow was called up into the team after impressing in midfield. We faced a Collingwood team that were 5-5, looking frisky under a new coach who had taken the shackles off, but were generally expected to fall apart and finish bottom 4.

In that game against Collingwood we leaked some incredibly easy goals - their midfield ran us ragged, particularly in a burst in the late 3rd / early 4th quarters that saw them open up a 4 goal lead. At times their smaller forwards seemed to just run past us into open goals. Post-game, the scrutiny was on: our defence wasn't good enough, and it was clear that we would never again play such an attacking midfield.

Dow, playing his first full game for the year, had 21 touches (11 contested) and 5 tackles. Not a terrible effort, but he was the scapegoat, the clear sign of the malignant lack of defensive running that had ruined our season and taken us to a horrific 8-3 record, and the next week we implemented a more defensive style with an extra man behind the ball. We held Essendon to 54 points (the lowest score by one of our opponents all year) and won easily. The die was cast: drop numbers behind the ball, attack less, and Dow can't play alongside Cripps/Hewitt, ever.

In hindsight, that was, and is, a huge mistake. At the time, no one knew it but that was a new style of play for Collingwood that would win them 10 straight, lead them to the top 4, and have them top of the ladder 12 months later. They ran past everyone... in fact, our attacking style held up better than almost anyone against them in that run, and still did. Since that match, we have scored 100 points only against West Coast and North (in the 10 games prior we did so against 6 opponents, 3 of whom played finals last year). We are 8-1-10 since and fell away to miss finals, and have only one win against a finals opponent.

Well... that was also the match that Weitering was injured in, fairly early, that more than anything was the determining factor in the result. Kennedy was out injured, and Dow took his spot. Kennedy came back the next week, and Dow went out for him. Not sure that you could say he was the 'scapegoat' in those circumstances. And our defensive system certainly changed to cater for the lack of Weitering. We had a very tough draw in the back half of last season, compounded by a long injury list. Why we're still playing that slow game now however, is another story.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Dow's situation is IMO a microcosm of the biggest issue facing our team: an overemphasis on defensiveness in the midfield.

To understand this, lets go back to round 11 last year. We began the season 8-2 but faced some skepticism from the broader world because of a lack of 'defensive running' from the mids - Cripps, Kennedy, in particular. You could see it in Voss's head a bit as he talked through press conferences even after wins...

The round 11, Dow was called up into the team after impressing in midfield. We faced a Collingwood team that were 5-5, looking frisky under a new coach who had taken the shackles off, but were generally expected to fall apart and finish bottom 4.

In that game against Collingwood we leaked some incredibly easy goals - their midfield ran us ragged, particularly in a burst in the late 3rd / early 4th quarters that saw them open up a 4 goal lead. At times their smaller forwards seemed to just run past us into open goals. Post-game, the scrutiny was on: our defence wasn't good enough, and it was clear that we would never again play such an attacking midfield.

Dow, playing his first full game for the year, had 21 touches (11 contested) and 5 tackles. Not a terrible effort, but he was the scapegoat, the clear sign of the malignant lack of defensive running that had ruined our season and taken us to a horrific 8-3 record, and the next week we implemented a more defensive style with an extra man behind the ball. We held Essendon to 54 points (the lowest score by one of our opponents all year) and won easily. The die was cast: drop numbers behind the ball, attack less, and Dow can't play alongside Cripps/Hewitt, ever.

In hindsight, that was, and is, a huge mistake. At the time, no one knew it but that was a new style of play for Collingwood that would win them 10 straight, lead them to the top 4, and have them top of the ladder 12 months later. They ran past everyone... in fact, our attacking style held up better than almost anyone against them in that run, and still did. Since that match, we have scored 100 points only against West Coast and North (in the 10 games prior we did so against 6 opponents, 3 of whom played finals last year). We are 8-1-10 since and fell away to miss finals, and have only one win against a finals opponent.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Dow's situation is IMO a microcosm of the biggest issue facing our team: an overemphasis on defensiveness in the midfield.

To understand this, lets go back to round 11 last year. We began the season 8-2 but faced some skepticism from the broader world because of a lack of 'defensive running' from the mids - Cripps, Kennedy, in particular. You could see it in Voss's head a bit as he talked through press conferences even after wins...

The round 11, Dow was called up into the team after impressing in midfield. We faced a Collingwood team that were 5-5, looking frisky under a new coach who had taken the shackles off, but were generally expected to fall apart and finish bottom 4.

In that game against Collingwood we leaked some incredibly easy goals - their midfield ran us ragged, particularly in a burst in the late 3rd / early 4th quarters that saw them open up a 4 goal lead. At times their smaller forwards seemed to just run past us into open goals. Post-game, the scrutiny was on: our defence wasn't good enough, and it was clear that we would never again play such an attacking midfield.

