VFL 2023 - Reserves Game Day discussion Rnds 1 - 22 (Merged threads)

[Arr0w]

agreed.

• he plays well for several weeks, doesnt get picked and the excuse (from some) for not getting promoted is he doesnt defend or something pretty specific (as if current senior players are 100% perfect)

• he manages and ok/good game as a one off this season and now the excuse is he played a s**t game so cant be called up

coach/club might have already crossed his name off - no one here would really know for sure - but why some are so against him having a game in seniors when he deserves it is bizarre.

No, he doesn't play "well" for several weeks, the flaws are there each week, despite the number of touches

And no one is against him playing, if he can reach minimum defensive standards

Yeah it's really strange.

The same people who criticise Dow for all his flaws were also defending Casboult to the hilt...

What a bizarre comparison, especially, given they play different roles and Levi hasn't been on our list for a number of years, but still contributing to an AFL side

 

[Arr0w]

I'll bet Fisher will come back in, the bloke is kissed on a better level of overall talent

 

[WyntersGame_]

Dow wasn't responsible for the 8-2 win the game plan was. In fact- Dow was present in that loss to Collingwood. You cite his 15 touches and 5 tackles- as some sort of validation when the average disposal from the starting 5 was over 25 and Dow's tackles were the around the contest easy ones anyway.

That the game plan - meaning structure and how the ball is moved has changed too much towards defensive emphasis is not in doubt though. The open question is whether the current structure ie ball movement can be improved on adding more emphasis on run via handball at the margin and not sacrificing the defensive gains made. Scores from turnover and contested ball wins are finals numbers - scores from rebound are bottom 4.

The side is flooding back pulling opponents' defensive lines forwards- that is why we can hardly get the ball out of defensive fifty.

It won't take much to tweek to a more balanced play - because right now the defensive flooding invited far far too much pressure on the side and no easy relief.

I think you missed the point of the original post. It wasn't crediting Dow for the 8-2 start to the season. It was highlighting that Collingwoods game plan on the day and the resulting media fanfare was what led to the "Voss game plan" being shifted to a defensive structure that rarely looks to go forward from stoppages. As such Dow was no longer a player who would be thought of moving forward by Voss as his instincts are to always move the ball forward not back

This is what I believe the biggest negative has been been from the end of last season and start of this season. By having a purely defensive mindset we will struggle to score no matter the star power in the forward line or the skills of the players. Predictability is the worst thing for a team.

I don't know if Dow is the answer but something definitely needs to change or come the end of the year we will be in the same position as always, a new coach and starting all over again.

Going away from what worked at the start of last year was such a severe over correction by the coaching staff. Finding a middle ground is key

 

[HarryFlashman]

No, he doesn't play "well" for several weeks, the flaws are there each week, despite the number of touches

And no one is against him playing, if he can reach minimum defensive standards


What a bizarre comparison, especially, given they play different roles and Levi hasn't been on our list for a number of years, but still contributing to an AFL side

Can u please explain what the “minimum defensive standard is” as a measurable mark?

I might have missed it but I don’t believe I’ve ever heard Voss say this or give a clear indication of what this is. When did he say/explain this?

 

[windows1]

I'll bet Fisher will come back in, the bloke is kissed on the ....

I will bet he doesn’t.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

What a bizarre comparison, especially, given they play different roles and Levi hasn't been on our list for a number of years, but still contributing to an AFL side

Dodging the point...

Both are highly flawed players in the position/role they play. Problem for Dow is, lists contain more mids than kpps so he has more competition.

Either way, Casboult was a shit kick at goal when the main responsibility of a key forward is to kick goals. He was also an absolute brain dead decision maker and his overall execution was putrid. Oh and he was slow. The only thing he was good at was clunking a mark and providing a chop out in the ruck.

Nevertheless, his flaws were never picked on here like Dow's have been... even though Levi was costing us big time in AFL matches.. Meanwhile, it's become sacrilege to suggest Dow gets a go despite how shit some of our more highly rated inside mids have been... including our captain...

 

[heatleystandend]

I can take or leave Dow and can see his strengths and his weaknesses. But this minimal defensive standards as a justification has to be a joke.

