List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[Elixuh]

My only wonder with Rayner is whether Zorko was going to play the connecting role Rayner does and because of injury we can’t do what we were going to do this season.

I still think we have guys who could play rayners role and free him up to play predominantly mid.

 

[Section 5]

Neale, Dunkley, WAshcroft, Berry, McCluggage, Bailey, Rayner maybe even throw in LAshcroft and Dev in a Mid/forward type role and it is a pretty good mix on paper.

Thats what i mean does the club want to pay $1 million per year to a player to play forward/mid/possibly wing/bench.
He sits behind Neale, Dunkley and Ashcroft in most people's thinking, so his midfield time will be restricted.
Hugh playing that F/M role will be fine and he will do well in that role.

Personally, i would move him back to the wing when Ashcroft is ready to resume full time midfield minutes.
But Hugh may want to play midfield and with a new contract being decided the club may agree in principle to that request to keep him.
When Ashcroft is playing his usual midfield minutes there is not much midfield time left for McCluggage and Berry.

Everyone being healthy and 100% this is what i would run with when all available in a month or so time.

Mids: Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft that combo is rock solid.
Relief Mids: Bailey, Lohmann, Reville & Zorko all F/M with Fletcher being introduced to a wing/midfield relief.

Wings: McCluggage, Wilmot, Berry midfield/wing relief.

No Rayner in the midfield for me. Would rather see what stints from Lohmann, Reville & Fletcher produce.
Moving Wilmot and reluctantly Zorko makes room for Starcevich and Bain down back

 

[Sproj]

Do we? I see five good small forwards in your list above even before we get to Rayner. And Levi himself is rated by some draft watchers as being equally good playing as a small forward as he is in midfield.

Without context yes, it looks good but remember Cameron is showing real signs of slowing down and his kicking is also a major concern. Is it an injury or is it age? Hopefully it is just injury and he bounces back but what if he doesn't? In terms of Linc, well as wonderful as he has been, he is at almost the worst possible age to do an ACL. Even if he comes back mid-2025, what kind of player will he be?

Is Bailey, Lohmann, Ah Chee, Rayner, a very green LAshcroft enough? Is Ah Chee even considered a forward or a Mr. Fixit? Is Bailey even that good? Sure he can do some spectacular things but can also do some absolute head scratchers too. Is he a net positive or minus? Also factor in some of them like Ah Chee, Rayner, Bailey and especially LAshcroft are also supposed to do some midfield minutes, it makes this group potentially even lighter on.

Just a lot of questions that we probably could fix in a makeshift way but even if Linc and Charlie come good, how much longer do they really have left in their careers?

 

[briztoon]

A lot of answers will be based on recency bias. Hugh has been out of form this year. Gulden and Warner are in form.

I see Warner as a bit more of a cream on top player. Imo it’d be between Gulden and Hugh and each have slightly different strengths.

Really.

I reckon Hugh is more the cream on top player than Warner. Warner is much more a prime ball winner in the midfield and break from congestion with power and speed.

He’s a player you build a midfield around.

Hugh is a player you add around Warner.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

With this season just about done and dusted re finals I think we should be going with high upside/potential not play a good role/depth players in the MSD, look for players with pace to burn/x factor.. I am still very keen on Frank Szekely.

Unlikely to pay off but we have nothing to lose if we give 2-3 players 6 month stints to show what they have got.

Going over what Twomey was saying about us on Gettable yesterday, it sounds like we're not focusing that much on high upside younger players, as the only one mentioned that we've shown definite interest in is Will McLachlan who is the leading goalkicker in the Talent League.

The rest of the names were mature age: Hayden Crozier (30) from Surfers Paradise (and formerly the Western Bulldogs and Freo), Luke McKay (27) from Woodville West Torrens (and formerly Narrandera), and Billy Cootee (21) from Norwood (and formerly Essendon VFL).

We tried to petition for Crozier to be eligible, but just like Daniel Lloyd it was knocked back. Interestingly on Crozier's social media he has very prominent photos of himself with Lachie Neale and Josh Dunkley (though that one's logical from the Bulldogs connection).

Cootee is an interesting one, he was captain of Essendon VFL at just 20. I watched the first half of the SANFL v WAFL game a week ago and he was one of the more prominent players, set up a couple of good opportunities. Finished with 19 disposals and a goal.

