List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[martinson]

Also 2010-15

True. Our record at the draft table isn't flash overall when you look at what some other teams have achieved.

But I'm not blaming anybody. It's a bit of a raffle.

Nonetheless we need to look at where we went wrong and perhaps look at not making the same blues again.

It'll probably be a lot easier the next couple of years with F/S and Academy picks.

 

[SpecialBruce]

Neale will go back to Fremantle either end of this season or next. Will all depend how the players respond to what he said in the media last week.

 

[rye]

Neale will go back to Fremantle either end of this season or next. Will all depend how the players respond to what he said in the media last week.

he wont for a multitude of reasons

 

[M Malice]

Neale will go back to Fremantle either end of this season or next. Will all depend how the players respond to what he said in the media last week.

Chris Fagan said during the week that Lachie was saying exactly what the players themselves pointed out during their review, IMO it was a deliberate tactic by Lachie which would have been run by Fagan, his coaching group and the leadership group.

 

[briztoon]

Doing comparisons like this will only drive you mad. All you can do is assess the talent we have drafted and whether it worked out.

To basically not hit 1 player who is clear best 22, between 2018 and 2020 is tough.

2018 was widely recognised as a very shallow draft, that contained an elite top end.

We traded out of the top end to acquire Neale.

The 2019 draft was seen as weaker than 2018 at the top end, and almost as shallow.

2020 was seen as on par with 2019’s draft, but with a lot more questions surrounding the Victorian crop, due to covid lockdowns.


However, what really set us back was the list management teams pick trading during this period, and lack of intelligence on the shape of the draft, misreading the draft pool, and where the players we liked were situated with in it.

 

[Elixuh]

2018 was widely recognised as a very shallow draft, that contained an elite top end.

We traded out of the top end to acquire Neale.

The 2019 draft was seen as weaker than 2018 at the top end, and almost as shallow.

2020 was seen as on par with 2019’s draft, but with a lot more questions surrounding the Victorian crop, due to covid lockdowns.


However, what really set us back was the list management teams pick trading during this period, and lack of intelligence on the shape of the draft, misreading the draft pool, and where the players we liked were situated with in it.

I should leave this stuff to people who know more about the draft (which is everyone!). My point was a very basic one, that we took 9 picks to the draft during that period and didn't hit 1 established best 22 player, which is tough.

 

[dlanod]

Yep but there really weren't any other better options around those selections.

Edit- I just re looked at those drafts.. I missed that we took Ely Smith in 2018 at pick 21, Xavier O'Halloran went at 22, Bobby Hill at 24 and James Rowbottom at 25.

XOH shits me every game I see him play with my GWS hat on and Hill requested trades out of his club twice. Rowbottom isn't bad but I'm not deeply cut over missing out on him.

 

[briztoon]

I should leave this stuff to people who know more about the draft (which is everyone!). My point was a very basic one, that we took 9 picks to the draft during that period and didn't hit 1 established best 22 player, which is tough.

I don’t have anywhere near the knowledge about all the draftees.

I follow the draft watchers way, way more than the kids themselves. I can build a somewhat accurate picture of a draft crop, but beyond the top end prospects. I know very little.

What I have found is that some draft watchers put together their list based purely on talent, while others lean heavily on talking to recruiters, etc for top 25 lists.

Which list is more accurate? Especially when recruiting teams go in to a season looking for specific holes to fill on a list.


Teams employ psychologists, body language experts, and others to do background checks on the kids.

I have none of that, so I have no idea who is viewed as a possible/probable flight risk.



When Noble took over here, he spoke a lot about going to 3 consecutive drafts to build a core group of talent.

By accelerating our rebuild through trading, it had consequences. We didn’t build the depth of young talent Noble thought we needed.

Some of our pick trading had very poor results for us, and some of that looked quite predictable at the time.

 

[Tom14]

I don’t have anywhere near the knowledge about all the draftees.

I follow the draft watchers way, way more than the kids themselves. I can build a somewhat accurate picture of a draft crop, but beyond the top end prospects. I know very little.