Dow, playing his first full game for the year, had 21 touches (11 contested) and 5 tackles. Not a terrible effort, but he was the scapegoat, the clear sign of the malignant lack of defensive running that had ruined our season and taken us to a horrific 8-3 record, and the next week we implemented a more defensive style with an extra man behind the ball. We held Essendon to 54 points (the lowest score by one of our opponents all year) and won easily. The die was cast: drop numbers behind the ball, attack less, and Dow can't play alongside Cripps/Hewitt, ever.

In hindsight, that was, and is, a huge mistake. At the time, no one knew it but that was a new style of play for Collingwood that would win them 10 straight, lead them to the top 4, and have them top of the ladder 12 months later. They ran past everyone... in fact, our attacking style held up better than almost anyone against them in that run, and still did. Since that match, we have scored 100 points only against West Coast and North (in the 10 games prior we did so against 6 opponents, 3 of whom played finals last year). We are 8-1-10 since and fell away to miss finals, and have only one win against a finals opponent.

Very unlucky to be dropped after that one game, certainly far from the worst & plenty of non preformers that day, i mentioned at the time he should have been given at least a few more games to give him a fair go…

I’ve given up on posting about Paddy this year, I’ve commented on what he certainly has improved on in a few posts on areas of his game and a few others that still needs working on, i also think that he has certainly deserved a few games this season when we have had multiple midfielders missing through injuries…

it does feel like his papers have been stamped and he won’t be given much or any chance to show us if he’s game can stand up within the seniors system…

He played some very impressive football in the back half of the 2021 season, some of his contested ball winning and offloading along with his ability threading within and throughout congestion was at times incredible…

I’ve been a fan and supporter of his from the moment he was drafted, such a shame it looks like it’s not going to work out for him, at least here anyway…

 

[JustaBattler]

Dow's situation is IMO a microcosm of the biggest issue facing our team: an overemphasis on defensiveness in the midfield.

To understand this, lets go back to round 11 last year. We began the season 8-2 but faced some skepticism from the broader world because of a lack of 'defensive running' from the mids - Cripps, Kennedy, in particular. You could see it in Voss's head a bit as he talked through press conferences even after wins...

The round 11, Dow was called up into the team after impressing in midfield. We faced a Collingwood team that were 5-5, looking frisky under a new coach who had taken the shackles off, but were generally expected to fall apart and finish bottom 4.

In that game against Collingwood we leaked some incredibly easy goals - their midfield ran us ragged, particularly in a burst in the late 3rd / early 4th quarters that saw them open up a 4 goal lead. At times their smaller forwards seemed to just run past us into open goals. Post-game, the scrutiny was on: our defence wasn't good enough, and it was clear that we would never again play such an attacking midfield.

Dow, playing his first full game for the year, had 21 touches (11 contested) and 5 tackles. Not a terrible effort, but he was the scapegoat, the clear sign of the malignant lack of defensive running that had ruined our season and taken us to a horrific 8-3 record, and the next week we implemented a more defensive style with an extra man behind the ball. We held Essendon to 54 points (the lowest score by one of our opponents all year) and won easily. The die was cast: drop numbers behind the ball, attack less, and Dow can't play alongside Cripps/Hewitt, ever.

In hindsight, that was, and is, a huge mistake. At the time, no one knew it but that was a new style of play for Collingwood that would win them 10 straight, lead them to the top 4, and have them top of the ladder 12 months later. They ran past everyone... in fact, our attacking style held up better than almost anyone against them in that run, and still did. Since that match, we have scored 100 points only against West Coast and North (in the 10 games prior we did so against 6 opponents, 3 of whom played finals last year). We are 8-1-10 since and fell away to miss finals, and have only one win against a finals opponent.

Dow wasn't responsible for the 8-2 win the game plan was. In fact- Dow was present in that loss to Collingwood. You cite his 15 touches and 5 tackles- as some sort of validation when the average disposal from the starting 5 was over 25 and Dow's tackles were the around the contest easy ones anyway.

That the game plan - meaning structure and how the ball is moved has changed too much towards defensive emphasis is not in doubt though. The open question is whether the current structure ie ball movement can be improved on adding more emphasis on run via handball at the margin and not sacrificing the defensive gains made. Scores from turnover and contested ball wins are finals numbers - scores from rebound are bottom 4.

The side is flooding back pulling opponents' defensive lines forwards- that is why we can hardly get the ball out of defensive fifty.

It won't take much to tweek to a more balanced play - because right now the defensive flooding invited far far too much pressure on the side and no easy relief.

 

[Dominator68]

Owies getting more shots on goal in one game than would take honey 6 weeks

Two shots on goal

 

[Gointocarlton]

Dow did nothing to warrant a call up.

Owies in 100%

Cottrell next one in.

No one else really impressed

I'll bet Fisher will come back in, the bloke is kissed on the ....