SANFL Showreel, R1: Billy Cootee highlights

Enjoy Billy Cootee's standout SANFL performance for Norwood

www.afl.com.au

 

[briztoon]

The question is where you play Hugh who is about to sign a $1 million a year contract, so he won't be traded.
Also, where does Hugh prefer to play.

Mids: Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft when he returns & Berry at present.

I believe that’s more a question about our style of play and how we use our wingers.

Gulden plays wing for Sydney and is considered one of the most damaging players in the competition.

Put McCluggage on a wing and play through all parts of our midfield, and we can fit Neale, Dunkley, Berry and WAshcroft inside no problem. Even find more time for Rayner in there.

 

[dlanod]

Gulden plays wing for Sydney and is considered one of the most damaging players in the competition.

Gulden played more inside last year in his breakout.

This year he's been pushed out to a wing so is having more of a regression compared to where he was at.

Not substantially different to Hugh playing in the middle vs the wing.

 

[NotQuiteJezza]

I just noticed a name on the MSD list.
Conner McFadyen. He’s being kicking about 2.5 goals a game for Sturt in the SANFL. Now 23. I thought he was unlucky when he was at the Lions through he own injury and the lack of injuries at the time he with the club. A bigger body 3rd forward/mid. Great set of hands.

 

[knaf]

Inside mids:
Neale, Berry, Dunkley, WAshcroft, LAshcroft, Robertson/Tunstill, Marshall

Outside mids:
Sharp, Fletcher, McCluggage, LAshcroft, Marshall, Reville

Small Forwards:
Bailey, Lohmann, Cameron, McCarthy, Ah Chee, Rayner

To me, Rayner has to be a permanent small/medium forward and needs to be told that is his role moving forward. If we need to put him into the midfield ONCE a game do it but otherwise, just give him a simple role for the rest of the season and let him sink or swim. If he continues to sink, let him go.

Basically, the above is what we should build now moving forward. Obviously, in terms of draft / trade, if we do finish low on the ladder this year and sneak a player in before LAshcroft, I'm telling you, we need a small forward - unless I am missing someone, we are looking light on in that area. I'd still really like to get Ainswerth and I would be happy to let Cam walk to get him because at least Ben works his butt off.

“I'd still really like to get Ainswerth and I would be happy to let Cam walk to get him because at least Ben works his butt off.”

I don’t agree, if we trade Rayner out we should try to get maximum value trade picks to match fatherson/academy picks of players that fill gaps in our list profile I don’t think we will get a first for Cam, but we could get a group of lower picks of equal points. We still need list places so we can take all the picks to the draft I acknowledge.

But I would prefer any trade currency we get from a trade for any player to be used for a “mini rebuild” than invest in Ainsworth.

I like the list you provided above. To cut from the small forward part
“Small Forwards:
Bailey, Lohmann, Cameron, McCarthy, Ah Chee, Rayner”
Dropping Rayner from that list and adding Ainsworth doesn’t really change the list much. I acknowledge Ainsworth might provide more consistent effort.

 

[Jim Stynes11]

If Cameron and McCarthy weren't able to start next season, for whatever reason, we could still start the season with a small forward and half forward quartet of Cal Ah Chee, Kia Lohmann, Zac Bailey and Levi Ashcroft.

They missed a trick here

 

[Jim Stynes11]

Regarding Clug, and his worth to / place in this team.

It seemed to me that Hugh struggled to find form the first half of last year, while Will was in the team. His form came good after Will's injury.
I don't get to see many games live as I live in WA, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but where does Hugh fit in our most balanced midfield selection when everyone is fit?
Does he go back to a wing / midfielder where he is carrying out a role where the value is not what the average mug watching on the tv can understand?

 

[TheCattery2007]

I’m hearing rumours that you guys are interested in Campbell Grey (Essendon VFL).

Started as a backman until they moved him forward about 4 weeks ago. Since then he’s kicked 2,3,2 and 2 goals.

Replacement for the great Linc McCarthy?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Nathan Barley]

I’m hearing rumours that you guys are interested in Campbell Grey (Essendon VFL).

Started as a backman until they moved him forward about 4 weeks ago. Since then he’s kicked 2,3,2 and 2 goals.

Replacement for the great Linc McCarthy?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Looks more like a KPP

Any idea how old he is?

 

[Toffee Lion]

Regarding Clug, and his worth to / place in this team.