What I have found is that some draft watchers put together their list based purely on talent, while others lean heavily on talking to recruiters, etc for top 25 lists.

Which list is more accurate? Especially when recruiting teams go in to a season looking for specific holes to fill on a list.


Teams employ psychologists, body language experts, and others to do background checks on the kids.

I have none of that, so I have no idea who is viewed as a possible/probable flight risk.



When Noble took over here, he spoke a lot about going to 3 consecutive drafts to build a core group of talent.

By accelerating our rebuild through trading, it had consequences. We didn’t build the depth of young talent Noble thought we needed.

Some of our pick trading had very poor results for us, and some of that looked quite predictable at the time.

Yes, we won the most H&A games from 2019-2023 and were a kick short of the flag. You could be Gold Coast and have a billion first round picks and not make finals for a decade.

I'll never regret deciding to trade away picks in 2018 and our 2019 first to get in Neale and the others. No other player trade cost us worthwhile picks, Dunkley was well worth the future first we gave away.

We made bad picks in 2018-2020, it happens. Trading out of the 2020 draft has been criticised but frankly that draft looks worse as time passes. Ideally we'd have got more from some later picks but it is what it is.

 

[KissKiss]

He’s taller than Rowell, and looks noticeably slimmer than two seasons ago.


On another note, I’m not used to mods agreeing with my “doom & gloom” posts, or seeing mods & ex mods posting similar.

Some of Hollow Knight posts in yesterday’s match day thread were an eye opener.

I still think Dev is another example of us stuffing up a kids development by trying to force them into other roles that really dont suit them. We've tried to play Dev (and certain other junior mids) constantly anywhere but his natural role. We try and run him on the wing (so spends all his time working on running and endurance) or as a pressure forward flanker. Playing all these other roles has never let him focus on his strengths or build the body required for that.

I get that we have had a consistent inside brigade but we have leaned on that way too much. We keep trying to cram natural forwards and wingers inside, while forcing the natural inside mids onto the wing or forward

 

[briztoon]

I still think Dev is another example of us stuffing up a kids development by trying to force them into other roles that really dont suit them. We've tried to play Dev (and certain other junior mids) constantly anywhere but his natural role. We try and run him on the wing (so spends all his time working on running and endurance) or as a pressure forward flanker. Playing all these other roles has never let him focus on his strengths or build the body required for that.

I get that we have had a consistent inside brigade but we have leaned on that way too much. We keep trying to cram natural forwards and wingers inside, while forcing the natural inside mids onto the wing or forward

Certainly agree with all of this.

 

[brisbanelions]

I don’t have anywhere near the knowledge about all the draftees.

I follow the draft watchers way, way more than the kids themselves. I can build a somewhat accurate picture of a draft crop, but beyond the top end prospects. I know very little.

What I have found is that some draft watchers put together their list based purely on talent, while others lean heavily on talking to recruiters, etc for top 25 lists.

Which list is more accurate? Especially when recruiting teams go in to a season looking for specific holes to fill on a list.


Teams employ psychologists, body language experts, and others to do background checks on the kids.

I have none of that, so I have no idea who is viewed as a possible/probable flight risk.



When Noble took over here, he spoke a lot about going to 3 consecutive drafts to build a core group of talent.

By accelerating our rebuild through trading, it had consequences. We didn’t build the depth of young talent Noble thought we needed.

Some of our pick trading had very poor results for us, and some of that looked quite predictable at the time.

I don’t have anywhere near the knowledge about all the draftees.

I follow the draft watchers way, way more than the kids themselves. I can build a somewhat accurate picture of a draft crop, but beyond the top end prospects. I know very little.

What I have found is that some draft watchers put together their list based purely on talent, while others lean heavily on talking to recruiters, etc for top 25 lists.

Which list is more accurate? Especially when recruiting teams go in to a season looking for specific holes to fill on a list.


Teams employ psychologists, body language experts, and others to do background checks on the kids.

I have none of that, so I have no idea who is viewed as a possible/probable flight risk.



