List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[gringo2011]

On paper we had a good hand in the Coffield, Clark draft.
In reality it was a pretty ordinary group to select from.

2017
Raynor
Brayshaw
Dow
Davies-Uniacke
Cerra
Stephenson
Clark
Coffield
Naughton
O'Brian
Bonar
Fogarty
Brandar
Ling
Bailey
Richards
Higgins
Starcevich
Powell

Should we have refused the Hawks deal and taken Florent, Brodie, or Simpkin the year before?
Should we have packaged our 2 picks and tried to trade higher into that draft?

Yep, 100% should have drafted the year before. It was hubris when we were in hurry to get players in and develop them. Florrent and Simpkin both apparently on our radar that year. Simpkin is no star but he's a lot closer than either of our guys so far. Club captain so he's got leadership qualities too. It was in our era of having to look like we "won" trade periods because we couldn't do it on field.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Gallagher was shithouse, Lethlean was a list wrecker too.

Yeah - its staggering - htf did we make it into the finals with all these losers on board.

 

[Ricmel]

Both best 22 players.

There is your problem in a nutshell.

 

[gringo2011]

Blake Acres and Ryan Byrnes AFL Stats Comparison

Blake Acres and Ryan Byrnes AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

If you put Brad Crouch up against Bont he'd look similar in stats probably. Means FA.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Yep, 100% should have drafted the year before. It was hubris when we were in hurry to get players in and develop them. Florrent and Simpkin both apparently on our radar that year. Simpkin is no star but he's a lot closer than either of our guys so far. Club captain so he's got leadership qualities too. It was in our era of having to look like we "won" trade periods because we couldn't do it on field.

Yeah but death riding hawthorn all of 2017 is one of the few happy memories I have from the last decade.

 

[gringo2011]

There is your problem in a nutshell.

Not really. Both are off their worst seasons. They'll go to another club and be a good players. Both are middlers with upside and years left. Fans have short memories. Both struggled under Lyon but really have to consider how much the replacement cost of either will be. Trading out to get picks guarantees nothing but potential for players that might bust, be equal or be better in really rare circumstances.

Selling when they are at their lowest ebb sounds like a dangerous move.

 

[L_W_P]

Why didn’t we just stick with naughton. We were all over him

If we had drafted him he would have stayed a defender, been man handled a dozen times, delisted as being a "failure" and then picked up by Sydney.

 

[L_W_P]

So a club shifts its base to say a nowhere like Seaford. They appoint a terrible coach, bottle a decade of drafting and completely bugger up a rebuild.
They pay their players less because they're cruising around in the bottom 4 each year, and because of that anyone half decent leaves after their initial contract.
How does that club break that cycle?
That is why the minimum TPP was set so high.

But anyone half decent would be getting over paid to stay?

The salary floor is an issue for a club like North right now.

They want Simpkin, LDU and Larkey to stay through the dark times so they give them long deals on big money.

Harry Sheezel comes in and wins the BnF in his first year. So his manager says "We want 6 years at 800k"

Well now loyal soldiers like McDonald & Zurhaar are saying "Hey, we stuck with the club during the shit, when do we get paid?"

From a Saints POV we accept that our list is nowhere near as talented as GWS and yet, if we are paying the minimum and they are paying the max, there's less than $2m between us.

If we delisted our 3 cheapest players and brought in Mabior Chol, Darcy Parish & Ben McKay we would be paying the same as GWS and still be miles off in terms of talent.

How are clubs meant to fix THAT?

 

[crasha301]

But anyone half decent would be getting over paid to stay?

The salary floor is an issue for a club like North right now.

They want Simpkin, LDU and Larkey to stay through the dark times so they give them long deals on big money.

Harry Sheezel comes in and wins the BnF in his first year. So his manager says "We want 6 years at 800k"

Well now loyal soldiers like McDonald & Zurhaar are saying "Hey, we stuck with the club during the s**t, when do we get paid?"

From a Saints POV we accept that our list is nowhere near as talented as GWS and yet, if we are paying the minimum and they are paying the max, there's less than $2m between us.

If we delisted our 3 cheapest players and brought in Mabior Chol, Darcy Parish & Ben McKay we would be paying the same as GWS and still be miles off in terms of talent.