Because there is no way his defensive standards are worse than Cripps. The number of times Cripps’ man has been BOG in the last 2-3 seasons is nothing short of a joke and rarely gets mentioned. It is an embarrassment to the club that it happens over and over but because it’s Cripps doesn’t raise an eyebrow. Cerra is the only genuinely 2 way player (Hewett tries but is so slow it doesn’t count).

Dow might or might not be up to it but if they only reason he isn’t getting a game is his defensive standards then that is hypocrisy of the highest of order.

 

[Arr0w]

Dodging the point...

Both are highly flawed players in the position/role they play. Problem for Dow is, lists contain more mids than kpps so he has more competition.

Either way, Casboult was a s**t kick at goal when the main responsibility of a key forward is to kick goals. He was also an absolute brain dead decision maker and his overall execution was putrid. Oh and he was slow. The only thing he was good at was clunking a mark and providing a chop out in the ruck.

Nevertheless, his flaws were never picked on here like Dow's have been... even though Levi was costing us big time in AFL matches.. Meanwhile, it's become sacrilege to suggest Dow gets a go despite how s**t some of our more highly rated inside mids have been... including our captain...

Again, it's a bizarre comparison. Levi hasn't been on our list for well over 12 months and has nothing to do with Dow not getting a game right now, 2023

 

[Arr0w]

Can u please explain what the “minimum defensive standard is” as a measurable mark?

I might have missed it but I don’t believe I’ve ever heard Voss say this or give a clear indication of what this is. When did he say/explain this?

Who ever stated that Voss needs to explain defensive responsibility publicly?

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Again, it's a bizarre comparison. Levi hasn't been on our list for well over 12 months and has nothing to do with Dow not getting a game right now, 2023

Who ever stated that Levi has something to do with Dow not being selected?

 

[Arr0w]

Who ever stated that Levi has something to do with Dow not being selected?

So why mention Levi in relation to Dow?

 

[M_I_G]

I can take or leave Dow and can see his strengths and his weaknesses. But this minimal defensive standards as a justification has to be a joke.

Because there is no way his defensive standards are worse that Cripps. The number of times Cripps’ man has been BOG in the last 2-3 seasons is nothing short of a joke and rarely gets mentioned. It is an embarrassment to the club that it happens over and over but because it’s Cripps doesn’t raise an eyebrow. Cerra is the only genuinely 2 way player (Hewett tries but is so slow it doesn’t count).

Dow might or might not be up to it but if they only reason he isn’t getting a game is that his defensive standards then that is hypocrisy of the highest of order.

Pretty much this.
If our strategy revolves around winning the center clearance (and we absolutely have no plan B) then we need to make sure we win it well. Dow and Cripps re both extractors, yes Crippa has more strings to his bow, but these two blokes win it in the middle.

The fact dow didnt get a sniff erly last year or this when walsh, kennedy, hewett or cripps (last year) were out suggests voss has high standards, yet we continue to see players like Honey and Ed getting games. Is there a structure in his mind that leads to ideal football and thats why? well the reality is if thats it, its not working (clearly). So you need to play with what we have.
If its not working, you absolutely need to CHANGE.
Play dow for 2 games, give him time in the guts, let cripps or kennedy rest forward at stages (remember how many goals cripps kicked early last year?) would also mean it wouldnt matter as much if H is pushing further up the ground if big body cripps or kennedy (or permanent fwd TDK) is playing fwd, say if dow has a run through 30-40% of CBAs.

FACT: cripps 0 center clearances vs brisbane in hislast 2 games (50 CBAs)
in the game dow got crucified for, for not having impact, he had 9 CBAs and had 3 center clearances.
Yeh i know we can't judge on one game, but sheesh, try something different voss.. or will you be too proud to try (given he's happy with the effort and sure he has the right midfield mix according to his presser - laughable that he and the coaches arent reviewing everything..). I don't care if its dow or not, it just seems like a worthy choice to change our look at times, but TRY SOMETHING

 

[Blue_Fusion]

So why mention Levi in relation to Dow?

Already explained.

 

[Arr0w]

Already explained.

So, just a vague comparison

 

[Blue_Fusion]

So, just a vague comparison

Not as vague as drawing a conclusion that Levi somehow correlates to Dow's spell in the two's...