When Noble took over here, he spoke a lot about going to 3 consecutive drafts to build a core group of talent.

By accelerating our rebuild through trading, it had consequences. We didn’t build the depth of young talent Noble thought we needed.

Some of our pick trading had very poor results for us, and some of that looked quite predictable at the time.

In my opinion clubs are over complicating drafting. Even with all these experts and all the money spent , the club can still end up with a dud
I would rather keep things simple , and spend the money on experienced talent mgrs around the country who rely on their good old fashioned instinct's ( and that includes speaking to the right people i.e coaches staff at the club, family etc) to determine wether or not a player is draft worthy and not solely on their talents alone.

 

[briztoon]

In my opinion clubs are over complicating drafting. Even with all these experts and all the money spent , the club can still end up with a dud
I would rather keep things simple , and spend the money on experienced talent mgrs around the country who rely on their good old fashioned instinct's ( and that includes speaking to the right people i.e coaches staff at the club, family etc) to determine wether or not a player is draft worthy and not solely on their talents alone.

As far as I’m aware, we have these, and most clubs do as well.

 

[cotter101]

Got to get a ball winner.

 

[Nunez]

Got to get a ball winner.

Will and Levi will be handy.

 

[cotter101]

Will and Levi will be handy.

Should’ve been more specific re depth.

Crazy how much we miss Will after just one season.

 

[Nunez]

Should’ve been more specific re depth.

Crazy how much we miss Will after just one season.

He is THAT good. I think he'll kill it when he comes back this year. Will settle after a month and hit his straps come finals should we make it.

 

[M Malice]

Bored thought bubble.

Levi Ashcroft shows all the signs of being very good straight up in 2025, if Sam Marshall has a really good year and moves up the ratings do we contemplate looking at trading out someone with currency who has not quite lived up to expectations?

eg. Cam Rayner, Zac Bailey

33

Zac Bailey

Age

26

Ht

181cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.7

3star

K

6.9

3star

HB

5.9

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.2

4star

CL

0.9

3star

D

12.9

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

5.6

3star

M

3.9

4star

T

2.4

3star

CL

0.7

3star

D

13.4

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

6.8

5star

M

3.2

4star

T

2.8

5star

CL

0.6

3star

, Jarrod Berry

7

Jarrod Berry

Age

28

Ht

193cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

8.5

3star

HB

8.9

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

7.6

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.1

5star

CL

2.9

4star

D

10.6

3star

K

4.4

2star

HB

6.2

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.8

5star

CL

0.8

3star

. Not all 3, just one.

 

[brisbanelions]

As far as I’m aware, we have these, and most clubs do as well.

Sorry had issues with my iPad. I know we do have them - but your comment I was responding to was

Quote- ‘Teams employ psychologists, body language experts, and others to do background checks on the kids’

The area that needs the most attention is a strengthening and retention of the talent scouts rather than spending what i consider heaps of money on body language experts, focus more on the expertise of the talent scouts themselves. A one stop shop so to speak rather than multiple people essentially doing the same job, that one person can do. Upskill existing talent managers who have a track record of success. If that means getting in talent from other clubs so be it.

Correct me if i am wrong but I heard in WA (this was during the pandemic and the financial issues all clubs were facing with spending caps ,the lions had no representation in WA , could be wrong , I thought that was what I heard).

The club can save money there and spend it where it counts i.e finding the next Wilmot. So bottom line SPEND MORE WISELY and focus on the people that will help us achieve great results well into the future. Can tell you now Fitzroy was almost bankrupt but there scouts were outstanding. Gary Pert, Paul Roos etc They could not afford body language experts. I think you know where I am heading with this.

That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[brisbanelions]

Bored thought bubble.

Levi Ashcroft shows all the signs of being very good straight up in 2025, if Sam Marshall has a really good year and moves up the ratings do we contemplate looking at trading out someone with currency who has not quite lived up to expectations?

eg. Cam Rayner, Zac Bailey, Jarrod Berry. Not all 3, just one.