How are clubs meant to fix THAT?

It's an issue that unfortunately will never be fixed.

I've always liked the idea of bringing in a retired player as a playing development coach and pay them through the cap instead of over paying players overs.

The coach plays a handful of games in the 2s.

On CPH2145 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Yawkey way]

I think it would be poor management. Both best 22 players. Both cost first rounders and in a weak draft and still young enough to be in our next challenge, unless it's a top 8 pick in this draft it is unlikely to be a positive move. It's a fairly uninspiring draft.

I don’t mind what they’re doing with Gresham because put simply he’s driving this as a restricted free agent we’re just trying to play it smart. There’s no way he’s worth the sort of contract that will get us a first round compo pick to us and we can match if we think the compensation is insufficient. Howard may well be on the table but he’s also contracted so again I’d imagine that the club is thinking blow our socks off or jog on.

So potentially we wind up with two extra first round picks which would catapult our rebuild or we hold one or both and hope they have better years. The real risk imo is doing nothing and winding up with another decade of being a 14 - 8 team, nether really in contention and never with those top few picks that provide access to the game changers.

Good sides do it all well, draft, trade and picking over bargains. I‘ve loved our drafting the last two years, I really rate rtb and he rates the team he’s assembled so I’m backing them in this year no matter who winds up staying or going.

 

[ScrappyDo]

But anyone half decent would be getting over paid to stay?

The salary floor is an issue for a club like North right now.

They want Simpkin, LDU and Larkey to stay through the dark times so they give them long deals on big money.

Harry Sheezel comes in and wins the BnF in his first year. So his manager says "We want 6 years at 800k"

Well now loyal soldiers like McDonald & Zurhaar are saying "Hey, we stuck with the club during the s**t, when do we get paid?"

From a Saints POV we accept that our list is nowhere near as talented as GWS and yet, if we are paying the minimum and they are paying the max, there's less than $2m between us.

If we delisted our 3 cheapest players and brought in Mabior Chol, Darcy Parish & Ben McKay we would be paying the same as GWS and still be miles off in terms of talent.

How are clubs meant to fix THAT?

Why is McKay leaving then?
All in all the TPP floor isn't the problem in any regard.

Let's say there wasnt one and you had to spend exactly 100% of the cap each year.
Does that make the problem worse, or does it just reflect that your club has been poorly run but now you can't blame a 5% difference in TPP?
Sounds silly doesn't it?

 

[pebblesofsand]

If you put Brad Crouch up against Bont he'd look similar in stats probably. Means FA.

Actually - mentioning Bont or Crouch is the bit that really means FA.

I am comparing Blake Acres output in his last season with St Kilda (before he was dumped because he was a space cadet) with a current Saints player who most fans on here wouldn't give a continental about if he was traded or delisted.

But hey 5 years down the track and Acres is eventually playing well (but no better than Mason Woods) and now everyone having a sook about dumping him.

We were paying him $550K a year - would you spend that on Byrnes?

 

[Diehard Saint]

Yep, 100% should have drafted the year before. It was hubris when we were in hurry to get players in and develop them. Florrent and Simpkin both apparently on our radar that year. Simpkin is no star but he's a lot closer than either of our guys so far. Club captain so he's got leadership qualities too. It was in our era of having to look like we "won" trade periods because we couldn't do it on field.

Hindsight is a perfect science.
Pretty sure you, like most of us were rapt at the back to back picks we acquired at #7 and 8.
It was seen as a master stroke of trading at the time by everyone.

That it looks like it didn’t work out as well as it could have - no one could have foreseen that.

 

[L_W_P]

Why is McKay leaving then?
All in all the TPP floor isn't the problem in any regard.

Let's say there wasnt one and you had to spend exactly 100% of the cap each year.
Does that make the problem worse, or does it just reflect that your club has been poorly run but now you can't blame a 5% difference in TPP?
Sounds silly doesn't it?

Remove the floor.

Clubs get whatever it is, call it $15m, and spend it as they see fit.

If they spend $10m on players and $5m getting rid of debt or paying coaches then so be it.

Edit: And McKay is leaving because he's sick of losing. He's hitting the prime of his career and is still at the start of a rebuild with North.