 

[Arr0w]

Not as vague as drawing a conclusion that Levi somehow correlates to Dow's spell in the two's...

Again, not sure why the comparison of 2 players that play different roles, and one that hasn't been on our list for over 12 months

Apart from both players have flaws

 

[Brackets]

No, he doesn't play "well" for several weeks, the flaws are there each week, despite the number of touches

To confirm, you're saying the guy leading the VFL coaches award hasn't been playing well?

 

[Arr0w]

To confirm, you're saying the guy leading the VFL coaches award hasn't been playing well?

Saying that he is playing well, at VFL level

 

[JustaBattler]

I think you missed the point of the original post. It wasn't crediting Dow for the 8-2 start to the season. It was highlighting that Collingwoods game plan on the day and the resulting media fanfare was what led to the "Voss game plan" being shifted to a defensive structure that rarely looks to go forward from stoppages. As such Dow was no longer a player who would be thought of moving forward by Voss as his instincts are to always move the ball forward not back

This is what I believe the biggest negative has been been from the end of last season and start of this season. By having a purely defensive mindset we will struggle to score no matter the star power in the forward line or the skills of the players. Predictability is the worst thing for a team.

I don't know if Dow is the answer but something definitely needs to change or come the end of the year we will be in the same position as always, a new coach and starting all over again.

Going away from what worked at the start of last year was such a severe over correction by the coaching staff. Finding a middle ground is key

No I don't think I missed a thing if you read what I wrote in context re Dow.....

as for the rest you've just repeated what I've been saying about what needs to be looked at all year - my reference to Dow was in response to another Dow fanboy statement being irrelevant to the issues...also I dont believe for one second that media commentary influenced game plan changes - last year game plan changes were forced by massive changes to available personnel- through injury - or have you forgotten ? - this year game plan changes are more an attempt to create more scores from turnover- which has been achieved to finalist standards whilst maintaining decent defensive capability which has been largely achieved - it is still too early in the season to judge wether there has been a massive over correction which cant be fixed, wether there are now exposed player inadequacies in the forward flanks ( I think there are) or wether the overall ask on teh whole team is just too hard and therefore teh coaches need to rethink...

time will tell- not a couple of games which had their own in game variables to consider=I'm certainly not losing any sleep over losing to a red hot Brisbane playing their game for the year...although any loss is I understand a reason for people to get itchy and scratchy...

some things can be fixed during this season and some things cant be - simple as that.

 

[Wickzki]

Dow doesn't win enough of his own ball at the AFL level

Dow isn't a particularly better user of the ball than who we already have in the team. He's not someone you can extract the ball out to and damage the opposition.

Dow's level of defensive effort doesn't make up for what he is lacking in the first two. In fact, it's another sore point of his game

Paddy knows the boxes he needs to tick to earn selection meritoriously he has yet to do so.

Personally, I'd love to see him get a few games. I do think he has been marked harshly but the assessment isn't inaccurate.

He's essentially at the same stage Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

34

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

was at when he started to work with Josh Fraser

Josh Fraser

Age

43

Ht

202cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

8.7

3star

HB

5.4

4star

CL

2.5

4star

HO

11.8

5star

No current season stats available

D

9.4

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

2.8

3star

HO

8.6

5star

and turned his career around. He needs to reinvent himself in a similar fashion

The onus is on him to transform and should be fall short he only has himself to blame. There's no participation trophies here

 

[WyntersGame_]

No I don't think I missed a thing if you read what I wrote in context re Dow.....

as for the rest you've just repeated what I've been saying about what needs to be looked at all year - my reference to Dow was in response to another Dow fanboy statement being irrelevant to the issues..

I don't think you read what I wrote correctly, but maybe I didn't write it down in the easiest way to read. We are in agreeance in game plan, easy enough to write without self congratulation, but it appears you missed the point on what the "Dow fan boy" had written. Ignore the point it is Dow and imagine its another player, say Kennedy for this hypothetical example.

"KENNEDY" situation is IMO a microcosm of the biggest issue facing our team: an overemphasis on defensiveness in the midfield.