It seemed to me that Hugh struggled to find form the first half of last year, while Will was in the team. His form came good after Will's injury.
I don't get to see many games live as I live in WA, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but where does Hugh fit in our most balanced midfield selection when everyone is fit?
Does he go back to a wing / midfielder where he is carrying out a role where the value is not what the average mug watching on the tv can understand?

He would primarily be played on the wing moving forward, with some small minutes in the middle.

Don't forget, it's not just Will coming back but also Levi's arrival next year who will further add to the dilemma you brought up. One that I also noticed last year.

We'll be paying quite a lot of coin for a wingmen but Clug is an AA-level wingman and maybe it's something we are missing right now. A big price to pay but if it helps our shape & setup, maybe it's worth it.

 

[davemc_lions]

The question is where you play Hugh who is about to sign a $1 million a year contract, so he won't be traded.
Also, where does Hugh prefer to play.

Mids: Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft when he returns & Berry at present.

Needs to go back to the wing. He is a great winger

 

[p4p1]

Is Bailey, Lohmann, Ah Chee, Rayner, a very green LAshcroft enough? Is Ah Chee even considered a forward or a Mr. Fixit? Is Bailey even that good? Sure he can do some spectacular things but can also do some absolute head scratchers too. Is he a net positive or minus? Also factor in some of them like Ah Chee, Rayner, Bailey and especially LAshcroft are also supposed to do some midfield minutes, it makes this group potentially even lighter on.

I am a big fan of Bailey, I don't think he is a pure midfielder but his strengths as a forward do outweigh his weaknesses IMO. Every team needs small forwards that can make something out of nothing and Bailey is absolutely one of those players. I would have him in the team over Rayner personally.

 

[Tom14]

Hugh has been a good midfielder for the most part and depsite recent form, it is a waste to stick him on a wing.

Wingers should be focused on defensive running and offering width, which he never did as the skinny winger.

Keep him rotating through the mids. He was our best mid in the grand final and I'm not worried about his form drop off being a permanent issue this year.

 

[Jim Stynes11]

Hugh has been a good midfielder for the most part and depsite recent form, it is a waste to stick him on a wing.

Wingers should be focused on defensive running and offering width, which he never did as the skinny winger.

Keep him rotating through the mids. He was our best mid in the grand final and I'm not worried about his form drop off being a permanent issue this year.

So, assuming everybody is fit next year - what do you see our best, most balanced mf?

While I don't disagree with your point in isolation, I think the team is better collectively with Clug predominantly on the wing

 

[Clarkythelion]

I think when we access players we should debate their merits to the team, how they are playing, their contribution and no doubt what they are worth on the market and who we might get in return.

However there is a % of a player, maybe only small, that we could say, "brings people through the gates".

Having sat at the Gabba for some 24 or 5 years now, even surrounded by long term members there are often seats sold to new prospecting members and indeed competitors supporters. It's just interesting to listen to the crowds over the years. The sheer brutal force of Voss, the headlong attack of Browny, Aker and the Lions chant, there have been many, some just special but Charlie and Country Roads, the chance to sing the song, the protest to get it at the Grand Final - yep people come for that and you can hear them talking about it. seeing 8 years olds singing along is just great.

Charlie on his day is fantastic to watch and the sing along get bigger and louder each year, he makes money for the club. Not defending his form, he is not a game winner in my mind more of a fair weather sailer and I wish he would kick straighter in those big moments. Like a lot, some, on here I could see a trade and I'd get over it but then I think of the club and the Brisbane market, the Broncos have their young gun Reece Lightening and are building a future around him. Until we have another crowd puller like Charlie I've decided, pretty much today, we need to hang onto him and maybe change our expectations that we are happy if he is our 4th or 5th because he is giving us new memberships and revenue.

 

[p4p1]

I was looking at the possible first team (without injuries) early next year. It isn't perfect but it highlights some problems facing some of the automatically selected players. I am sure there will be some players that I have missed that those who watch the VFL etc will have more knowledge of than me.

FB: Starcevich Payne Andrews
HB: Coleman Lester Willmott
C: McCluggage Neale Fletcher
HF: Ah Chee Hipwood McCarthy
FF: Cameron Daniher Rayner
Foll:McInerny Dunkley Berry
Int: W Ashcroft, Lohman, Bailey, L Ashcroft
Sub/s: Zorko, McKenna, Morris, Sharp, Reville, Brain, Answorth

Possible inside mid rotations Neale, Dunkley, Berry, W Ashcroft, Rayner, Bailey, McCluggage, Answorth, McCarthy, Fletcher, L Ashcroft and Cameron.
Possible Wing Rotations McCluggage, Fletcher, Lohmann, Wilmmot, Bailey, Ah Chee, W Ashcroft, L Ashcroft and McCarthy.