 

[PandaG]

That would be 100% garbage. Cannot believe you think it is any way plausible.


And your source is?



Well as it did not happen, it wasn't.

But IF it had of it is exactly why it would not have happened.



Why on earth would you believe at all that the AFL would force a player with mental health issues to do such a thing?

Why on earth would you believe that the Saints would have agreed to such an appalling thing?

Like I said I didnt
But with our history
Anything is possible

 

[kernelT]

Blake Acres and Ryan Byrnes AFL Stats Comparison

Blake Acres and Ryan Byrnes AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but assume you'd be happy if we give fremantle a 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th rounder for Henry but then throw in Byrnes as a sweetener?

Acres was a slow burn 2019 was a poor year hampered by playing in the ruck, but he'd played some pretty elite games in his time with us.
2016 rd 22 26 disposals, 8 marks, 7 tackles
2017 rd 7 23 disposals, 8 marks, 3 tackles, 2 goals
2017 rd 20 30 disposals, 5 marks, 6 tackles, 1 goal
2017 rd 22 30 disposals, 4 marks, 3 tackles, 1 goal
2018 rd 1 30 disposals, 9 marks, 4 tackles, 1 goal

Byrnes is going okay, but we haven't seen anything remotely like these games yet. Good athlete, meat and potatoes… decent utility.

BTW It's not having a sook 5 years later, it was absolutely said at the time. Probably prefer Serong & Acres (plus 3 picks) in the side than Wood & Hill personally. We're still talking about it now because that trade has set us back years, we paid absurd overs to look like a destination club.

Blake Acres and Bradley Hill AFL Stats Comparison

Blake Acres and Bradley Hill AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

 

[stavro#4]

But anyone half decent would be getting over paid to stay?

The salary floor is an issue for a club like North right now.

They want Simpkin, LDU and Larkey to stay through the dark times so they give them long deals on big money.

Harry Sheezel comes in and wins the BnF in his first year. So his manager says "We want 6 years at 800k"

Well now loyal soldiers like McDonald & Zurhaar are saying "Hey, we stuck with the club during the s**t, when do we get paid?"

From a Saints POV we accept that our list is nowhere near as talented as GWS and yet, if we are paying the minimum and they are paying the max, there's less than $2m between us.

If we delisted our 3 cheapest players and brought in Mabior Chol, Darcy Parish & Ben McKay we would be paying the same as GWS and still be miles off in terms of talent.

How are clubs meant to fix THAT?

You do what we are planning on doing now.

You get your list to a point that you’re pretty confident it wins 10 games a season.

Then you cycle through as much assets as you can into the draft - so that you can keep taking first rounders and raising your ceiling whilst your side has a decent floor to be thereabouts with the 8.

Yours kids - depending on your drafting. Determine how many wins you get over the first 10.

Otherwise you torch the place and do a north or hawthorn. What west coast are about to do.

 

[hayes]

Acres is in the perfect place for a player like him. Not the greatest contested ball winner but plays in a team full of them who constantly feed him the ball and he can use his outside run. Good player but not the team carrying player we hoped he’d be which is fine.

 

[PandaG]

I am happy letting him go for decent compensation only. It has been implied on here that his attitude off-field is less than professional, no idea if it's true.

But one thing about him is that he makes things happen on field. If we had score involvement stats, he'd be one of the top Saints in this category. He's inconsistent and is boom or bust but he has the potential to light up our team, with a bit more maturity and responsibility he could be a Toby Greene type for us.

Highest score involvement player is Jack Higgins at 47 in the league
Gresham sits at 67 (123 score inv.) which for a creative half fwd, mid isn’t on 700k isn’t great.
Toby Green is no. 3 (190)

Gresham is our 2nd best but will
Never be Toby green.
In summary
Losing Gresh wouldn’t be a big loss and based on stats, he is worth 400-500k with incentives a year max.

 

[kernelT]

Highest score involvement player is Jack Higgins at 47 in the league
Gresham sits at 67 (123 score inv.) which for a creative half fwd, mid isn’t on 700k isn’t great.
Toby Green is no. 3 (190)

Gresham is our 2nd best but will
Never be Toby green.
In summary
Losing Gresh wouldn’t be a big loss and based on stats, he is worth 400-500k with incentives a year max.