In that game against Collingwood we leaked some incredibly easy goals - their midfield ran us ragged, particularly in a burst in the late 3rd / early 4th quarters that saw them open up a 4 goal lead. At times their smaller forwards seemed to just run past us into open goals. Post-game, the scrutiny was on: our defence wasn't good enough, and it was clear that we would never again play such an attacking midfield....

..... the clear sign of the malignant lack of defensive running that had ruined our season and taken us to a horrific 8-3 record, and the next week we implemented a more defensive style with an extra man behind the ball. We held Essendon to 54 points (the lowest score by one of our opponents all year) and won easily. The die was cast: drop numbers behind the ball, attack less, and "Kennedy" can't play alongside Cripps/Hewitt, ever.

Replacing Dow with Kennedys name, those quotes indicate to me that the poster is trying to highlight our defense not being good enough due to an attacking midfielders instincts or at least that's the coaches state of mind and that we need to be more defensive in nature which has resulted in the over correction of the game plan. Also while we have two other players in Cripps/Hewitt who have limited defensive two way running, the defensive game plan will not allow for an attacking midfielder to be apart of the midfield.

I just want to highlight I would love for Dow to prove everyone wrong, like id love for any Carlton play to do this, but i'd just as happily see him playing for another team. Also just in case you think I want Dow to replace Kennedy, i dont, i think Kennedy offers alot more than Dow, particularly forward of the centre.

We need to sort out our game style and maybe this means bringing in different players to see if that assists in tweaks we need, especially if players appear to be out form in the ones.

The side is flooding back pulling opponents' defensive lines forwards- that is why we can hardly get the ball out of defensive fifty.

This may be true but we are also no playing with a attack mentality. Its been coached into the players that defense is our game plan which means natural instinctive forward play has been strangled. I truly believe Daicos wouldn't be the player he is in his second year if he played for Carlton in our game plan

Voss doesn't fill me with confidence on his open mindness when changing his way of playing or players. I want him to succeed and if that is to happen something needs to change

 

[HarryFlashman]

Dow doesn't win enough of his own ball at the AFL level

Dow isn't a particularly better user of the ball than who we already have in the team. He's not someone you can extract the ball out to and damage the opposition.

Dow's level of defensive effort doesn't make up for what he is lacking in the first two. In fact, it's another sore point of his game

Paddy knows the boxes he needs to tick to earn selection meritoriously he has yet to do so.

Personally, I'd love to see him get a few games. I do think he has been marked harshly but the assessment isn't inaccurate.

He's essentially at the same stage Liam Jones was at when he started to work with Josh Fraser and turned his career around. He needs to reinvent himself in a similar fashion

The onus is on him to transform and should be fall short he only has himself to blame. There's no participation trophies here

Reinvent himself? As what exactly when he’s played in the middle each week? He has transformed his game but u would never know when he has been given 2 games (& player out of position) in the last 2 seasons.
No one including Dow knows what he needs to do to get a game, Voss is sticking to his system that doesn’t include utilizing his attributes

 

[HarryFlashman]

Who ever stated that Voss needs to explain defensive responsibility publicly?

So what’s minimum defensive standard? It’s the catch cry of those saying Dow isn’t good enough (& one of your most repeated sentiments) - when was it stated?
Please don’t tell me it was something BF made up & have just stuck with as it’s impossible to gauge & can be applied at will (any mistake proves the point) but sounds knowledgeable (or even a bit of inside knowledge) as an argument

 

[Arr0w]

So what’s minimum defensive standard? It’s the catch cry of those saying Dow isn’t good enough (& one of your most repeated sentiments) - when was it stated?
Please don’t tell me it was something BF made up & have just stuck with as it’s impossible to gauge & can be applied at will (any mistake proves the point) but sounds knowledgeable (or even a bit of inside knowledge) as an argument

Not sure why you are clinging to one aspect of his game, nor does it need to be stated, to be seen

You don't ask anyone for the time, if you are wearing a watch

 

[HarryFlashman]

Not sure why you are clinging to one aspect of his game, nor does it need to be stated, to be seen

I don't ask anyone for the time if I am wearing a watch

So in summary, it’s something but not a thing, it’s a standard but it’s not measurable, it’s been implied but never clearly stated.
Yep, that now makes sense, funny how questions are answered when simple specific details are asked for.