My safe players are: Starce, Payne, Andrews, Coleman, Willmott, Clugg, Neale, Fletcher, Hipwood, Cameron, Daniher, W Ashcroft and Bailey.
I will put Levi in his own space as safe because we aren't drafting to us for him to play in the 2s and he isn't nominating F/S to play in the 2s.
Under pressure players in this 22 are: Ah Chee, Lester, McCarthy, Rayner, Lohman, Zorko.
Players applying pressure to the first 22 are: Answorth, Sharp, Reville, Morris, Gardiner, Doedee.
Good enough to apply pressure but unlikely to because of their positions: Robertson, Tunstill,

Could be anything:
Zakostelsky - I don't want to discount anyone who's profile points to them being a bit of a physical freak. I admittedly haven't watched him and have only read about him and seen some highlights but his athleticism could have him play just about anywhere on the ground.

We have some good depth in most positions, I dare say more than we could ask for. The only place we lack any kind of depth is key forward and ruck. I don't think you need much ruck depth in todays game. You don't need two elite rucks you just need one. It is an area we are missing but there is no point drafting any rucks for depth. Fort is a perfect backup ruck and if we had a Gawn or Grundy, O would be an even better backup.
Key forward depth is hard, the top key forwards are all 6'5 or over now, there is only so many of those guys born, they command big pay. We can try and develop some in the twos but realistically, when Joe is cooked/calls it quits we need to look to free agency and land a big fish.

 

[p4p1]

Hugh has been a good midfielder for the most part and depsite recent form, it is a waste to stick him on a wing.

Wingers should be focused on defensive running and offering width, which he never did as the skinny winger.

Keep him rotating through the mids. He was our best mid in the grand final and I'm not worried about his form drop off being a permanent issue this year.

The problem is that he doesn't have a burst of speed or the strength to break through congestion. He does it with fancy footwork but also gets caught out far too much. In space he is a weapon. With Will coming back, Berry showing he is better inside than outside, and next year having Levi coming into the side, it is almost a no brainer to push Hugh back out to a wing. If we pushed Hugh out there, we IMO would need to look at how we use our wings with Fletcher and Clugg as our wingers.

 

[Tom14]

The problem is that he doesn't have a burst of speed or the strength to break through congestion. He does it with fancy footwork but also gets caught out far too much. In space he is a weapon. With Will coming back, Berry showing he is better inside than outside, and next year having Levi coming into the side, it is almost a no brainer to push Hugh back out to a wing. If we pushed Hugh out there, we IMO would need to look at how we use our wings with Fletcher and Clugg as our wingers.

Him getting caught did not really happen at all last year or in 2021 when he had an extended run in the middle. It’s a form issue and I wonder whether he’s just trying to do too much now.

 

[Tom14]

So, assuming everybody is fit next year - what do you see our best, most balanced mf?

While I don't disagree with your point in isolation, I think the team is better collectively with Clug predominantly on the wing

Neale, Dunkley, clug, with Ashcroft first rotation and berry splitting his time 50-50 inside mid and wing. Fletcher permanent winger with a few mins for Levi as well on ball and on the wing.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The problem is that he doesn't have a burst of speed or the strength to break through congestion. He does it with fancy footwork but also gets caught out far too much. In space he is a weapon. With Will coming back, Berry showing he is better inside than outside, and next year having Levi coming into the side, it is almost a no brainer to push Hugh back out to a wing. If we pushed Hugh out there, we IMO would need to look at how we use our wings with Fletcher and Clugg as our wingers.

Agree 100% with this. Just because other sides have undervalued wingers, it doesn't mean we have to. Hard to stop a team that can drive through the corridor and both wings.

 

[dlanod]

Him getting caught did not really happen at all last year or in 2021 when he had an extended run in the middle. It’s a form issue and I wonder whether he’s just trying to do too much now.

Can't tell with any certainty on TV, but I also wonder whether he gets caught because he's trying to hit a clean target and we're not getting as much separation up there as we were previously.