Weird metric, by that logic you can get rid of every player on our list because they're not Bont, Sicily, Daicos, Cameron or Petracca

 

[sunny3193]

For those that know, not those that are guessing: how do the clubs manage all the players contracts in order to conform to SC?
There must be multiple variations of contracts, permanent components, variable performance based components, injury payments, sums dedicated to attracting FA or non FA talent, that must sum to no more than 105% of the cap nor no less than 95% of the cap.
In other words; each club must construct and manage their cap so they have sufficient flexibility to avoid operating outside the cap parameters.
I doubt it is as simple as paying everyone 95% of their contracts, and then topping up with the remaining 5% at year’s end based on actual performance.
Anyone know?

 

[stavro#4]

For those that know, not those that are guessing: how do the clubs manage all the players contracts in order to conform to SC?
There must be multiple variations of contracts, permanent components, variable performance based components, injury payments, sums dedicated to attracting FA or non FA talent, that must sum to no more than 105% of the cap nor no less than 95% of the cap.
In other words; each club must construct and manage their cap so they have sufficient flexibility to avoid operating outside the cap parameters.
I doubt it is as simple as paying everyone 95% of their contracts, and then topping up with the remaining 5% at year’s end based on actual performance.
Anyone know?

I believe they increase the permanent/guaranteed $$$ portion. Reducing the amount of players with variable portions.

It all needs to fit under the cap.

 

[MordySaint]

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but assume you'd be happy if we give fremantle a 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th rounder for Henry but then throw in Byrnes as a sweetener?

Acres was a slow burn 2019 was a poor year hampered by playing in the ruck, but he'd played some pretty elite games in his time with us.
2016 rd 22 26 disposals, 8 marks, 7 tackles
2017 rd 7 23 disposals, 8 marks, 3 tackles, 2 goals
2017 rd 20 30 disposals, 5 marks, 6 tackles, 1 goal
2017 rd 22 30 disposals, 4 marks, 3 tackles, 1 goal
2018 rd 1 30 disposals, 9 marks, 4 tackles, 1 goal

Byrnes is going okay, but we haven't seen anything remotely like these games yet. Good athlete, meat and potatoes… decent utility.

BTW It's not having a sook 5 years later, it was absolutely said at the time. Probably prefer Serong & Acres (plus 3 picks) in the side than Wood & Hill personally. We're still talking about it now because that trade has set us back years, we paid absurd overs to look like a destination club.

Blake Acres and Bradley Hill AFL Stats Comparison

Blake Acres and Bradley Hill AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Remember he was a Rising Star as well but then again so was Siposs.

The rumours around the traps was that he wanted to go back to WA. I'm starting to see this as more rumour than fact.

This was another one of James Gallaghers trades, he's been moved on and from his Linkedin account it seems as though he is no longer involved in AFL or football in general.

I'm really happy for Blake.

 

[kernelT]

Remember he was a Rising Star as well but then again so was Siposs.

The rumours around the traps was that he wanted to go back to WA. I'm starting to see this as more rumour than fact.

This was another one of James Gallaghers trades, he's been moved on and from his Linkedin account it seems as though he is no longer involved in AFL or football in general.

I'm really happy for Blake.

That old chestnut.

St Kilda midfielder Blake Acre agrees to join Fremantle to unlock Bradley Hill trade deadlock

Saint set to pick Hill trade deadlock by agreeing to Fremantle move

www.foxsports.com.au

"Acres confided in those close to him that he had no choice but to explore the Dockers option but was deeply hurt by St Kilda’s manoeuvre, which will take him away from close friends and a club which has been his home for six years. He is said to feel as if the club backed him into a corner, but is also pragmatic about the opportunities a fresh start will bring."

Gone in 36 hours: The phone call that changed Docker's career

Fremantle recruit Blake Acres has hit his strides in recent weeks after an interrupted start to his Dockers career

www.afl.com.au

"I was pretty settled in Melbourne at the time, but for footy and my professional career it was a really good fit for me. To be able to play the position I wanted to play in for my entire career and not get moved around and play the ruck, and a deep forward role at times and play consistent minutes on the ground [was appealing]."

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Did the boys end up having a mad Monday??