I would trade Jarrod Berry. Would the suns be interested? Let him join his brother and work out a deal similar to the one Geelong did with them ,was it last year or the year before not sure.They seem in recent years to be willing to trade out their 1st for not that much.

 

[martinson]

Bored thought bubble.

Levi Ashcroft shows all the signs of being very good straight up in 2025, if Sam Marshall has a really good year and moves up the ratings do we contemplate looking at trading out someone with currency who has not quite lived up to expectations?

eg. Cam Rayner, Zac Bailey, Jarrod Berry. Not all 3, just one.

I reckon some of these guys need to show more this year to justify what other clubs would be willing to pay them.

But not of a mind to pitch anyone out who gets a regular game and contributes.

Unless we're reasonably confident of something better in return.

 

[Pride of lions]

Is it poor drafting or poor development? There seems to be a complete lack of improvement in so many players over the last 5 years. That’s why our depth is so shallow.

 

[briztoon]

Sorry had issues with my iPad. I know we do have them - but your comment I was responding to was

Quote- ‘Teams employ psychologists, body language experts, and others to do background checks on the kids’

The area that needs the most attention is a strengthening and retention of the talent scouts rather than spending what i consider heaps of money on body language experts, focus more on the expertise of the talent scouts themselves. A one stop shop so to speak rather than multiple people essentially doing the same job, that one person can do. Upskill existing talent managers who have a track record of success. If that means getting in talent from other clubs so be it.

Correct me if i am wrong but I heard in WA (this was during the pandemic and the financial issues all clubs were facing with spending caps ,the lions had no representation in WA , could be wrong , I thought that was what I heard).

The club can save money there and spend it where it counts i.e finding the next Wilmot. So bottom line SPEND MORE WISELY and focus on the people that will help us achieve great results well into the future. Can tell you now Fitzroy was almost bankrupt but there scouts were outstanding. Gary Pert, Paul Roos etc They could not afford body language experts. I think you know where I am heading with this.

That was the point I was trying to make.

I do not know the workings of recruiting teams, how many people make up a team, etc. Looking at the amount of people in the draft rooms on draft night, some clubs have a lot of recruiting staff, others not so many.

Talent scouts can only do so much, and the figures I've heard recently, many of them are doing it for their love of the game and role, and not for the money. Their primary job is to judge talent, and that includes a lot of coding of the U18 games during the week, not just sitting in the stands on weekends. And there are a LOT of U18 games each week across Vic, SA and WA.

Those psychologists and others, are also footy people and are watching the games as well, judging talent. But they also have a role when it comes to interviewing players and their family, coaches, teaches, etc.

It's not multiple people doing the same job, it's multiple people doing THEIR job, to help the head recruiter put together as complete a picture as possible.

Put it another way, just have talent scouts and none of the others, and we likely end up with more Schache's and less Wilmot's.

As far as I know, we've always had a part time scout in WA. They work weekends and report to Conole. I know one of the posters on the West Coast board knows him personally, rates him very highly.

 

[Sproj]

Is it poor drafting or poor development? There seems to be a complete lack of improvement in so many players over the last 5 years. That’s why our depth is so shallow.

Which, along with the inability to change game plans, move with the times, etc unfortunately points to poor coaching. And honestly, I feel so bad saying it because Fages has been wonderful for the club and deserves all the accolades he gets...but everyone gets stale at some point and unfortunately, the cracks that are now glaring have all been there for some time.

I honestly hope I get proven wrong but a number of players seem to have really stagnated and few of the outside team guys get much of a chance no matter how bad the incumbents go, this does need breed competition for spots or desire to develop to your best if the door is never opened no matter how well you do or if it is, gets slammed on the back of one average showing.

This just does not look a happy group right now, man I hope I end up with egg on my face.

 

[BuntonRules]

Put it another way, just have talent scouts and none of the others, and we likely end up with more Schache's and less Wilmot's.

As far as I know, we've always had a part time scout in WA. They work weekends and report to Conole. I know one of the posters on the West Coast board knows him personally, rates him very highly.

First bit is a given. Well spoke.

Was it not Richard Hadley's old man for a while?